What to expect after an affair

[catwalker]

There are a few other threads in similar vein but I didn't want to hijack anyone else's so thought I would start another.

I posted on here a few months ago when I found out about my husband's affair. Since then I've read most of the threads about affairs and taken lots of comfort from some of the excellent advice - particularly from WWIFN. It's been particularly helpful to find out that there seems to be a fairly typical response pattern to finding out about a partner's infidelity.

For me I spent about a week totally numb with shock, followed by anger, denial, unbelievable pain, feelings of worthlessness, self-loathing, anxiety, waves of nausea and panic etc etc. We had the 'hysterical bonding' that people refer to. More recently I hit 'the wall' which WWIFN talks about and felt completely flat and depressed.

The most constant feeling throughout though has been disbelief. I thought my husband and I had a really good relationship, not to mention the fact that I didn't think there was time or opportunity for anyone else. I had zero suspicions so the bombshell, when it arrived, ripped my world apart. DH has done everything he can to try and convince me how much he loves me, what a terrible mistake he made, how OW meant nothing, how he'll do anything it takes to keep us together, we've had counselling etc etc. But here's the thing. The disbelief is now wearing off and the more I accept what he has done, the more I feel that, actually, I don't want to be with someone who could deceive me like that. I love him very much and he's generally a good husband and a great dad. I don't want to split up, but all I think about when I look at him at the moment is him having sex with the OW. There are reminders of his infidelity everywhere and I just can't get the images of him and her out of my head. I don't actually feel I have enough emotional energy left to invest in rebuilding a relationship which he has almost shattered with his selfish and crass behaviour - even if it was 'only once' in 18 years.

Is this a normal part of the post-affair process do you think? Or am I heading for the divorce courts?

I don't know the answer to your question, but wanted to say that my situation is very similar, and l am experiencing the same kind of doubts at the moment, so I am interested in how others respond.

I feel that I do not want to split up, but it is as though I have embarked on a new relationship with my partner - the major difference being that I now know that he is capable of doing me great harm, without a thought for me, whereas before I trusted him completely to have my interests at heart. Even though he is being loving, attentive, and making lots of difficult changes in his life to improve our family relationships, I know it is not me and him against the world anymore.

My only solution has been to try to think of this as a new start, with someone that I know a lot about, including the worst he is capable of. I don't beat myself up about not trusting him, but instead have strengthened my own support network so that I can survive if the worst happens.

I am sorry that you have gone through this, and hope someone with wise words will be along shortly!

Ange8 - that's exactly how I feel. So sad that I no longer have my rock beside me - someone who would put me above others (especially someone he claims to have had no strong feelings for).

I've been advised about the need to see the next phase of our relationship as a new start. But to be honest, I don't know if I have the energy to do this and I am overwhelmed with grief at the loss of the relationship I thought I had.

Maybe let him focus on rebuilding the relationship, and you focus on rebuilding you. I found that doing things for me - exercise, haircut, spending time with kind friends, getting a new job (got the offer yesterday) have helped me to deal with the loss and grief. Meanwhile, my partner is reminded that I can go on without him, even if I choose not to. The news of my job offer prompted a renewed 'hysterical bonding' on his part, I think because he sees that I have removed some of the practical barriers to leaving.

It is so sad to loose your previously bullet-proof security - but I guess we both have to acknowledge that our certainty was to some extent illusory, and we now have cold reality. Take good care of yourself.

I think a large part of the initial shock for me was facing up to the possibility of being on my own if we couldn't make things work. I'd never imagined a future like that and I couldn't imagine how it would be. Now I can and actually it's not as awful as I originally thought. It's not what I want, but I can see how it could work whereas I couldn't before.
Good luck with your new job!

Catwalker, I'm so glad you've come back. I'm hoping WWIFN will pick up on this to offer more help.

I know exactly how you feel and, yes, it's another part of the post affair process. I would imagine that WWIFN recommended the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. If she did, did you get it? It really is helpful, we are both reading it.

We are having time apart at the moment and have gone right back to the beginning. I won't lie to you, at first being alone for me was horrendous but it's getting better. We have started 'dating' again and rediscovering what we liked about each other in the first place. Our main problem was that we stopped communicating so we are working on that. We are both seeing individual counsellors and working on ourselves. The fact that my H is doing this alone is amazing - he's really not the kind of person who would have even considered counselling or reading the book I mentioned.

I've recognised that I need to consider myself much more than I ever did but found it so hard because I am very isolated and have very few friends in RL. I need to find outside interests whereas before I concentrated on my family only.

It's normal to grieve for the lost relationship. That's where I am now but am also looking forward to the new one - with two people who have worked on themselves, have a better understanding of themselves and can communicate with each other.

Hi Catwalker, I think I posted on your initial thread. I have just got past the awful first anniversaries. I think in way I have hit the wall too. I'm not sure if it is just the final stage of the grieving process ie acceptance. I feel I have detached from my DH, almost a realisation of what he could and did do to me and therefore I am protecting myself from any future hurt/pain he may cause IYSWIM. Day to day we get on really well, run the business together, raise the DC together but I feel I am holding back and my DH senses this.

Like you I am still getting awful flashbacks and obsessions about the OW because I didn't get proper closure there. I am considering individual counselling because I think the affair has destroyed my self-esteem so much. I need to talk to someone about it who is far removed from it if that makes sense. I almost wish there were meetings where all us affair survivors could meet and talk (a bit like the AA etc).

I understand why my DH had the affair, the circumstances that allowed it to happen and we both feel that it could never happen again and if we did have a problem re the marriage/relationship we would deal it in an appropriate, adult way - not in a destructive way.

I also believe time is a factor in healing as well. It seems 2 years is the magic number for most people.

Keep posting, it interesting to see how other people are coping and realising I am very normal

Countingto10's point about stages of the grieving process - with the last stage bring acceptance - makes a lot of sense to me. I guess the acceptance that this has really happened, and the man you love did it to you, kicks in when the disbelief wears off. If someone you love had died, acceptance wouldn't mean going on as normal, it would involve facing up to a future without them, allowing yourself to think about good times in the past, but also sometimes being shocked by a sudden remembrance of what you have lost. I think the ongoing pain is part of the new me I will have to embrace.

I'm really happy to help Catwalker, but like another thread recently, I am conscious that you have heard lots from me about this and it might be of more value if you hear from other posters. So I'll bow out for now and will come back after a few more posts, or immediately if you have specific questions that you think I can help with.

Catwalker, my situ different, my H left but I suppose some of the feelings and the healing process are similar.

The pain of my acceptance at what he did to me and the fact that he will never return doesn't seem to want to leave me.

I have no idea how to diminish the pain and hurt.

Each event just reopens all the wounds, like him going on holiday this week with OW, I just think that it should be me with him and not her.

How long this goes on for I cannot predict, I wish it would go away, mainly because I want to resume a fairly civil 'friendship' with him for the sake of DC.

If it takes as long as 2 years then I think I am going to struggle.

I wish you well repairing your relationships, I think you are lucky to have the chance, if that is what you really want, I was never given that choice.

Karman - thanks for the welcome back. I haven't been away - I read several times a day, just haven't posted. Yes, I got a copy of 'the bible' and, while there were things I didn't like/agree with I have found it very helpful. Particularly the concept of persuading yourself in the initial stages that what you're doing is ok. Also, some of the techniques for dealing with the aftermath are helpful.

Partytime/Counting to 10 - I think 2 years is probably right. That's how long it took me last time this happened to me. Though on that occasion I was cheated on and left. This time the cheater wants to stay. I can remember a friend saying to me last time that it had been 2 years and it was about time I stopped crying! And that was 20 years ago when I had a lot more going for me in terms of looks and confidence.

Counting to ten - I have an almost non-existent support network and I would love it if you lived in the next street and we could help each other.

I think the problem I have now is that I don't want drugs to dull the pain. I don't want techniques to reduce the impact of the images in my head and the horror of being cheated on by the man I love, under my nose, with someone I know. I don't want to get rid of the pain and the images so I can forget and move on because that seems like saying, 'forget what he did and lets both pretend he's the person you want him to be then everything will be OK'. DH keeps talking about himself in terms of 2 people - 'that's who I was then and it's not who I am now'. But he's only ever been one person and the person who now says he wants to grow old with me, loves me unconditionally, never wants to be apart from me, is the person who arranged to have sex with someone we both know and then, in an attempt to 'manage the situation' maintained a friendly/normal relationship with her afterwards, despite her attempts to entice him into further sexual encounters. He failed spectacularly to persuade her that it wasn't going to happen again and, on his own admission, didn't say, "it's not going to happen again because I love my wife too much".

WWIFN - please post. Your advice is always most welcome. When I started this thread I went to call it "when will I feel normal" but then realised I was using your name!

Ange8 - I am trying to look after myself. I've bought new clothes (most of which look quite good thanks to the 1.5 stone weight loss), spent loads on jewellery and had my hair coloured. All very enjoyable, but barely takes the edge off the pain.

Catwalker - you have very succinctly and articulately had same reaction as me. On th whole and ostdescribed my feeling also! Had not heard before the expression 'hysterical bonding' but I recognise it! Quite comfoting to see that others have the same feeling I get.
Ostensibly, coping well, relationship vastly improved etc etc, but... definitely get the bit about hitting the 'wall'. Unfortunately OW is on the periphery of our social circle, so I catch sight of her about twice a week and I can't help that it re-opens the wound. DH keeps telling me she is just an acquaintance, nothing to him etc - she apears to have a new boyfriend - DH says he is relieved she has as surely that will make me feel there is no further risk. We can usually mention her if she crops up in converstaion about general stuff and DH mentioned the otehr day that she looked like she had changed her hair to look like mine but sometimes it just gets me, especially if it is a day I have had minimal carbs or a glass orf wine so am starting to understand the triggers now which helps - but would be much easier if hse had been a fling on a biz trip rather than someone we know (she doesn't know I know, tho' she must suspect I do) tho' maybe that would be just as bad as I would wonder every time he went on a trip.
Sorry not much help - except - me too!

Wozzzz - know what you mean. Would be so much easier if it was someone I never saw. Trouble is, when I do see her, I have an almost (but thankfully not totally) overwhelming urge to grab her by the hair and punch her in the face. There. I've said it.

Catwalker - sorry i have been absent for a while.

I am actually finding it tough at the moment - mainly due to other things causing a huge amount of stress.

Something which really struck a chord with me was the comment you made about being able to imagine a life alone and it not holding the fear it once did.
I feel like that and like you although i dont want to give up on my marriage i am not afraid of it failing anymore.

At the moment i feel emotionally drained and know i am not investing in the marriage - maybe before, i would have worried but at the moment i am not. Not sure what that says at the moment either.

I have accepted that my marriage has changed forever because of my h affair.

A lot of the time it is better - and certainly i am a much stronger person because of it all.

It is still very hard to seperate the 'normal' ups and down of the marriage from the affair.
At times like now i find i do tend to dwell on the past and find that i cannot 'rely' on it or my h as much as i feel i ought to be able to.

Not sure if this is really helping you but wanted you to know that it does take a long time - and actually i dont think it ever goes away completly - like many things that happen to us in our lives we just learn to accept and live with it.

Try not to give yourself a timeframe and feel that you are not moving forward when 'normality' returns.
Thats what i am trying to do now.

catwalker - sorry took a long time to post that last post so now have read yours and Wozzz.

Dont worry about the urge to give ow a slap - i thankfully never have to see ow and h has changed jobs -but i still think if she were to cross the road in front of me i would probably not see her and 'accidently' run her over - opps there i have said it too. Maybe it is just wishful thinking though . A kind of fantasy. Most of the time i dont give the ow a second thought - but i do know that 'anything' can make me angry during PMT time.

Try to accept that there are always going to be triggers - surely we have people like this in our past anyway, not just ow.

I was in a state of disbelief for about 6 months actually. It was about that time when I posted on here, convinced that if I ever told anyone what had happened, they would tell me to call time on my marriage. That scared me, but I felt that I needed to know that, if people felt it. It often occurs to me that I must have picked a good time to post, because no-one did.

By that time however, my H had long since started counselling, something he never would have entertained in the past. He was (and still is) doing everything in his power to make up for this massive hurt.

I really understood and empathise with the feeling that your H is not the person you thought he was - and my H also describes himself as two people; the person he was in 2008 and the one he is now. What helped me understand this actually was that prior to this happening to us, some good friends of ours were splitting up because of an affair. I used to tell the injured party that the spouse was going through a type of temporary insanity and that this would pass. The betraying friend became totally unlike their normal self, re-writing history about the relationship and generally being a self-absorbed arse. That saga was very vivid when I made my discovery, so I could relate to the reality that when in the grip of an infatuation of any sort, people do behave in a way that is out of character.

One of the hardest things for us I think is that the person who has hurt you becomes your counsellor, especially if you have told no-one else about what has happened.

When I look back over the past 20 months, I realise that in the first year, there were incredible highs and incredible lows. In the early days, I read voraciously and remember I kept reading about this magic 2 year watershed. I have kept focusing on that and it is almost upon me. The lows still come, but they are not as bad as they once were and although my marriage was happy before this happened, it is a much better relationship now.

The images you describe do still come, but they have lessened and my H has helped by answering my questions honestly about the sex.

I still find that I can become weepy or sad about an aspect of it - and the bit that usually causes me most pain is the hell I seemed to be going through for the year or so they were in contact - and how lonely I felt when there were other things conspiring against me in my life. Prior to this happening, my H had always been my most powerful advocate, had always been so proud of me and my successes. That year, it felt as though everything I touched turned to dust and whereas before, I would have talked to him about what I should do, he didn't seem interested. Now, he effervesces pride about absolutely everything I do and is always singing my praises. He always was a rock in my life, but now he is a mountain.

You have to trust your instincts with something like this. If you truly believe that your H is a good man who made a horrible mistake for a while - and that he loves you deeply, it is easier to move on.

Our situation was perhaps different to others. I had always believed that he loved me more than I loved him - and I had much more in my life in terms of friends, career etc., than him. He admits now that he always felt he was "punching above his weight" with me and felt somewhat in my shadow. I had in fact never realised how much his adoration had been the springboard for my successes. Once that adoration seemed to go, other things in my life seemed to unravel...

So one of the biggest realisations for us was that I loved him far more deeply than I had thought. Our relationship is now much more equal. Perhaps differently to some of you, I thought before, that if it all went tits up, I would be just fine. When it came to it though, I realised I wouldn't be just fine at all, I would be heartbroken. That said, I do know that I could manage without him, I just don't want to.

In the past, any petty grievances I had with him were "bargained away" by me with the thought: "But he loves me unconditionally and would never hurt me" and of course, that has gone now. So I just wouldn't tolerate some of the rubbish of the past, such as laziness or selfishness. He knows that too - it's like a zero tolerance approach.

He has changed so much in the past 20 months and he really is now the sort of husband I dreamed of many moons ago. He is incredibly sensitive to my mood and will talk at the drop of a hat. He is incredibly unselfish and puts everyone in the family before his own needs. He takes care of his appearance and just isn't complacent in the least. Because of the work he has done on himself, he completely understands how he is happier when he is giving everything to the marriage and the family.

I didn't get any proper closure with the OW and I still feel quite murderous towards her and will freely admit I wish nothing but a prolonged bout of pestilence to blight her life. I feel sad for her H, who seems like a really nice man. Perhaps one day I will feel neutral about her, but that day seems far away. I have spent far too much time feeling destroyed that there is a woman out there who thinks my marriage must be a sham, even though I have seen an E mail from her sent to my H in the dying throes of the affair acknowledging that ours was a happy marriage.

One of the major difficulties I have faced is the belief at large that affairs only happen in marriages that are unhappy. I know that wasn't the case for mine and my H has never ever claimed that this was an excuse. But it was true that he was unhappy at the time with life in general, having hit a bit of a career low and feeling that his role in life was not as clearly defined as it once was, with our DCs getting older.

He has always fully accepted that this was his weakness and he allowed himself to be flattered and seduced by the prospect of a risky adventure with someone who was never going to be a real risk. I have fortunately always been able to empathise with that and can understand why it happened at this particular time.

Because I really don't think people can grasp that affairs happen in happy marriages, I have been very careful about who I told. I have been sadly disappointed with the reactions of people who have never gone through this, but have had much better understanding from those who can empathise fully. Everyone to a person however has reiterated that my H is a truly lovely man and that our marriage is worth saving.

It is by far the hardest thing I have ever done, this process of rebuilding. But strangely enough, just this week I can see how much better I am feeling. This "up" feels different to other bouts of optimism, so I'm hoping it will last, but I never think of myself or us as the finished article.

I am an educator by trade and so have found huge benefit in sharing with others what I have learned. Counting's idea of a support group really resonated with me. They have them in Canada and North America, but there doesn't seem to be anything like that here.

Perhaps we could form a co-operative?

wwifn...you never fail to touch me < watery smile >

WWIFN - thank you for yet another helpful and supportive post. I think of all the people posting at the moment, your story is the one most similar to mine - the loving husband seduced by the prospect of a 'no strings; no chance of discovery' sexual liaison with someone he had no strong feelings for but who made him feel attractive/excited at a time in his life when he was started to feel old/frustrated/bored at work etc etc

But I really hate the 'two person' approach. It's great to now have an attentive, loving, thoughtful husband who buys me flowers every few days and never stops saying "I love you" (words he previously seemed unable to say). But if you can change into a different person once, who's to say you can't change into a different person again? Or change back to the old person? The loving attentive man is still the same person who arranged to have sex with someone else.

My dh started off answering questions about the sex the day after discovery. In fact he was so honest I thought well, if he can be honest about the fact that he performed oral sex on the ow when he could have lied about it, maybe he's telling the truth about other things. However, the crappy counsellor we saw a day or two later advised against going into details and, despite criticising everything else she said, he is clinging onto this like a lifeboat. Every time I ask him anything about the sexual encounter now, he clams up and walks out of the room or refuses to discuss it, "for your own good". I know he's using that as an excuse because he doesn't want the pain/humiliation/embarrassment/whatever of reliving the details but I don't like the feeling that he's holding back on anything.

I do truly believe my dh is a good man, but I have seen aspects of him I don't like - weakness, an ability to lie/cheat/deceive, selfishness, a willingness to risk the happiness of his wife and children for sexual gratification etc. He's not the only one getting old; he's not the only one bored with work - in fact his job is infinitely more exciting than mine.

Hopefully this is yet another 'phase' but honestly, I feel so worn out and am in so much pain, I can almost feel myself detaching from him. I guess it's a form of self defence. I'm just finding it almost impossible at the moment to deal with the overwhelming sense of betrayal and disgust.

Thank you for not saying, as I feared someone might, that I shouldn't be angry with the ow - she's not the one who let me down. But she is someone who knew me; knew my children; yet still made overtures to my husband and offered him no strings sex. I hate her with such a passion. I'm also quite insulted to be cheated on by someone so insipid in appearance and personality!

Whenwill - again a great post and i must say more 'human' than many of your others (no offence meant). I always feel you have done everything so much better than i did.

I do believe my h has changed and it is interesting that you now say you feel you love your h more than you realised before - my h says he now loves me more than he did before - whereas i feel i love him 'differently' not less just not so blindly as i did before.

But like catwalker i too question whether my h could change back or maybe he is actually a liar who never had the need to before the affair.
I think i need to put the affair into a compartment alone otherwise i fear he was always a cheat who had not had the chance before.

But then if i can see that this has changed me why should it not also have changed my h too??

Catwalker i think we need to find enough trust to jump in and enjoy, but i too feel i am withdrawing at the moment, Although like i said in a previous post i can put that down to other stresses.

I have read all of this thread with interest and would like to give my point of view, although my story doesn't have a happy ending as we couldn't make it work.

The timescale thing is interesting. I kept a diary so I can now see when my feelings changed. I really wanted my marriage to work but, if only one person is trying, it is very difficult.

H told me of ow in Nov 07. The difference in my story is that he didn't want to stop seeing her but he didn't want to leave the dc. I was totally in shock for a long time. The same as wwifn, I had always felt that h loved me more than I loved him. Maybe I was complacent but I sure wasn't expecting that!

It took till Dec 08 for me to start getting angry and to start detaching. By Feb 09, after finding another text (the final straw) I had completely detached. I dont feel it was something I could have controlled. My mind took over.

catwalker, your post of 16:29 could have been written by me. I spent the first few months terrified of being on my own with the dc. But then you reach a point where you think "you know what, I can do this, and it will be fine" and it is still a sad day because this isn't what you wanted but you are a strong woman and you will deal with it.

We are separating but h has told me that he has been humbled by my strength.

I just see it as another thing to deal with in this weird life.

Just remember, you don't have to stay together just because you think that is the right thing to do.

I am so pleased you are hearing from others Catwalker. These ladies are wonderful and offer such strength and support.

I empathise fully with how you are feeling and was nodding my head at your most recent post.

Counsellors who advise against going into the details that you need to move on, should be exposed to the same pestilence I mentioned earlier. If you want to know, you should be told. I did - and my H used to hate talking about the sex, although as you know there were only two occasions. He used to say that it felt alien for a man to be talking to his wife about sex with another woman, which was rather stating the obvious. But I simply had to know about it all - and in my case, it helped enormously.

So I would really persevere with this, because this is one of those areas where the encounter in your imagination is probably far more exotic than the reality. My H was so honest about the various aspects too, that I knew he was telling the truth. In all these months, he has returned to something he told me the day after discovery; that on the drive home he kept thinking that it so hadn't been worth it and that he remembered the perfection that had been our first time together and how impoverished this experience had been with her, in comparison.

If your H is telling you that it was dreadful, I think he's telling you the truth, but he really does need to tell you what you need to know. He cannot be the arbiter of what's "good for you".

I recognise the detachment too - it's a form of self-defence of course.

How's your H's counselling going - and also your joint counselling?

WRT the "two people" issue, I suspect you've actually got the real DH with you now. The trouble with modern long marriages is that we're all so busy trying to get everything "right" in our careers, our parenting, our responsibilities to elderly parents and siblings, plus the need to keep up with friends and look after them when they hit crisis, that we sometimes forget to nurture the relationship that is the cornerstone of our DCs happiness, and ultimately our own.

Your DH possibly feels that now he has realised what a gem he always had in you, he can unleash the romantic side of him and express his love more openly. Sometimes long-married couples feel a bit "silly" being openly affectionate with one another and he now feels that he can and wants to be like that - and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Perhaps in your high moments, you feel the same.

There's nothing like valuing what you thought you had lost - and might still lose. His relief at the secret finally being "out" must be enormous and at last he feels he can be honest about his love for you, without arousing suspicion in you or others. Also, intimacy always suffers somewhat while there is a secret between you and mixed in with all the horror and the fear, he must feel as though he can at last be himself.

It is entirely understandable that you hate the OW. I bet you've never hated anyone in your whole life as much. I wouldn't worry too much about those feelings - after all, she had the chance to put your mind at rest but instead taunted you. Her actions have been utterly despicable and I'm afraid all you can hope for is karma. The one positive about you seeing her is that if she does come to grief in any way, you are likely to hear about it.

It helped me in the early days to compare our lives. It is, I'm afraid, a less edifying aspect of the initial stages of recovery that our competitive instincts kick in. I knew even then that regardless of what happened with my marriage, I would have a happier life and had much more going for me in so many areas.

Nevertheless, it still has the power to shock me that having been a pacifist all my life and someone who deplores violence, I would cheerfully throttle her if I saw her. I think part of this is a mother's protective instinct too, that another woman could conspire in causing DCs so much pain. I think that is also what is behind some of our disgust towards our Hs - that a Father could risk his children's happiness so recklessly. It is certainly one of the biggest aspects of my H's self-loathing.

There have been some wonderful posts here and I think Catwalker I am like you, I want to know the details/more details about the sex side of things. Can I just ask you ladies who wanted to know more about the sex side of things, how much information did you get out of your husbands ? All the gory details or more about the thoughts and feelings that went with it ?

I am obsessing about the sex side of things atm, my dh has said some things ie he had to think of me to ejeculate (sorry if TMI) but I feel I want to know all of it, everything so nothing if left unturned IYSWIM. He would rather stick pins in his eyes and I also firmly believe he doesn't want to acknowledge some things as well as he can't believe what he did. I do know he is a different person now but I want to get things straight in my head.

Also if you really did get all the "gory" details, did it help or did it make you obsess and get flashbacks more. I really don't want to feel any worse about it all but need to get certain images out of my head.

I personally feel that once I know all there is to know (however horrible) it will bring closure to that part of it.

BTW I also can cheerfully inflict terrible pain on the OW with a smile on my face for what she (and my DH) put my DC through, their pain and trauma because she actively encouraged my H to leave me (and the DC), told him what to say to me, everything.

I did ask a lot of factual questions and did get what i believe to be honest answers.

I would not have believed it if my h had said he did not enjoy it and i think he knows that too. Why would anyone go back for more if it was that bad. I can understand the one night stand and the guilt that goes with it but not an ongoing affair that resulted in him leaving for the ow.
I would only believe it if i actually was sitting in a room with ow and he said it tbh. I think i would laugh at him if he said he was thinking of me whilst ejaculating - sorry dont mean to offend but

My h has never denied the feelings he had - at the time there were so strong he believed he wanted to leave. that the ow was 'the one' for him.
He looks back in horror now and can see how his view was altered by the 'unrealness' of the affair situation. the heightened excitement of the ellicit nature of it all.

For a while he really missed the ow - she had been a good friend for a long time and they actually worked very well together. His dislike for her really was because of her actions towards her family - she left her h and dc for him and he now cannot imagine ever liking anyone who would do that.

The flashbacks are awful and do seem to come at the worst times. For a long time i was just 'performing' sex and it took a long time to want to make love again. That side of things has changed too but not sure if that was all to do with the affair or just getting older anyway.

I feel a part of me wants what the ow had - the passion the freedom - the not having to think about the family ect, but that is just not me and that is what h loves about me.

At the end of the day i suppose we all have to accept that they have choosen for the right reason the good old steady life over the heady passions.

counting would it make a difference if he said she was sensational??
Do you think you are wanting him to 'admit' to something more?
Is it important that you feel you are 'better' than her.

My h told me very early on because i asked straight forward questions - he had no time to 'think' about the best answer to give and so i do believe they were truthful.
I have never asked whether she was 'better' or not as i know the answer would be it was 'different'.

I think i see myself as 'better' than ow as i would NEVER leave my dc for anyone and even if she thinks she is better than me sexually it was not enough for her to have him to herself. So even with the offer of mind blowing sex he would rather be with me.
Hope that helps

Countingto10 - I don't think there's anything else my husband could tell me about the sex that would make me feel worse than I already do. He told me more or less what happened physically but now sees my wanting to talk about it as torturing myself with detail whereas what I am trying to understand is what was going on in his head at that time. I think this is because I feel compelled to subject everything he tells me to a rigorous examination to see if I can find any flaws in what he is saying or if in fact it might be true. He claims that as soon as he turned up to do the deed he didn't want to be there; hoped she wouldn't turn up; didn't want to go through with it. BUT he nevertheless managed to do things beyond what was necessary to get the thing over with and get the hell out of there. Was it an ego thing that he couldn't bear the ow to think he couldn't give her a really good time in bed? Is he lying about not wanting to go through with it and not admitting that he was really turned on during the whole encounter and the guilt didn't really kick in until afterwards? If he said to me, yes it was a fantastic sexual experience and you never entered my head until I left - that would make more sense.

WWIFN - I agree about the disgust at treating his children's happiness so carelessly and the fact that he entered into this relationship without a second thought to what it could do to his wife and children. He was so bloody arrogant in his belief that nobody would find out and so hard-hearted in thinking that he could live with this secret and it wouldn't damage 'us'. But he didn't take the trouble to set any ground rules with the ow, find out if she saw the encounter as 'just sex' or if she might be getting a bit obsessed with him. He just assumed she saw it as no strings sex and put the happiness of his family into the hands of a woman he hardly knew and claims not to have had any strong feelings for, assuming she would be careful not to get found out. I find it extremely disturbing to think I am married to someone who could create a situation which resulted in his children witnessing a violent and foul-mouthed tirade from the husband of his bit on the side.

Sorry, I sound very bitter this morning don't I.

I did get all the details and they helped. I had imagined all sorts, but it turned out that they had not engaged in any act that we hadn't - and although he was honest that the very fact it was illicit lent eroticism to the encounter, it had not lived up to its promise. He took equal responsibility for this too actually and admitted that they had both "talked a good job" prior to the first meeting. I wanted to know about every physical act and also the emotions and conversations that went with them.

Since he saw the OW twice for sex, a few months apart, I also said if it had been that bad, why did he go back a second time? He has always said the same. That within a few days, he had convinced himself that it couldn't be as bad a second time and that perhaps it had been first-time nerves; it felt hugely unchivalrous to say "no thank you" after the bad first time, especially as she was blaming herself for how bad it had been - and he was trying to make her feel better.

However, what took some time to admit was that the addiction to the feelings this affair was giving him were always more powerful than the sexual thrill. So, although his first instinct was "that was a mistake and I don't want to do that again", he really wasn't ready to give up on the fix he was getting from someone who clearly adored and desired him intensely. Like you, I asked him about the the guilt. He said it was at its strongest just prior to the first encounter and just afterwards. Same for the second too, with intermittent bouts of guilt in between, but an equally quick self-assurance that this didn't have to hurt me as I would never find out

He has never denied what was most enjoyable about the affair; it was the feelings he was getting of being adored and idolised, at a time when he felt past his best.

I think you're probably right Catwalker about your H. Having turned up with a commitment to go through with this, he is hardly likely to perform badly if he can help it. I think I'd be the same if the positions were reversed actually. Probably totally inappropriate, but I imagine I'd think, if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well

What is undeniable in all these situations is the arrogance and selfishness that this could somehow be contained with no collateral damage. I have often pointed out the utter insanity of this to my H. The OW was an extremely volatile character who had a history of sending anonymous letters and staging huge histrionics at every place she ever worked. Risking a secret with someone so patently explosive was madness. Towards the end, when he kept trying to end the relationship, the histrionics were getting worse and he started to feel afraid. Like your H, he was trying to end the relationship with the least amount of negative feeling. Prior to this, my H was never very good at telling people how it was. He is now. In the end however, it was his own stupidity that caught him out and not hers. It seems she was a better liar and deceiver than him (wasn't the first infidelity for her) and her H didn't suspect a thing. Unfortunately, I imagine he still doesn't.

There's a wonderful testimony on an American site that I read in the early days, from a man who was trying to persuade his wife to give him all the details about the one-night stand that had wrecked their marriage. The analogy he used was a painting I think, which made no sense to him, as he couldn't see all the parts of it. His wife had the full picture and he needed to know it all, however horrific the image, because his imagination was worse.