Today my therapist told me to give DH an ultimatum

[RedNinaBlue]

Either change his behaviour, or I walk.

The situation: DH works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, from our home and still misses nearly every one of his work deadlines. He is unhappy and stressed, and shouty and angry with me as a result. We spend no time together or only occasionally if I put my foot down and have a big scene about it. I think he needs to see a behaviour therapist to sort out his issues with work and deadlines. However, since he has not done so despite prompting, we are instead seeing a couples therapist to discuss my unhappiness with the situation.

Today, in an individual session, my therapist told me it was time to give him an ultimatum, since DH won't even acknowledge his responsibility in my unhappiness (or his own), let alone start making improvements. The change I want is for him to clearly separate "work time" and "personal time", ideally confining work to an office outside our home which he has the use of. This is a monumental, unfair demand that he cannot cope with, for DH (his workload controls him, rather than the other way around, IMO).

I have been lurking on many of the MN Relationship threads, and can report that:

• my DH is not abusive, not violent, and not a narcissist.
• we love each other, enjoy each other's company (when we have any time together), give each other lots of affection and comfort
• we have shared values and goals in life.

I suspect my therapist is right about an ultimatum being necessary, as change has clearly not been forthcoming any other way, but I am afraid:

• I will not make a threat lightly, which means if I issue an ultimatum I should be ready to emotionally sever myself from him. I don't think I'm there yet. If DH says he prefers to split, I will be devastated.

• My DH clearly has a problem and is hurting. He just can't SEE it. If I give him an ultimatum, HE will be devastated because he will see it as me hitting him while he is down. (No other methods have worked though -- I've tried everything I can think of).

• Also, I am 31, and we have just started TTC. I badly want a child. I feel torn between thinking I should get back on the pill immediately until this issue with my husband is sorted one way or another, and thinking "fuck him, why should I put having children on hold just because he's being a neglectful arse? Chances are we'll sort it out, and if not I can deal with being a single parent." (I am not dependent on him financially: I am in a very stable career with good pay and excellent flexibility for working parents).

WWYD in this situation?

I don't see how you can have a relationship if he's working 20 hours a day, 7 days a week. When do you get to see him?

Plumm: we don't have much facetime at all, no; hardly any. Hence my unhappiness and the couples therapy to try to sort this out.

Gichin: his long hours of work are not for both our sakes, really, at least in practical terms. I pay all the bills. I do, however, support his having his own ambition and career (obviously), which is what he is working towards with the long hours (which are not quite so long for others in the same line of work, hence my thinking that he has a definite problem that needs sorting out).

I don't think having a baby with someone you barely see is a good idea. I think I agree with your therapist.

Gichin: it's not for both their sakes, is it, if it's impacting so badly on the relationship? Plus he seems to be working very inefficiently. Not even the Prime Minister works 20 hours a day, it can't be necessary. He must be doing something wrong

I understand your desire for a baby but i think that adding a child into the mix will help nobody, if you can put TTC on hold i think it would be a good thing. You wouldnt want to ffw a few years and nothing to have changed and for him to be shouty/angry/grumpy with you toddler/young child would you.

Sounds like he is in a bad place and needs help to get out of it. It also sounds like you want it to work out.

I can see that an ultimatum is probably necessary but can understand why you are afraid.

However, an ultimatum might be what he needs to see that his behaviour needs to change. If you issue the ultimatum and he doesn't give the right response you say you will be devastated. Then you say he will be devastated if you issue the ultimatum.

It sounds like a long term issue that is coming to a head and does need to be addressed. In this situation I would issue the ultimatum and hope it works out but try to prepare (however difficult) that it might not.

I had a similar ultimatum issue with DH a couple of years ago and prepared myself for the worst but in the end (after some difficult emotional times for both of us) it worked out for the best and we are stronger than we ever were.

I was in a very similar situation with XH. Obviously no two problems are alike, but in my case I did well to leave.

My XH only sat up and took notice when there was the immediate threat of my leaving. We went to Relate for a few months and things were a bit better, but quickly went back to old patterns.

In the end I knew his work was all consuming and would always come ahead of me, and critically, ahead of any child we might have together. And my theoretical child deserved better than that (as did I).

I was nearly 31 when I left him and we'd been TTC for about 1.5 years (I have PCOS and we had the added issue of him having very little interest in sex).

Wouldn't you rather leave now and give yourself the opportunity to be with someone who wants a true partnership and a real relationship? It is not too late for you.

Thanks for your responses so far. Jasmeen, that's encouraging that you got through something similar.

Dittany: no, he's not addicted to his work. he's absolutely miserable about it: he's failing at establishing himself, and is responding by working all day and night, rather than seeing what it would take to work better

There is no way he is working 20 hours a day. Is he on a computer? Could he be doing something there that is making him feel guilty, therefore shouting and snapping at you? Or do you put this aspect of things down to the fact that he is getting 4 hours of sleep a night? Or is he gambling, not even at day-trading?

Could he be depressed, ignoring his depression by pouring himself into work, hoping it will go away?

Is he somehow trying to outdo you in your successful career by working himself to the point of collapse? How does he feel deep down about you being 'the successful one' at this point? Does he feel emasculated by you paying all the bills? (Not your fault of course)

In the end, it doesn't matter what he's feeling or why it matters if it's a matter of porn or online betting or gaming to the exclusion of RL, which is another possibility what matters is whether he accepts that what he's doing is causing a problem. And I can see your counsellor's point. No way should you issue an ultimatum unless you are willing to follow through. You may be in for some pain in the short term.

I would stop ttc immediately, before anything else.

Get yer contraception back out love. One problem at a time, if you value your sanity.

Second that, bibbity. If you were much much older and this was your last shot at getting pregnant, then maybe I could see it. But not at 31, there's still lots of time. Don't bring a baby into this, it isn't fair on either of you (or the baby).

mathanxiety: I count an average of 4 hours sleep a night, but you're right, he's not working the rest of the 20: he's at his computer, on timewasting websites for part of those 20 hours (how much I don't know). Not porn or gambling, though.

Damnit, I really don't want to go back on the pill. Maybe I should force the issue by reinstating contraception via condom, so he is actually faced with one example of what his work/life balance is costing us.

It seems odd for a therapist to "tell you" to do something so drmatic with your life but I can see that you need to really get through to him. Which must be a tad difficult, since you only get 4 hours a day together and need to sleep then!

I'm like your DH. I understand my ishoos but, as you know, it's not as easy as going "Oh, yes, I'll just alter a vast chunk of my personality because it's inefficient." Obviously I don't know him but, if I were on the receiving end of your ultimatum, it might possibly make me worse ... because the problem is underpinned by insecurity. As you implied (I think) about DH, I would see it as yet another thing I couldn't do 'perfectly' in the time available.

I have posters to remind me there is such a thing as good enough! Is there any chance you can sit him down - or, rather, drag him forcibly out to a cafe - to point out his horrible work/life imbalance and insist on hammering out a 'good enough' plan?

I'd be interested to hear how far you've got with this kind of thing so far. When I lived near my friends, they would take me away from my desk. Of course, that improves the next day's work, but I rarely see that when I'm engrossed.

Do not get pregnant, for the love of God.

can you take him away somewhere - drag him if you have to and do a sort of one-woman intervention on him? not necessarily issue an ultimatum but say you cannot see a future of things continue as they are. He sounds like he has got into a terrible mess - he probably can't see his way out. Maybe he will thank you for helping him (one day)

What is he doing? Is it something he has any chance of succeeding at, or is it some wanky pipedream/get rich quick scheme?
Even if it is something worthwhile that happens to be timeconsuming and difficult, you matter too. Your life is worth more than being spent supporting a man in a futile dream.
FFS don't get pregnant. This is guaranteed to make a crap situation a disastrous one.

I expect, actually, that your H is a selfish knob who has brainwashed you into thinking that you are secondary to his wonderful important uniqueness, and that is what your therapist is trying to get you to see and act on.

Glad you said that, SGB I'm getting worried about being labelled an abuser-spotter!

I was in a similar situation, although not as extreme as yours... and in my case it was my ultimatum that saved our relationship. We had endless discussions in which he'd promise things would get better, but they didn't. He didn't wake up and smell the coffee until one day he came back from work after midnight (!!!) and found me looking for a flat, ready to move out.

This was 2 months ago, and apart from the days he needs to travel, I don't remember a single day he's been home after 7 pm. And no work in the weekends.

Believe me, unless you give him an ultimatum, he will never change. Why would he, if he knows you'll always be there no matter how many hours he works?

Oh, and if you have a child with this man before you fix this issue, get ready to care for the baby completely on your own.

SGB: he's a researcher, doing pretty high end stuff, and certainly has the intelligence for it. So it's not a wanky pipe dream: he could be very successful, if only he met those damn deadlines for publishing papers. As it is, his publication record is not good. This is pretty much all that he can see, hence the stress and shoutiness, and working all hours. Last night he slept half an hour only before getting back up to work on yet another deadline he is late for.

I am not a victim of abuse: I am in no danger of losing sight of the respect I deserve. This is why I have taken us to therapy. It is also why I have been insisting that he needs to manage his time better: I have tried laying out the problem unemotionally and emotionally, trying to get him to open up about his problems, getting angry, letting things go for a while to see if change was forthcoming... Nothing has made an appreciable difference to the amount of time he has for himself, or for me. Things get better for a about a week, and then return to the way they were before.

I know that drastic action is the only tool I have left. I just wish there were a way to know for sure that an ultimatum will not cost me all that is good about the relationship (see OP). Obviously that is not possible, and I am v v frightened.

RedNinaBlue - I had a similiar situation with my DH couple of years ago. He was working 7 days a week, between 12 and 15 hours a day. Despite all this he was constantly behind in work. He was also very moody and bad tempered with me. Without getting into specifics this was all linkred to a mental health problem that he was finally diagnosed with. it effected his concentration so that for large chunks of time he was not working due to the torment in his head. Also it shattered his confidence so what he did do in work he constantly had to recheck or run past other people so taking even more time.
Obviously your DH reason could be different but it does sound very similiar. Certainly a counsellor/ therapist of some sort should be able to help one way or the other.

Redninablue: Ok, so he is doing legitimate work, fair enough. But he's obviously crap at it and should may have a career rethink. A job that is putting a person under this much pressure and at which the person is clearly failing, is the wrong job.
I appreciate you saying that you're not a victim of abuse, however, you are living with a man who thinks, basically, that he is more important than you and that his needs take priority all the time. Because you have tried everything to get him to change his behaviour, and he is NOT CHANGING HIS BEHAVIOUR because YOU DON'T MATTER ENOUGH TO HIM.

Ah. I was going to say, is he a writer by any chance?

Thing is - for him - I reckon: he has to be at the desk because he has to have the discipline to do that, he's totally self-motivated and there's nobody else to support or encourage him. He's also putting himself on the line a lot, that's quite scary, and then he's not as successful as he'd like to be, so, what must he do? Work harder. Poor bloke, he's in a violent vicious circle. I bet he cancels out everything else in his life - because he has to work to try and improve - and then he hates his life and the room he's stuck in all day. Then he gets shouty, then he gets self-hating because he missed another deadline, so what to do? Stay in the room longer, staring down his self-hatred and trying to do better, putting in more hours and making himself feel worse.

This is why writer's drink.

So. What should you do? I think given that he is probably driving himself by extremes - an ultimatum is too extreme. He's all about extremes! It'll only up the anti in an unhelpful way and endorse his feelings of worthlessness.

I think the best thing is to say - I support you totally, I love you but we need to find a balance. I think you're really vulnerable and unhappy. I think you should see someone to talk that through and I might need to insist on that - it's not indulgent, you deserve to find some tools to help you work better, for all our sakes.

I reckon there's load of self-hatred, and the best way to deal with that is not to deliver ultimatums, but offer him understanding and support and ask that he realizes the circle he's in - and that SUCCESS is not going to change that - he is going to change that by working differently.

Red, I have a problem with a therapist telling you to give your DH an ultimatum without knowing him (I suppose you are not seing the same person for couple counselling and individually?). I would have though that that in itself is bad practice.

Also, I agree that changing his behaviour will not be achieve quickly, other than out of fear - but would you want him to change because of that? -. This will take time and the help of :
1- a psychotherapist
2- a mentor who could help him both on time management issues and any specific problems he might have about his work. (eg he might have to be reminded that you can't be efficient and do a good job on 2 hours of sleep a night...)

I think you will have to take a decision about whether you are happy to support him for a while whislt he is sorting his problems out or if you just have enough.