I ended up telling mil about dh's anger issues

[springchik]

So upset and confused about what to do. DH gets sowound up by our ds especially our 4 and a half year old. He shouts and loses his temper with him and my 4 year old always comes running to me and throws his arms around me and I comfort him. I let slip to my mil how upseting and stressful her sons behaviour is having on the family and she said shes keeping out of it (a first for her!) except to say children need discipline! I said yes they need discipline they do not need to have the fear of God put in them and to be bullied in to submission as a way of dealing with them
I said I cant see any future for the family and I have tried to stop him from acting like this and I just cant do it and the only way forward i can see is for h to leave. Mil said no you mustnt the consequences of that would be horendous. Please no. Ok I'll have a word against my judgement but I'll have a word. I wasnt asking for that she caught me when I was upset and vulnerable. She doesn't know most of what happens at home tbh.

springchik,

does your dh shout and rage at you?

Or only at ds?

I guess this OP is different in that the Op does not get cross with her ds's behaviour, whereas her dh does.
And also the suggestion that he is so controlling.
The line between shouting (an most people accept that this in itself is not great) and abuse, is different for different people.
I still find it hard to accept the point about it not being anger management. becasue you don't shout at anyone else. Many of the mums in my sons class shout at their children. they don't do it to others, or work colleagues, as far as i know.

I wonder whether Op has really investigated the issues of why her dh shouts at ds. Could more be done here ? or is it just time to call it a day ?

Springchik, you said your H is controlling in other ways. I would think that a controlling and bad-tempered adult around the house increases stress for everybody, including DS who cannot be expected to understand what's going on ... He'll just suppose this is normal, and little boys are meant to be nervous

How you decide to go on from here is up to you, but I think you've done well to start your thread Try to read Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That?" and see if you recognise some of DH's behaviours in there. Also, I know we're always saying "Call Womens Aid" but it really can be helpful to talk to someone with expereince, who doesn't know either of you personally. The helpline number is 0808 2000 247.

Oblomov, if you & DH are taking out your stress on your DC, then yes you are being abusive. How about having a good talk with DH about taking a bit more care to reduce the amount of anxiety in your family home?

Think I should have taken more care over that, Oblomov. Anger management is a bhavioural issue for people who can't control how they express their feelings (especially negative ones). When somebody loses it all over the place, causing them to have problems at work and so on, it's possible they have a problem which can be fixed with some training - anger management classes. There can be other causes of random rages, though, it's not always that cut-and-dried.

Domestic abuse comes from a belief that it's all right to rage, shout, sulk, complain and/or hit out at your own family - in other words, to treat your nearest & dearest worse than you would treat a shop assistant or a work colleague. So, when we ask if they also shout at other people, we're trying to see if they're generally horrible or only nasty to their own family, iyswim.

If they are only nasty to their own family, it's domestic abuse. That is cut-and-dried.

You were talking about shouting at kids - I don't know whether you mean the odd bit of yelling when everything's gone wrong, or shouting at the kids a lot because you're stressed out. If the latter, then I'm afraid you really should look at it closely. Sorry for being too blunt before.

Oblomov, if the only shouting you, and other mums in your son's class, do is of the kind:

"for the last time, ds, go and have your bath"

"I'm not telling you again...turn the telly off"

...we all do that and it is not abuse.

Abuse (verbal) can be recognised because it creates

fear,

confusion,

a sense of powerlessness,

a sense of worthlessness,

and many other emotions.

A child can't articulate those emotions but wil definately feel them if on the receiving end of verbal abuse.

That is why everyone's asking so many questions.

Grace, I don't shout at ds1 due to outside stresses. only his behaviour causes me to get stressed. dh and i do talk about it. dh is the same and also feels the same as i do. and i talk to it to the advisor at my parenting course, who advises me i am doing a good job.
and it really is that simplistic is it ? well no, i don't shout at anybody else. not at dh. not at colleagues, bad drivers, no one. so this is abuse yes ?
and i ma not saying that it is o.k. either. and i do not sulk.
But i do think ds is frightnened when i shout. yes he definitely is. he doesn't like it. but then why would anyone. no one wants to be shouted at. i know i don't. and i really shout' I have had enough of your bad behiour, it never stops, there is only so much i can cope with'.
not good.
but i still don't consider this abuse.
yet i also know it is not good. and constantly try to find ways not to, and assess the deeper issues of what is really going on.

and as i said before one persons definition of abuse is different to another ones. on mn there are many many threads re both shouting, smacking and all sorts of other things. some people say that this is abuse and others say it is not. it is relative. subjective.
A judge may say yes , and a different judge may say no. tis a very difficult one.

"or shouting at the kids a lot because you're stressed out."
Isn't that why everyone shouts. someone does something. but you have to control your emotions and beahviour and act in an acceptable way. but you don't becasue it is a loss of self control, on your part. and you shout. everyone knows its not good.

or was that a refernce to stressed out form something else, say money worries or job stress ? or failing realtionship with dh, and taking THAT out on the kids.
none of those apply to me.

OP, this will not end well for your DS or for you. Your H is a blaming abuser who is taking out some sort of inner turmoil and fear on his son. Your MIL is in denial and defensive as she feels any criticism of her son is an implicit criticism of her mothering skills. They will gang up on you and back each other up.

see i do agree with math, that this can not end well. because op is on the opposing side to her dh.
see ds would never run to dh for a cuddle is i shouted at him. becasue dh and i sing from the same hymsheet. dh, whilst not condoning my behaviour would say to ds that mummy had shouted becasue i had asked him and asked him, to do/not do......
either op does not shout at all, but what is clear is that she does not agree with dh's behaviour. its like someone being married to someone else who condones shouting or smacking whilst the other doesn't. almost irreconsilable.

but i don't agree with maths definition, or others on this thread that i think have made assumptions and instantly said he is an abuser. becasue i don't think it is thta easy to make that decsion.
abuse is relative. one persons definiiton of it is not the same as anothers. similar to the smacking law and 'reasonable chastisement'. unfortunately a very grey area. or am i wrong ? is the a clear, unequivable definition of abuse ? that would mean that say every judge in any court in the land would all give the same verdict. i didn't think there was. but i could be wrong.

not that i am condoning dh's behaviour. but i am just saying that i don't think you can diagnose abuse, on the limited facts given by the OP.

I think the H in the OP is abusing Springchik -- he is intimidating her through his treatment of the DS. She says she has tried to stop him acting like this but he hasn't been amenable to listening to her.

She also said she had 'let slip' to her MIL that her DH was behaving in this fashion, and that indicates to me that she has been hiding the reality of their lives from others -- a sign that she is in a situation that has deteriorated a long way beyond what might be considered a normal not seeing eye to eye thing.

Blaming her for the DS's behaviour (criticising her parenting skills) is a tactic that is designed to seriously undermine her confidence in herself. It's a horrible sort of criticism because it affects how the child sees himself too -- even at a young age the DS may have begun thinking he is the cause of trouble between his parents.

I dont agree that I dont get stressed by my dc behaviour but with dh get goes beyond that he takes it so personally. Ofcourse I shout at them sometimes especially when they are really naughty but not over every single thing or going ott in the bullying flyinhg into a rage way. They are 2 and a half and 4.8! My h is constantly saying hurtful things lately like we should have behaved ourselves 5 years ago.

He does control me in so many ways. I have to account for my day especially if the house isnt to his liking when he gets in, my shopping and he texts me for out the day fretting about tea which always has to be to his approval or negetiated or he goes on and on from tea time onwards. I'm sure thats why my oldest went through a phrase of only easting pasta and chesse. Yes he does get annoyed with me and flys into rages. But there are other times when we have great times as a family and thats what I want all the time.

Have a look at this, especially the narcissist section, if you think he is taking the children's behaviour personally. This is not a good sign, especially with the control thing too. Do you wait for the other shoe to fall during the happy times?

now everyone is going to tell you how abusive he is and accuse you of putting your head in the sand.

you need to look at his behaviour and figure out if it can get better. counselling, GP, anger management
you can't carry on like this.
you need to talk to him and get to the bottom of it. If it doesn't get better you need to think about how life would be without it.

i have recently done this, and once you get your head around it, it's not that hard.
you don't deserve this, life is too short.

Just realised the terrible grammatical and typo errors I made!! I meant to put he is controling over my shopping/spending which I therrefore try to keep to a minimum but it is never ever enough in his eyes, how I spend my day, and what I'm doing for tea gets angry over the house if its not tidy enough and texts me throughout the day regarding how I am how the boys are what I'm doing and whats for tea. Typing it seems terrible I guess I've learnt to get used to it now but it does get annoying at times.

oh dear springchik. that IS a problem....start keeping a log/diary and see if it is daily/weekly what? and for what reason?
if you having to behave in certain way just to keep him from raging - then it is not good...

ob i think that occasions it may seem ok to shout "I have had enough of your bad behiour, doing xxxxx when i told you not to do it" and then go on to the consequence - you are going on the naughty step/you losing your treat/whatever...

but when you add: " it never stops, there is only so much i can cope with'.
it puts a huge burden on the child and you putting your issues onto him?

if you cannot cope with continual persistent specific behaviour then you need help?

and the ignore bad behaviour/praise the good beahviour model may prove more effective...

Springchik, it doesn't sound good. He's grinding you down, and it's affecting your DSs too.

But why should you have to get used to it?

I called womens aid about a week before easter and they gave me the number of the local outreach team. I havent called them because things did improve for a time but are now getting back to how they were when I rang iyswim? Also I'm worried they wouldn't actually consider it to be domestic abuse and if they do how would they help me? My problems seem so trivial compared to other womens problems they must come across.

keep a diary for a week or so then go speak to them again. if you start recording every time he exhibits behaviour which make you feel bad/makes you "walk on eggshells" then you might begin to appreaciate how bad it is/isnt....

and how little (or how much) he appreciates or respects you and what you do....

no, this isn't going to change springchik. Something has to be done, you must know that it isn't going to get better.
don't worry about what the outreach team think, they will have calls from all different situations, they will help you, or find someone that can help you. Even the citizens advice can help you. I broke down on the phone to them, the lady was so lovely, and it was more about finances than my/his emotional state.
Please try and talk to someone.

I'm happy to hear you have spoken to them, Springchik, because that means you understand what you're going through isn't normal.

Your 'partner' tries to control your every move, dominates the household with his anger, keeps you short of money ... You are NOT living as a free human being, with rights & responsibilities of your own; you're living more like a slave. There's a helpful Q&A page on the Womens Aid site that might interest you.

A big part of the problem with this kind of abuse is the way it undermines you, so you end up feeling like this is as a good as it gets, or even what you deserve. As you probably realise, your kids are growing up to believe this is a normal family so they will go on to have abusive relationships of their own. When they're a little bit older, they may develop behavioural problems & bullying issues at school - due to thinking it's acceptable to be controlling & over-critical. They're also likely to start treating you the way their dad does

I really do know how hard it is to get your head around all of this. I feel for you. Calling the outreach team wouldn't do any harm, would it? It's just talking to someone.

Tonight ds2 ran off with the remote control and we later couldnt find it. H went spare when I came down from putting ds to bed he was furious every time I tried to talk to him he shouted back I said do you mind not shouting ds2 is in bed to which he bellowed back I AM NOT SHOUTING!! and ofcourse ds2 came downstairs really upset. He then belllowed WHERE IS THERE REMOTE CONTROL DS2 TELL ME TELL ME!!! And then GET TO BED NOW! But ofcourse he wouldnt took ages to settle him he was so upset.

Still havent found the remote but I dont know why it was so important to him as he is out tonight!

Good, that means you've got some time to yourself - you could use it to do a bit of research and call someone for advice

No he doesnt keep me short of money as we have a joint account and we are not struggling money wise by any means but everytime I take money out or do the weekly shop etc he wants all the details right down to the cost of individual things. I shop online now and he always scutinizes the email to see what I've spent. I have my own account with some savings init (we have a joint one with savings too) He is always talking about my account and wanting me to spend money on basic things from that rather than the joint one even though we are not short so no need to.