Driving Ex to suicide over contact with DD

[tippytap]

I split up with my ex-partner 3 years ago. Our DD is now four and contact between us is agreed.

The problem is "extra" contact. My ex regularly (at least once a fortnight) contacts me wanting to see our DD on days that we have agreed are mine to spend with her.

In the past, to try to keep things friendly, my ex has come round on my days off, when I am at home with DD, for an hour or so. To be honest, I found this very stressful, but thought that I was being nice.

I then realised that whenever I asked to see our DD when it was his time to see her, or even to have her brought home half hour early, I was always told "no".

His reason being, that as I see DD more than him, I should always agree to him seeing her whenever he wants, whereas his time is "precious" and there is no flexibility to be had.

I've tried to point out the unfairness in this and that I don't take the mick and honestly don't think that requesting our DD be brought home half hour early on a Bank Holiday MOnday - when her has her EVERY Monday and so every Bank Holiday Monday is unreasonable.

Today was the second time in a month that he has asked to see our DD on a Weds. I work 30 hrs/week and as it's half term, I booked the week off of work specifically to spend time with our DD. Bearing in mind my Ex had our DD Sat/Sun and Mon of this week, I said no to him coming over on Wednesday and "taking her out" for our couple of hours.

I then overheard him talking to our DD on the phone this evening to the effect that if anything happened to him, his parents would look after her. I took the phone from our DD and asked what was going on. He was crying and told me that I'd driven him to the edge.

This is not the first time he's threatened to kill himself. The last time was only a couple of weeks ago, when I again said that he couldn't see DD on a day that I had her.

In the past my Ex has been very controlling bullying towards me. His justification is that it was my fault for not standing up for myself. When we were together, he threatened suicide when I was going to leave him after I found out about his (first) affair.

This though, has just made me so angry.

I am sorry if he has mental health issues, but he should not be saying things like this to our DD and I plan on sending him an email explaining this and that if he's not well, he should be seeking appropriate treatment.

To be honest, I don't know if he's serious, or if it's a reaction to not getting his own way, and that makes me feel guilty - that I'm doubting that he is ill and if he is, that as he says, it's my fault for making him ill.

Not sure why I'm posting this really and it is a bit long.

I think that I sound very uncaring, don't I?

I just don't know what to do.

T

The Citizens Bureau should have a list of Solicitors specialising in Family Law.
Many give a free half hour or charge £5 for a half an hour's advice.
The CAB will have a list of solicitors who offer this service.
I would have a list of questions ready to ask so that the time isn't wasted, and then you should be able to decide whether he/she is the right solicitor to meet you and your littlie's needs.
Until then, I wouldn't be letting him near her.

Grace

I don't think he looks at our DD as a toy. I know in his way, that he loves her, but it's more that she's "his". It helps, I think that she is the spitting image of him. Fortunately, she's like me in her personality.

I know I'm not a person to him. Seven years with him taught me that much. He can't understand it now, when I don't agree with him.

I have stopped the extra access, that's why I've had two suicide threats in a month.

Marjorie - I will definitely be calling the CAB. Luckily, it's my weekend with DD this weekend. Hopefully, I should be able to get an appointment before next weekend. At least I'll know where I stand.

I have a sinking feeling though, that my previous solicitor was right - as he's "ill", that contact will not be restricted. AS he so charmingly put it, he doesn't see his DD much more than a drug abusing alcoholic would.

He sounds awful, really manipulative.
Try to find a family lawyer who does a lot of children work, rather than mainly divorce/arguing over money.

Good luck.

Oh, of course, I missed the part about stopping the extra access. How marvellous for you, to have the power of life & death so easily over him!

This was written by Sam Vaknin, who is a Narcissist and an expert on NPD:

"The Narcissistic parent regards his or her child as a multi-faceted source of Narcissistic Supply. The child is considered and treated as an extension of the narcissist's personality.

"It is through the child that the narcissist seeks to settle "open scores" with the world. The child is supposed to realize the unfulfilled grandiose dreams and fantasies of the narcissistic parent."

samvak.tripod.com/4.html

He only loves her because he loves himself. Don't be deceived by appearanes.

Oh god.

OK, I'm doing an internet diagnosis. Your ex is behaving in a psychiatrically disordered manner (suicide threats), he is behaving with a sense of extreme entitlement (extra access), and he is emotionally abusing you and DD. All of the above are causes for serious concern. Alarm, even.

With prolonged exposure, you kind of get accustomed to this and forget how completely bloody alien it is, looked at with fresh eyes!

I am sorry for the shock. But I would move a mountain or two to limit DD's access, given the above.

Grace,

Very scarey stuff. I'll keep to the contact that we've agreed and no more.
I'm drafting an email to send him tomorrow. May post it on here.

I'll also send a copy to his mum - she is probably the only person he'll listen too. I don't expect much from her, but if she agrees that he should never speak to DD like that again, at least it'll be something.

how dare he manipulate your daughter in this way

Ensure you keep copies/records of any dialogue between you, i.e. emails, etc.

That'd be cool, and I'm sure mothers with comparable experiences will support you here

It's great to hear his mum's got her head screwed on - and quite an unusual bonus! Hope she comes through for you.

I am really sorry for the heavy hit. It's just sometimes the best way to break out of the "FOG" (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) that surrounds people involved with abusive personalities.

Somebody else might come along, tomorrow, with specific info for you about this kind of co-parent. It's not pretty and Sam Vaknin pulls no punches; hopefully you'll find a way to see XP for all he really is, without giving yourself nightmares!

You sound like a brilliant mum. Good luck with the CAB - and well done for not crumbling unser the pressure

What a complete knob this man is. Tell him (via email if you prefer) that you are stopping any kind of unsupervised contact because he is scaring and upsetting DD and he can take you to court if he wants but it won't do him any good. Oh and if he's going to kill himself will he try not to leave a mess?

Honestly, love, this is all an attempt to stamp his ickle feet, get his own way and cause you distress. The best way to deal with it is mildly amused contempt - and amass evidence to take to court of the threats etc so you can insist on third-party supervised contact only.

I don't know the history here, only what you have written, your ex sounds very unwell. The controlling thing and threats, he just sounds mentally unstable right now. He sounds like in keeping his relationship with your dd, he feels like he has some control in his life, and that he is not loosing her as he has lost you. From what you say he has had an affair, and you have quite righly left him due to that. The affair, the controlling nature etc, the being close to dd, it is all adding up with the suicide threats to someone who is very ill mentally, as happy mentally together people don't have affairs when married with kids, they go to relate or leave or sort themselves and the marriage out, they don't go looking elsewhere to make them happy.

I actually disagree with others, I think the suicide threat is something he is seriously considering, he may not carry it through, it does not mean to say he is not so ill that he is feeling suicidal.

Now for your dd, this is not fair on her being torn between his mental illness. I have done the solicitors and court thing with a mentally ill, drug induced ex husband who was abusive and knew how to play the system thanks to his g/f and her mother. He managed to put on a good show when needed, I did not find out till the end of the court case how mentally ill he was! I was so confused by all the odd things that were going on. The thing I want to share with you, is that often you are not believed in court, you come across as a bitter ex wife, he will most likely if he is ill have a warped twisted view of things, if he has had affairs he will be used to making up and telling lies, and he will destroy you. Luckily for me ex did not want the kids, it was a ruse to make it look like i was stopping contact when that was not the case so he could get those around him off his back, but some men do lie and cheat to get full contact, so acutally I would advise against involving solicitors and courts.

What I would advise, is for you to have a think about your ex as you know him best, put your feelings of hatred towards him asside and think for your dd what is best, she needs a well involved father in her life, not an ill man or a dead man. You are not here to be his savior at all, he no doubt has family to section him etc, what you can do is remove his fear, you can without causing a loss in control, make him feel less out of control and if you are kind and freindly he may listen to you when you tell him that he is ill so that he can get the help he so needs, as being his enemy he will just fight you, and hurt you and dd!

good luck x

The suicidal moanings to a 4 year old are definitely abusive and possibly dangerous. I'd be lloking at reducing access until he is mentally stable.
On the other hand if he lives nearby then going a week between seeing his daughter is a long time and would a more equitable access arrangement be better when he's mentally fine? How many mothers would like to go a week regularly between seeing their kids?
If your daughter enjoys her time with him then this may be a good idea and fairer.
If my kids' dad threatened suicide and particularly emotionally blackmailed them in this way he'd be getting less contact rather than more though.
Don't contact emergency services. This sin't an emergency, they have real emergencies to deal with. An exwife sending a blue light ambulance round after a manipulative phone call will make you look as barking as him.

I'm not defending him. But if I saw my DC once a week or every other week I'd feel suicidal. Can you get his mum to get him to see a doctor?

Sometimes you can't win with these men in the legal system, look up on facebook, protecting children from legalised abuse, the courts thing will probably make things worse for you, from personal experience, you are better off getting professional help yourself to learn to handle the ex, and keep you and dd safe as possible, that is what I had to do as courts and police etc are great initially, they normally work out ways to get around it, they abuse you infront of kids where there are no witness's and courts don't protect you, I had a death threat from ex, you still have to do contact handovers yourself through courts, you can tell your solicitor and cafcass till you are blue in the face that he has been saying weird things to your kids and you think he is on drugs and they think you are the one causing the problems and the bitter one the more you tell them, trust me, that happened to me and so many others, they don't care, sorry but they just don't care about the mother, it is all about the child having contact, and if father is coming across as ok, and not slashing his wrists infront of them, they say the death threats of him wanting to kill me were a one off, and the same will be said for your ex who will most likely deny he said it, my ex had a police download of his threat and it made no difference to cafcass or the judge!

I brought the children against their father's wishes to see him somewhere where he had no control over it, and it made him angry, he rejected kids, although one dd went over to him to talk, he did not go near the other dd, this was actually good for the children in the long run, dd1 got to ask for a hug and to emotionally say goodbye to him, dd2 stopped her fantasy of him and remembered what he was like and even though it hurt her like hell, she realised that he was as her child's memory was, also it protects them later in life from fathers lies he may tell them, they are not sure that he rejected them and was not normal towards them again at this age, that i am not making anything up, as I am sure he will lie to them when older about things!

It is really at the end of the day all about empowering yourself and your child, and at the end of the day you have deal with him yourself, people can't really help you, even domestic abuser advisors, at the end of the day and I work for one p/t as a volunteer, advise that people in your position that the end of it will happen when you learn to manage the relationship with your ex, and be strong yourself, counselling for you is the best option, it will give you an understanding of what you are dealing with regards to the ex, and help you with boundaries and thinking for yourself, not to mention what drew you to someone like that in the first place, good luck x

You need to change your solicitor.

Worth having the facility to record his phone calls to DD somehow?

Recorded conversations are only admissable in court if an answerphone message, or if you say "I am recording this conversation, and it may be used as evidence against you in a court of law", normally people care a lot more carefull what they say when you do that, got that from the police! you can't get these men, you really are better off learning to handle him and being smart x been there done it!

Thought I would send you a link, some ladies I have been in touch with set this up and have been working on the very issue you are discussing here, happily I am not in need of working to sort this mess out, I am happy to walk away from family courts hell! Even fathers call it hell at the end of the day! It is all very well for folk who don't have to deal with it to advise you to go through courts etc, it is not them having to do it, and they have not experienced it themselves to know how emotionally draining and financially difficult it is, can cost five figures to go back and forth, for an abuse case, which will go on for over a year, you and your kids will be interviewed by cafcass and psychiatrists as will your ex, and in one assessment a liar can lie and not get the assessment they need, as unless they tell the truth the psychiatrist will not be able to evaluate them... My dd was fuming as her father who was normally not interested in her, was all over her like a rash when the psychiatrist was evaluating their relationship, what was good as was at the end of the day, was at least with that child the psychiatrist made comments that the relationship was odd and critised ex for his odd behaviour with dd! Sadly other dd fell for ex's charms the younger one and she was so glad he was giving her attention she feel for his game, which ended as soon as he was not infront of psychiatrist, she is the one he did not go near recently, after not having seen her for over a year!

www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/group.php?gid=79880221892

I am in a similar situation with my ex.

The courts/solicitors etc. cannot do anything to prevent what MIGHT happen (which I think is wrong!)

My ex is mentally ill, has made 3 suicide attempts and was emotionally/psychologically abusive to me throughout our 9yr relationship. It's only looking back on it from the outside that I can see this. (after doing some research on the subject.)
He is having daily visits from the community psychiatric team- but they have apparently said that, as he SAYS so many of his problems are because of not seeing the children enough, (and I have given unlimited access so far except for a 2 week period after he was voluntarily committed!) that he SHOULD have more access and are supporting him to do so?!

Before his illness had become apparent, I had agreed that once he had a suitable home etc I would agree to joint custody- and I meant it- but since then he has deteriorated and I'm not comfortable with that. But because it's ME changing MY mind- I'm the bad one!

He was an alcoholic, who only stopped drinking recently after landing in hospital with liver failure, he has used drug etc, etc and STILL he is getting support and I am told I can only act if he kidnaps the children or harms them or himself in front of them.

It's wrong.

I know I'm not much help, but the one good thing my solicitor DID say is that until a court order is drawn up- the parent with residency (you) has every right to stop or restrict access if they feel it is necessary.

I have requested to join that group, too, Mummiehunnie.

Slightly scatty, I am so sorry that you have had that sort of rubbish in your's and your child's live, goodness it never seems to end!

It was good that you responded so that people can see that the system is so very wrong, I hope that someone has the guts to fight it all with the new government, I have lost all will to fight cafcass myself, they need an independant authority to oversee them, it is a crazy system at present! fingers crossed someone with the strength will sort it, out x

womans aid should be able to recommend a good family law solicitor in your area

talking to them anyway might be an idea

his treatment of your DD needs to stop now