Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Today my therapist told me to give DH an ultimatum

42 replies

RedNinaBlue · 26/05/2010 22:46

Either change his behaviour, or I walk.

The situation: DH works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, from our home and still misses nearly every one of his work deadlines. He is unhappy and stressed, and shouty and angry with me as a result. We spend no time together or only occasionally if I put my foot down and have a big scene about it. I think he needs to see a behaviour therapist to sort out his issues with work and deadlines. However, since he has not done so despite prompting, we are instead seeing a couples therapist to discuss my unhappiness with the situation.

Today, in an individual session, my therapist told me it was time to give him an ultimatum, since DH won't even acknowledge his responsibility in my unhappiness (or his own), let alone start making improvements. The change I want is for him to clearly separate "work time" and "personal time", ideally confining work to an office outside our home which he has the use of. This is a monumental, unfair demand that he cannot cope with, for DH (his workload controls him, rather than the other way around, IMO).

I have been lurking on many of the MN Relationship threads, and can report that:

  • my DH is not abusive, not violent, and not a narcissist.
  • we love each other, enjoy each other's company (when we have any time together), give each other lots of affection and comfort
  • we have shared values and goals in life.

I suspect my therapist is right about an ultimatum being necessary, as change has clearly not been forthcoming any other way, but I am afraid:

  • I will not make a threat lightly, which means if I issue an ultimatum I should be ready to emotionally sever myself from him. I don't think I'm there yet. If DH says he prefers to split, I will be devastated.
  • My DH clearly has a problem and is hurting. He just can't SEE it. If I give him an ultimatum, HE will be devastated because he will see it as me hitting him while he is down. (No other methods have worked though -- I've tried everything I can think of).
  • Also, I am 31, and we have just started TTC. I badly want a child. I feel torn between thinking I should get back on the pill immediately until this issue with my husband is sorted one way or another, and thinking "fuck him, why should I put having children on hold just because he's being a neglectful arse? Chances are we'll sort it out, and if not I can deal with being a single parent." (I am not dependent on him financially: I am in a very stable career with good pay and excellent flexibility for working parents).

WWYD in this situation?

OP posts:
sorky · 27/05/2010 10:42

I feel for you, but please don't get pg.
Being a mother is incredibly stressful (as can be being pg) and if you don't have support now, you almost certainly won't get the support you'll need from him when you have a child.
It's one thing to manage on your own, it's a whole other game to do that with a baby.

I have no idea how he manages on 4 hours sleep a night. When does he eat? Bathe? etc
Anyone would surely go insane with that kind of life stress....

God I'd be worried what would get him first, a mental breakdown or a heart attack!!

cestlavielife · 27/05/2010 10:45

a researcher/academic (whatever he is) aint gonna change - if you have babies with him be sure to realise you will be alone with baby much of the day.....tho also having a baby may focus him. you wont know til it happens - but if you take the chance then be prepared to be main carer most of the time...

you are not responsible for his stress/unhappiness - you can suggest to him but only he can decide to take action or not.

if you have love, shared values, goals etc -then you have to take his work as part of the package?...

but there is little you can do and even ultimatum may not work - my exP was stressed at work, took on more and more work to try and improve things, in the end resigned got more and more depresed and finally had complete breakdown...

you say he has a problem "He just can't SEE it." if he cant see it then he cannot seek help can he?

maybe the ultimatum such as look i am moving out for a while til you sort yourself out - well it might help him - but it might not. it is under HIS control whether he seeks help or not. if he cant see an issue then you have a hard road ahead...

whatname · 27/05/2010 10:48

RedNina,
I think it's admirable that you are trying to help him. But you must know that there is only so much you can or should put up with.
I would second some of the postings here, that he is not suited to that particular job, or he needs help. Can he get an assistant? someone to organise him?
Also DixieD's post sounds very interesting.
If he needs a shakeup, then the ultimatum might work, but if there is actually something wrong, he needs a rethink or help from a doctor.
DixieD, can I ask how you got your DH some help? sounds horribly like mine.

ItsGraceAgain · 27/05/2010 10:55

Aargh. Look, I fully understand about the drive to 'perfection' and about hyper-focussing: because, as I said, I do it myself. So there's the one issue: your H drives himself to distraction (literally) and still misses deadlines. Then there's the other issue: He is not only a researcher, he's also a husband and a human being.

The fact that he's putting his work in front of you and himself is a problem, and not necessarily the same one. Fixing one won't automatically fix the other.

Without knowing him, I don't know if an ultimatum from you would work. It wouldn't with me. I can give you rational-sounding justifications for that, but the real reasons why it wouldn't are all to do with deep-seated crap in my own psyche - as 100x also says. It is impossible to fix deep-seated crap for another person, even if you love them and they love you.

There are compromises. You could ask him to sleep elsewhere while he's working, and just get on with your life in the meantime: make yourself 'single' for the duration. It's not ideal but neither is it that unusual - lots of writers go to their holiday home to work, for example, and that's why they do. It would mean accepting you'll have a part-time marriage. You might need to discuss this with your therapist, if you haven't already. You could impose an 8-hour day on him - again, many writers have someone to do this for them (spouse, assistant or housekeeper). You could make him go and work in the library, which will chuck him out when they close.

Additionally (not alternatively!) - there are therapists who specialise in time management. It could be helpful to him, longer term, to find one of those for himself.

His inefficient working pattern is NOT your problem: your problem is your relationship. Don't try to fix him, just try to get a better relationship. Good luck!!

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/05/2010 11:14

As a general rule, if a couple are having "groundhog" day conversations where grievances are aired and empty promises to change are made, something pretty drastic needs to happen to "change the script". This could be what your counsellor is getting at - that you have both got yourself locked in a state of permanent "replay". She is helping you to look for what catalyst will change the script.

People also need an incentive to change and normally the biggest incentive for someone who loves their partner is the threat of losing them. Ideally, however, the incentive should be that the behaviour is making you very unhappy. That in itself should be the most powerful incentive to change. If it isn't, it usually means that at heart, the person is selfish and puts his own needs above yours.

I really wouldn't recommend using a withdrawal of sex, because using sex as a bargaining tool/weapon is an awful practice and adds to the downward spiral.

I also don't recommend ultimatums unless you are prepared to follow them through and it doesn't sound as though you are yet in that place.

Perhaps then in therapy you need to tackle what is at the root cause of this behaviour. It sounds like extreme selfishness to me, mixed in with pride. It doesn't sound like he can admit that he is a very poor time manager, or that his stress is self-generated, or even that this might be the wrong career choice for him.

When it gets to the stage where he stands to lose what presumably is his most important relationship, everything should be up for discussion, including his career choices.

I would echo what everyone has said in that bringing children into the mix while this is unresolved will be disastrous. Selfish people generally get worse after having children, not better - and their selfishness actually becomes even more apparent.

So, I would start to look at his selfishness more laterally. I'd bet it manifests itself in all sorts of other ways i.e. not going to places/seeing friends if you want to but he doesn't, not pulling his weight domestically, failing to make effort with relationships in the extended family, believing his career and work are more important than yours. This is, I suspect at the root cause of his ultimately fruitless workaholism.

I would also add another dynamic to the mix. I have noticed throughout life that often people "hide" behind their busy lives, either as a mask for not doing things they'd rather not (but should) or if they are trying to avoid confronting something they cannot handle; an unsatisfying relationship normally. There could be something going on here too.

Having explored selfishness and "hiding", you might conclude what I do - that actually this is very controlling behaviour. He might not see it like this and I suspect you will take some convincing that it is, because it is very subtle. But if someone keeps doing things that make another person unhappy, affecting their choices in life, it is controlling.

See where this takes you with the counsellor and him. And perhaps explore the truth that his incentive to change should be as simple as he is making you unhappy. A good question in this situation is:

Why that hasn't been enough of an incentive in the past?

I suspect if you phrase it this way, it becomes a rhetorical question.

Good luck!

minipie · 27/05/2010 11:19

"You could impose an 8-hour day on him - again, many writers have someone to do this for them (spouse, assistant or housekeeper). You could make him go and work in the library, which will chuck him out when they close."

This is what I was going to suggest. Though maybe a 10 hour day rather than 8 hours.

I wonder if he might be more efficient if he has a "stop time" to work towards - i.e. rather than thinking "I'll just look at this website, then I'll write some more, I can always work late into the night" he would think "Damn, I have to stop at 8pm, better write something".

I know that works for me. (So for example I am on mumsnet rather than working right now and will prob end up working late as a result... but if I had to be home by say 7pm, I'd be working now).

How do you think he would react to this sort of suggestion?

ItsGraceAgain · 27/05/2010 11:36

Thanks for your post, WWIFN, you've helped me clarify the problem I have with ultimatums (ultimata?) It's as follows:-

If an ultimatum is used as a threat - a tool to effect change in someone else's behaviour - then it is a method of control. As such, it's likely to elicit resentment as well as possibly hurting the threatener.

There's a world of difference between an ultimatum as threat, and taking the personal decision that you cannot live with the behaviour for more than X more weeks. That difference has to be made crystal clear to the receiver, as well, so it doesn't appear as a controlling threat.

I'm pretty sure Nina understands this, but it bears saying once in a while.

QSnondomicile · 27/05/2010 11:46

He might have the intelligence for research, but he does not have the discipline to actually get any WORK done in front of his computer. He cant manage ANY deadlines, like you say, and is chosing to faff about online rather than both sleeping to ensure a fresh mind FOR HIS JOB, and he is putting this ahead of you. Whatever he is doing, it seems to take priority over both his work, and you.

I would not waste any time on such a nob, and neither would I stay in a relationship with him. Sorry.

This man needs to grow up, this man needs to step up to his responsibilities, both as an employee, a partner, but most of all, an ADULT. Do NOT get pregnant by this man.

ib · 27/05/2010 12:03

I agree with ahundred - what he's got is a lack of work discipline, nothing else.

He probable feels overwhelmed by all the demands on him, and I would be reluctant to be another demand.

What he needs is help sorting out his work discipline. Once he is happy with his work rhythm and output, everything else will follow.

He clearly is not the kind of person who is very good at organising himself, so if you really want to help I would be very concrete with him.

Sit down together and work out a daily routine which can work to get his work done. Give him intermediate deliverables (x many pages by this time, or whatever) which you can monitor.

Focus on a routine which will get him to deliver his work on time and give him enough time to eat, wash and get 6 hours sleep a night - I would't major on time with you, you can work that in when he's feeling less overwhelmed. If you insist on it right now neither of you will enjoy it as he will just be thinking about the work he could be doing and you will resent that.

Miggsie · 27/05/2010 12:07

If you think the situation is bad now, wait till you have a baby...it will be 1000 times worse, and you will be knackered as well.

Sounds like he won't even notice you have a child by the sound of it.

Go back on the pill right now.

mathanxiety · 27/05/2010 14:55

Well, he might not notice there's a baby around, but to you he will become very annoying very fast when you really need his help and he retreats into his cave instead. Please, no baby.

I think he might actually benefit from seeing a psychiatrist. Lack of sleep for long periods sounds a bit manic to me, and it will have an effect on mental health in and of itself too, plus the lack of touch with reality if he's wasting time on the computer while he knows there are deadlines indicate to me that he needs more than just an invitation to consider the relationship or to get himself some time management skills. He sounds as if he's buried himself pretty deep in a mental hellhole.

A work environment where there are other people, possibly a mentor, some routine, some human contact and back and forth banter, etc., and a set time where the office closes would be a help after he gets the once-over from a psychiatrist.

DixieD · 27/05/2010 15:38

Whatname- I got DH to go to a gp and he gave him a referral to a good counsellor. Our GP is good and is not inclined to medicate for all problems. While I am sure there are many who would just have diagnosed some ADs and left it at that he did not. He thought it may have been depression but wanted DH to get some counselling first. As it turns out it wasn't depreesion at all so just as well. DH was showing symptons of depression but these were just being brought on as a side effect of having an untreated disorder. IE feeling very down and frustrated because he couldn't function normally. It wasn't easy to get my DH to go get help but in the end I told him our marriage wouldn't survive if he didn't.

RedNinaBlue · 27/05/2010 18:55

Thank you for all your messages. I'm going to be reading them and re-reading to help me settle my mind about my next course of action.

I agree with most of what was said (except that he is not totally selfish: eg. does 50% of the housework; the only thing he's hiding from is his own time-management problem; and I don't think he is trying to control me). Today I'm thinking that an ultimatum might backfire, given the fragile state of his ego wrt his work, and his volatility due to stress and lack of sleep.

The thread title was short for impact, and has surprised some of you. The way it went is that my therapist told me "it might be time to issue an ultimatum", after a conversation where we discussed what an absolute absence of a relationship I have, am I willing to accept it to go on like that (no), even at the cost of my relationship? (I said yes, given what came before. So I can understand why the therapist made the ultimatum suggestion. However, I am now interrogating just how I feel about that logical sequence).

I have suggested the 8-hour day thing, several times. No go. I will suggest it again, with all the love I can, because I really think only a solution like that will help. In addition to him getting professional help for his concentration/time management/whatever mental gremlin he has going on.

Yes yes yes, I do want to help him. I see how much he is hurting, and what kind of a mental hole he has dug himself into. I have said variations of pretty much everything on this thread to him. I am out of ideas, frustrated and sad beyond belief.

But I can't help him. What I need is for him to get help. He needs professional help. He can only seek that help himself: however, my entreaties for him to do so have come to nothing.

What do you do when the message is simply not being heard , but you don't want to hurt the person or break up?

I am, btw, on CD22. AF or not is due in a week. It's hard to keep the "what ifs?" at bay. I'll report back in a week.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 27/05/2010 21:08

Is there any way you could take a look at his deadlines and, as a stopgap, intervene and help him to manage the most pressing by reporting to you every hour exactly what he's got done? (Get a second job for you in other words...) Or is there any way to get whoever it is that he reports to to intervene and demand a twice daily submission of work? (Every 4 hours, for instance)

Maybe a very short leash would sort him out in the short term to break the back of some deadlines, and you could make an appointment with him to see his GP to get a mental health referral when the pressure is off?

If he resists any kind of help with the deadlines, then I think you have to consider he has a mental health problem, and he's on some sort of gerbil wheel that he will need help getting off.

fluffles · 27/05/2010 22:02

it sounds to me like he's a serious workaholic.

is there a support group for workaholics? it's like an addiction.

www.workaholics-anonymous.org/page.php?page=newcomers

Eurostar · 28/05/2010 08:52

I don't think he's trying to control you , I think you're trying to control him in order to get him to be how you think he should be. Even though the changes you want him to make would be healthy for him, he is not your son and you can't change him. Have a read about co-dependency, you are enabling him (as you do with your financial support for instance) and trying to control him at the same time. Have a think about why you are taking so much responsibility on yourself.

..and please don't even think about trying to bring a baby into this environment. Would you want to grow up in a home full of tension with a Dad full of unhappiness?

RedNinaBlue · 28/05/2010 10:37

That's a fair point, Eurostar, and one I've been examining myself. The thing is, I don't want to "control" him: I know that I can no longer live with his behaviour, and if he's willing to change, then he should. If he is not willing to change, then I need to know, because that means our marriage is over. I need to make clear to him what the consequences of his not changing are, and see what he chooses.

I want to ask him what, if anything, he is willing to do to change. Maybe he has suggestions that are not my preferred solution, but could also work. Frankly, if he suggested changes off his own bat that were suitable to him and went some of the way towards where I would like to be, I would thank my lucky stars and probably be satisfied with that. However if he can't change at all, then I also know I can't stay.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page