Stately home threaders - help pls!

[DeFluff]

I was on the Stately Home thread a long time ago, prob under a different name, the lovely posters listened to me + helped with my 'parent issues'. I ended up writing my parents a letter and attending counselling. Eventually we all talked and they heard what i had to say and apologised for aspects of my childhood. Relationship now much better although some tensions still there.

But, I need to check whether IABU or not to be angry at my parents and no I'm not posting in AIBU! My exh has done the following (this is only some of it) (our DD is 5, he moved 200 miles away when we split):

1. Pretended not working for last 9 months even though was working, so as not to pay maintenance or half court order for school fees. Lied repeatedly when asked about job, we found out through FB.

1. Fought me for access (through solicitors not courts, he wanted MORE access) and when I agreed to once every 2 weeks he straight away said he could only do once every 4 weeks due to lack of money (he actually comes once every 5 weeks)

1. DD upset at only seeing him once every 4/5 weeks + asked him to see her more often, he said he couldn't due to not working and therefore lack of money, but he WAS working

1. Tried to trick me over the maintenance and court order so as not to pay anything (he's a solicitor he told me I wouldn't win because of x, y, z he was lying)

1. Told dd couldn't afford to see her one weekend, next weekend went on holiday to Florence with his girlfriend

1. Took dd in a car with no mot/tax/insurance

1. When dd was younger he swung two punches at my head when I was holding her in my arms (he aimed them to miss)

1. When has dd always wants to bring back early/shorten times because of football/wanting to go to pub

1. Lots and lots of stuff similar to above.

My parents are friendly to him when they talk to him on phone. When he (occasionally) picks up dd from theirs they ask if he'd like to stay to lunch etc. They are also friendly with his dad (who has been complicit in all his bad behaviour) and shake hands with both of them when they meet up.

If I try to talk to them about how I feel or tell them what new crap exh has pulled my father tells me he doesn't want to hear it, typical comment 'we know he's an idiot we don't need to discuss it again' and my mum puts on a dismissive tone of voice and changes the subject.

They say they are trying to keep friendly so as they can offer another 'route' for him with dd. They have both told me they dislike him. But I feel betrayed every single time they stick up for him or shake his hand or are even polite to him and his father.

Whats sparked this this time is my parents took dd down to exh house for a visit today and I said to my father 'could you mention the fact that he's missed the deadline (again) for sending the CSA forms back please' I was half joking but actually don't see why my dad couldn't have taken him to one side and said it. My dad basically said I was mad and 'no way'.

AIBU to feel betrayed that they are nice to him after all he's done to me and more importantly their granddaughter??

Sorry for length, jeez no wonder I'm boring my parents!!

I feel your frustration. But I can't say I think they 'should' take sides.

Your ex seems to enjoy playing some very weird control games - aimed purely at getting one over on you, as far as I can tell from your post. I'm assuming your parents aren't averse to the odd bit of weird game-playing, therefore they probably don't see him the same way you do.

It is virtually impossible to get someone to see things through a different "filter"; all you can do is ask them to respect your differing viewpoint.

You must have asked yourself if you're feeling of betrayal is so strong because of how they betrayed you in the past? Understandable. I think in this, present case, you ought to let them sit in the middle if they want.

Grace - Firstly, thanks for reading My parents are strange, totally lovely but with some weird bits. Within ten mins of entering my house they will have commented on the mess, asked why i haven't done things eg changed lightbulbs/fixed table/cleaned hall, tell me I'm parenting my two dd's incorrectly, usually through my dd eg 'isn't mummy silly?' type stuff.

Oh and they think i'm lazy and that my dp does too much (my dad is extremely sexist). They also think we're a bit thick, which is strange as only postgrads (or even degrees) in family are myself and sibling but my dad rang twice to remind us to put suncream in dd's bag.

I totally cleared the kitchen out the other day and spring cleaned. My parents came round. 'well done' said my dad my mum the next day said 'are you keeping it tidy? does it still look same as yesterday shall i go and check' !!!!! I'm 34 with a post grad education, 2 dds, a senior job, my own house and and and I'm 34 (worth saying twice surely!). Is this normal?

And yes I think you're totally right re betrayal by them in the past making this hurt more. Thing is I've been to counselling (10 sessions i think it was) surely I should be over all this by now?

Aaaah. I got the impression from your first post that you'd resolved most of your problems with P&M but they're still very much pushing you buttons, aren't they?

Personally I feel it's a bit pointless getting aerated over the business with your ex, when there's so much else going on there too.

Catch me on Stately Homes if you want to pursue this ... 10 sessions? I've done 10 years and I'm still not quite "cooked"!
Takes more a couple of months to fix a lifetime of errors

Thank you Dittany and Grace.

The day of the punches I rang my dad in tears and he raced over to pick me up. That afternoon he and exfil were talking in the garden and my dad said that exh and i were 'silly children who needed their heads banging together'. I was so upset I ran off crying. He's often said re the divorce that 'you aren't exactly easy to live with are you?'

It's difficult to explain, the counsellor said I had attachment disorder and that I was too black and white eg I thought my parents were either lovely or hideous. She said people aren't good or bad just normal.

My parents just gave DP and I a five figure sum as a present, they have dd2 one day a week to give me a break, they used to have dd1 the same and overnight each week before she started school, when I had bd illness they came over and cleaned house. That's why I say they are lovely. But, mentally they scar me. Most of the time I ignore, but recently am down anyway and its all playing on my mind. Think I will come join you on Stately Homes again but I feel a fraud as I don't think its bad bad like some poor posters have gone through.

If I do say anything to my parents I'm told I'm being 'sensitive' or my mum goes all 'oh I just won't speak at all then if that's how you feel'.

Dittany - do you think that constantly critising me is not normal then?

I bought Toxic Parents and found it useful but I think that's just the way my parents are, I'm sure they don't mean any harm clutches at straws.

And I feel really disloyal to them for even posting any of this, they'd be hottified and so upset if they knew.

DeFluff, have a read of the introductory post on Stately Homes. We all think "it's not that bad", because that's what our parents told us. Your Mum is still denying your right to feel your own feelings, with her snidey 'sensitive' remarks.

Dittany's questions about how you treat DD are very relevant, you know ...

Btw, it doesn't take everyone ten years. I just happen to have been very screwed-up. Ten sessions is a bit short, though!

Thank you Dittany, I really appreciate your comments and the reading suggestions. I'm the sort of person who likes to read and think about things that way.

As I said above the counsellor said the reason I was having so many problems about all this was because i can only see them as good or bad, so i can't tally their 'good' behviour (being so helpful with dds etc) with the other things they do that are 'bad' eg the constant criticism. The other fly in the ointment is my elder brother. He thinks my parents are wonderful and says i was always a brat as a child. I wonder whether my experiences with my parents are real, how could two sibings feel so differently? I constantly question whether they really are being mean or perhaps i am difficult, sensitive etc etc

I certainly don't do it with my dd, I've made a conscious effort not to, I catch myself occasionally and stop straight away.

God, this is so not going to get better is it? It's been going on for years now.

grace - i will do, i've seen both you and dittany around a lot and think you both talk an enormous amount of sense and would definitely like to join the sh thread again.

When i say 'not that bad' i'm being serious though, there was no physical abuse, no sexual abuse, we had clothes and toys and holidays etc, it was just very stressful with all the criticsm, are you sure i'd still be welcome?

YANBU, come over to Stately Homes. My Dad and sister do this to my abusive ex. They have made it very clear that they do not want to know any of the reasons I left and have made clear they think I'm overreacting etc. Lunch, dropping by - all very familiar.

Sorry to say, I do not think you are done with your parents yet. Maybe read Toxic Parents again and personally I think counselling is not the right thing for these situations, psychotherapy with someone experienced in abuse is much more effective.

Very interesting you should say that re bottom of the heap. I think he's a bit scared. He'd started having panic attacks a year or so ago, totally not like him, he's very succesful, massive house, sah wife, 2 lovely children, fabulous holidays etc. Anyway, he saw a counsellor and they wanted to talk about our parents and he went mad, said it was nothing to do with his upbringing and that if they mentioned it again he'd leave. I thought this was a weird response. He did say to me though that denial of what happened might be a sign of toxic parenting but also if really nothing had happened then parents would also deny, therefore he said the parents couldn't win. Not really sure how to answer that.

I was always the black sheep of the family, the 'naughty' one.

And yes re confusing, even now I never know what I'll get if I go round there or they ring, sometimes lovely, sometimes just either not interested or constant critiscm.

Will order books and reread toxic and wit for next sh thred to start and jump in i think - thanks Queen.

Thank you to everyone, I'm obviously not quite as sorted re parents as i thought i was. x

Sorry, another question just occcured to me. Is it possible that they are still good people, that they just aren't aware of what they're doing? I know they would be horrified to be called abusive. I am frightened I will end up hating them and that wouldn't be fair. They're certainly not malicious I don't think, they just don't realise how their words hurt.

I think maybe they're just kind of doing the best they can? I know my dad's father was very strict and his mother once broke a broom handle across his back when he was young. My mum's mum is also very, very criticising. So you go with how you were brought up maybe? Although as I said they were never physical with us at all. If you ask my dad re the things his mum used to do he just says 'it was normal back then. Never hurt me etc' he actually went unconscious over the broom incident because it hit his kidneys I think.

Lots to think on.

Your last post is so sad. You desperately want to believe they can still be 'good' people and loving parents, so much so that you are willing to take the blame on yourself.

You don't deserve any of this, they are responsible for their behaviour. I am sorry it has been so awful for you.

ime, DeFluff, it's usual to go through a period of hating them - it's a back-swing type of thing. Of course there are always underlying reasons. Most abusive parents were, themselves, abused. Some have serious mental illness. Disabled and/or chronically sick parents can often be abusive ... The list of reasons for abusive behaviour is long! But reasons are not excuses; you have been (are being) abused and that's what you have to deal with - or not, though clearly you are about to deal with it

Interesting about your brother. My bros & sis started to ease up on the "It's Fine!" routine after I started therapy. Possibly your bro will open up as you work through your own process.

At the end of the day, your parents are who they are - good & bad, warts & all. I suppose this is what your counsellor was trying to say (not very well, evidently.) Some people decide they can't cope with their parents and cut contact. Others, like me, come to see them as the flawed humans they are - and become less 'involved' with them, so less vulnerable.

It is not necessary or normal to be put down (at all) or constantly criticised by your parents. It is not acceptable to slag off someone's housekeeping or to assume they're incompetent. I'm sure your P&M have many lovely qualities, but they also insult you, dismiss your feelings & opinions, put you down and try to control everyday aspects of your life. In those respects - well, they're not very lovely are they?

I feel sure you will benefit from doing some work around these issues. When you've succeeded in balancing your feelings about them, you will find you can stop them galloping through your personal boundaries and be far less 'triggered' by their crappier behaviours. This also, unsurprisingly, eases your other relationships in life and enhances your sense of freedom.

The books on your list are good. Go well with them

Just read that back & realised some of it might look inflammatory to some people. Trying to cram too much in a few pargraphs. Sorry.

Certainly doesn't look inflammtory to me Grace, thank you and thank you Queen.

Everyone is mking much sense and I'm feeling a little scared but think its a journey that needs to start. It can't be good for my dd to hear her mum criticised (my other dd is only 3 months, but again same is true for her when shes older).

Will join you on sh soon xx

defluff Just a quick post, because I promised myself no MNing this weekend
I agree with everything dittany and grace have said, you've been given some great advice so I cant add much more.
I can assure you it is and continues to be 'bad enough' for you. You dont need to justify yourself I can see from what you write how bad it is and continues to be. They are riding roughshod over your feelings and belittling you in front of your Dc's and they have no right to do this.
Dont wait for a new thread of sh to start just jump in...you'd be more than welcome and it sounds as though you could really do with the support.

DF you have had some great advice here regarding reaching the deeper issues.
i also think you need to address the criticism issue.
your home is the one place in the world where you can control the inflow of criticism, and you absolutely do not have to tolerate this!
maybe next time you are criticised within your own home you can remind your parents that it is very rude to walk into someone else's home and criticise, and that they can either be polite or leave.
the criticism itself needs to be challenged, rather than their 'reasons' for crticising you. don't enter into a discussion in which you defend the condition of your home, just say you will not be criticised within these walls, end of.
also any attempt to put you down to your dd needs to be challenged. if your parents refer to you as 'silly' to your dd, you can tell your dd (in front of your parents) that you are not silly; you are educated, intelligent, and are being judged very harshly. you also need to pull your parents aside and remind them that they are being very rude in putting you down to your dd and that it stops now or contact with your dd's will be restricted.

DeFluff - books will only take you so far - they can give you insight and a framework of language, but I'd say the counselling (or possibly CBT) would be the way to go, as then you're actively tackling your inner issues.

MIND do free, open ended counselling.

I have on-going issues with my Dad - but he's 76 so as my counsellor says, it's somewhat unrealistic to expect him to change his behaviour. All I can do is change my response to his behaviour. I swear he's ASD too.

J - thanks for answering. I'm finding it all a bit difficult to be honest. When I'm not thinking about it I'm ok and can be 'fluffy defluff' if you see what I mean. The minute it comes to mind I'm a snivelling wreck.

I will definitely follow your link, open ended sounds good, my original counselling was short duration and working towards an end goal, it sort of worked but now not so

I need to change my response too but I'm shit at it. When my dad acts all weird on the phone (not interested, snappy, won't speak etc) I spend the next two days wondering constantly what I have done to upset him and going over it again and again in my mind. Same with my mum.

Counsellor did say that that was what was most damaging, that I never knew which I'd get each time I spoke to them eg 'nice' or 'nasty' parent. Its the uncertainty that makes it bad apparently. I also am being unrealistic in thinking they will change but also I just can't accept how they are as I can feel a little bit of my soul getting crushed each time they do it (sorry for the dramtics). I do think though that they don't know they're being mean, I think they think they're joking (my dad calls me 'fatty')

Are your issues similar, ignore me obv if don't want to share

Not sure how helpful this is but when my exp assaulted me infront of our DD a few years ago and I threw him out, my dad said he "didnt want to get involved" and I was devastated. I lost him for 2 years as a result as I could not believe that after all the abuse I had been through my own dad (who i had held in 'hero' status) did not jump to my defense but instead seemed to 'blame' me for what happened to us!!!

Life moved on and I now have 2 DD's and a fabulous partner and agonized over a letter I received from my dad ...not apologising but saying he is there for me!!!

I wrote back telling him exactly how I felt from his refusal to protect me and my DD at the time and his betrayal (he was feeding EXP info about us which could of led to us being seriously hurt)!

Anyway (and sorry for all history) thinks are ok with us now and we have some semblence of a relationship as father and daughter. It has changed the dynamics and I feel he now respects me or at least treats me with respect which is the main thing!

It was so scary making a stand against him and my exp at same time and I felt i was fighting 2 fights on my own but it has worked out better for me in the end!!!!

Guess I am just trying to say that you know how you SHOULD be treated and don't have to accept anything less.

Good luck I really feel what youre going through but remember you count too! xx