abusive men.

[saddest]

There seem to be so many of them, and they are all exactly the same.

I have some questions that have not been answered by anyone yet....maybe someone here can help.

I have been told/read, that they know that they are doing it. But really do they? Or is it just that they are so conditioned that it is almost a pavlovian thing. Wife=abuse. If they really know that they are doing it, in a consious way, that makes them psychpathic doesn't it?

If as I have read, they split off their cut off feeling and personality traits and deposit them in their partner, how do they rationalise this? Do they really not understand that hte partner is a whole individual in her own right?

How does it FEEL to be so cut off from your own personality, do they have an inkling that it may be them that's odd, weird, wrong whatever?

How come they are so utterly convinced of their "rightness". Often they are bright, and I just don't get how someone can be so completely irrational and determined to destroy everything for the sake of never being wrong. Ultimately, they hurt themselves more.

How come they can cope with other human beings but not their partner....although I have read that they can plant their cut off bits into employers, children etc.

If my Psychotherapist could plant trigger words in my subconsious that gave me the balls to stop the relationship....why can't someone plant triggers in these many, many men to get them to get help and stop it.

The thing that really gets me is this. The wall between them and health is very high and very wide, but it is also paper thin. All it takes is humility (which they may have in other circumstances) and a decision to get help.

Why is all this so destructive and so hard?

Ruby, this is the crux:

"most days is tends to grind me down and erode my fragile self esteem."

he is doing it to grind you down and erase your self esteem.... a joke (even a bad one) doesn't do that.

I know LF, and what is so worrying is the way it has rubbed off on my son and he is copying the behaviour of his father. Sometimes I listen to him and he sounds just the same... it's awful

That's why I put my foot down, because I could see it affecting my children.

My ds identified "defining" behaviour on wife swap, of all things. He said..."that's what daddy does!" He could see how wrong it is! He could see that he'd been doing it to me and his sister. He still winds his sister up, but they are begining to be softer and gentler, with me and each other.

I always felt that as the one who produced a boy...a crime against humanity to my "mother", I had a special resonsibility to produce a kind, loving, respectful man...as far as I possibly could.

My kids will KNOW that abusing people, even in jest is so wrong, it means leaving.

It is the hardest thing I have ever done.

I taught my son the best lesson possible..i stood up to his father..ultimately,and then left him...I hope that in doing so a resounding lesson will have been taught..Woman are not lower in value than men.

My observations, nothing definitive:

1] My dad, who fit most descriptions of a sociopath/psychopath, was a volcano of conflicting emotions. He was a sadist and used to knock me about "for fun", laughing. He had very strong ethics in some areas, and was - inside himself - deeply unhappy & tortured. His death may well have been suicide. There was hideous abuse in his childhood. He was mad.

2] XH#1 was the glamorous man-about-town, with a multitude of friends - who had no respect for him. He was shallow, vain and abusive to his subordinates at work as well as to me. His mother doted on him, having made him her 'replacement husband' - she stopped speaking to the original after he hit her. XH#1, therefore, grew up as his mother's perfect man - but was faced, daily, with the sorry, broken creature his mother had made of his father. Nasty conflict to resolve; who wouldn't try to ignore it?

3] Mad Ex-Boss was the template NPD. His history was a tissue of ever-changing lies but it's safe to assume he grew up in some war-torn outpost of the old Soviet Union. A person whose survival probably depended on bullshit & deceit, and who had to win or be lost.

4] XH#2 was a misfit with misfit parents. He doesn't trust himself (rightly!) and can't trust anybody else, either. But he desperately wants to feel close to other people, so constantly swings between over-investing in his relationships and screwing them up.

For all of the above, childhood failed to give them the safe, balanced care that a person needs to grow up secure & healthy. I think, perhaps, men feel great pressure to be "right" and "strong". Maybe this leads them to convert their problems into aggression, and makes them scared to consider the possibility that they're wrong or have weaknesses.

Having said that, I didn't seek therapy until my forties. I was, also, very driven to be strong and successful - but less so than a man, and far less aggressively.

I'd be quite interested to know if SGB has anything to add here?

Saddest, you're really impressive, you know?
Ruby, I hope you break out of that trap, and soon.

IGA... I don't know where to start

No I'm not Grace.

I am a heartbroken, confused, devastated mother of two beautiful children.

I just want to understand so that I can try to make it better.

I can't begin to describe the utter bewilderment that I have been left with.

People say there is a reason for stuff. Maybe the reason is, so that I once and for all face the rest of my demons and "put them to bed".

I am trying to avoid magical thinking and find out what the hell happened since last summer.

Saddest..to understand 'why' you would have to be able to empathise with him...thats a tall order under the circumstances...let it go,just sit back on your heels and let it go..you wont find peace trying to understand..believe me x

That's extremely true, Littleblue. I kind of understand the desire to understand, though - reading my own post above, I couldn't have written it even one year ago. I had to do a LOT of work to get that much perspective ... and the work I had to was on my self. I know this is what Saddest is also doing: sometimes we need to know what it is about us, that made us willing to love the irredeemably damaged.

Some people are just randomly drawn in - conned, basically - by abusers. Once they get out, they can take a big breath of fresh air, piece their lives back together and move on. Others of us recognise some damage, within ourselves, which attracted abusers to us and vice versa. Moving on from that is a bigger task but a life-saving one. It takes quite a bit of soul-searching.

Have name changed for this...not sure if DH is starting the pattern of abusive behaviour..

Ok, to start with he is from a different culture where the men are generally firey but its all bluff..however, there are times with our child that I feel he is getting more angry than he should (never hits him or anything like that, I would never stand for that) and I end up trying to soothe the situation or sometimes taking over with the discipline so that he can just go away and calm down

Recently he was cross with DS as he was being a sod, wasn't getting dressed etc and this is fair enough. But, then DS put something in his mouth and it got stuck and he was really frightened, crying etc. Obviously, my disciplining stopped right there and then and I took the object out, calm him down, gave him a cuddle etc. DH though just remained unmoved and kept saying I told you so to DS, looking angry etc and I said look, he's scared just give it a rest

Argument them follows about how I'm too soft, don't discipline DS etc and then he tells me you have pissed me off so much, I'm going to whack DS. Obviously I don't allow this and we scuffle in the hallway, with me pushing him and shoving him away.

He claims that he had no intention of hitting DS and that if he wanted to push past me to hit him, he would have done...however, the whole you have pissed me off so I'm going to whack DS thing is setting alarm bells ringing...

He is extremely stressed in work and doesn't sleep well so a part of me thinking is this stress/depression talking...I don't know...would welcome some thoughts to be honest..

Bloody hell HFV that sounds pretty disturbing; he is using hitting your DS to punish you (and him of course). Like he is testing how much he can push and get away with.

You also say that he would never hit your DS but that you had to have a "scuffle" in the hall to prevent him going further and whacking him.

You must be v shaken up by these episodes, does he apologise? Is he mortified afterwards? He should be

Well, he said to me if I wanted to push past you to hit DS I could have couldn't I??! ie he wasn't actually going to do it but as I said to him, well, I couldn't take that chance as I'm not a mind reader...he then said I've never hit you or him so why would i start now

He didn't seem too bothered by it to be honest...he kept saying I've got a problem with discipline and that's why DS getting spoilt but DS is actually well behaved and no different to any other toddler with his not getting dressed antics. My problem was the using DS to punish me issue...it doesn't sit right with me

You need to stop listening to him..stop letting him bend your brain!..he's now using your love for your child to control you..please see that for what it is?..this is DOMESTIC VIOLENCE..ok??..you dont have to take a punch/end up in casualty etc etc...he will up his game each and every time one of his tactics fails to work..he will use something else...I once got in between my exe and my teenage son when he threatened to lump him..he was 14,and now at 19,he still struggles with anger and depression,but got his exams eventually and a place at Uni
Grace,i cant share my old posts as i deleted everything when he stalked me on mumsnet 3 years ago...but i lived with a nightmare,deeply abusive man..ended up drinking ,self harming and faced losing my family unless i left him....im in a far better place now,relatively ordinary man dramas now lol

I think this is interesting.... the analogy that Patricia Evans usess in her book The Verbally Abusive Relationship.

i.e. - the idea that an abuser is living in a totally different Reality to you. So, you could be having a conversation about a sensitive issue...you think he will understand the words you say....BUT he is in a totally different Reality to you, so his words don't mean to him what you think they do. This is a weird concept...but I think once you get it - it explains alot. Not sure if SGB and grace will agree with me but..

Don't know if that helps you saddest, and if you haven't read Patricia Evans - please do.

Precisely!!..my DV counsellor summed it up as a 'different rule book'.

Totally! Yes, mumonthenet! This can be the hardest thing for anybody - most of all, a partner - to get their head round.

Connected to that: people like me, who grew up in an 'alternate Reality', can end up feeling we have a duty to understand all those other Realities. In a way: our Reality is one where everybody's weird, and it's our job to make sense of them. (Conditioning, from another point of view.) To break through that, we must first understand it. It's double-layered, iyswim?

HFV, would your H's "fiery" culture be one where men are macho and boys must be toughened up, by any chance? Can you get him to talk about this properly - with acknowledgement that little boys are little children, and any hurt that might bring up for him?

The incident you described is disturbing and I hope you can resolve it. I think it would make me cautious, as you feel.

yes, after understanding that your Abuser lives in another Reality, you must also learn that you don't need to try to understand this other Reality. In fact it is probably even more damaging (to you) if you do.

What is important is not that you understand this Reality, it is that you see that there IS ONE....and that whilst your abuser lives in that Reality he will continue to act accordingly.

I really must go to bed. I hope that you can start to get some clarity...I am sure tha you will.

sorry, for typos and nonsense.... am wishing clarity for saddest and everyone else in this situation, of course.

Good night.

I have read the last patricia Evans book, and found that to be the most useful of all on this subject.

I will get the others too I think.

I find understanding does help, a lot. I am having lightbulb moments on a daily basis.

Patricia Evans is essentially positive though, and believs that healing can happen.

For the time being, I can only help myself and my babies. And like Grace....this relationship is one of a collection of alternate realities I have had to deal with.

Do you know, I really wish that more people knew about this subject. It would save SOOOOOO much heartache.

Hiding from view....It was when he started to push my ds around that I said enough was enough. It only ever gets worse they say.

Not a culture where boys are expected to be tough etc, more a culture where boys get most things done for them and the men grow up expecting that women facilitate their lives for them - of course, this is a generalisation and not all the men are like this there

DH is very traditional in this respect. On the days where I don't work, he does expect me home when he is home and his dinner on the go and his reasoning his you have been home, I've been at work the least I can expect is a meal ready - he doesn't really do any cooking. This is part of the culture though and I accepted that when I married into it

However, now its getting to the point where if he comes home on my non working days and I am late, he gets cross. Often I am late as I have been with my friends and the time runs away with us, I get stuck in traffic or whatever and it does have a knock on effect on DS's bed time as he naps in the car and doesn't go to bed on time so I can see where that makes DH a bit [mm] but if DH has plans and doesn't come right home from work, he will then not give a toss about DS's routine or food. Its very much a child ego state -I'm ok, fk everyone else...

I worry that I am rationalising his behaviour too much but this is a tricky situation as I have the cultural aspect to take into consideration. Most of the women in his culture would be of the opinion that he is working so when you are home, the meal should be ready for him

Yesterday for example, I was late leaving my friends and so a bit late cooking for him. He was angry because he was hungry and his dinner was late and rooting through the fridge in an angry manner trying to find something to snack while waiting and I felt quite tense with this. Not because I thought he was going to do anything, but its not a nice atmosphere to have is it

He is also very moody as he is so tired in the mornings - DS doesn't sleep very well and so its disruptive for us and long term constant sleep deprivation is a killer - I don't think we have had more than 10 days in a row where DS has gone through the night without waking for something or the other - and he's 4!

An example of the real me not existing to him, and how the gaslighting starts.

Yesterday, we spoke on the phone to arrange times for the weekend access.

I asked him how he was.

At the end of the conversation, armed with my new knowledge, I said, are you going to ask how I am? He said that he had asked me. Well I had kind of done this as an experiment, so was taking particular notice. He didn't ask. He never asks about me at all..... because I don't exist. His dream woman/ implanted reality, well, he already knows how she is, so doesn't need to ask.

He was adamant that he had asked me and that I had answered that I was fine. A whole imaginary conversation, which once would have had me questioning my sanity. Totally made up.

Extraordinary isn't it? That's why he thinks he has no problem....it really is a separate reality. It's mind boggling!!!!

My Mum did it again the other day, Saddest - I had to ring someone up and explain that what she'd told them about me was entirely made up (embarassing, but needed to be done as it was a practical matter.)

The one that got to me with XH was a smallish thing, compared to most of his 'misperceptions', but somehow it knocked a hole through my wall of denial. I used always to buy a Big Issue from the seller outside my office. One evening I forgot and mentioned it to H, who said "What are you on about? You've never bought a Big Issue in your life!" See, he wasn't married to me at all ... just some made-up woman. I was a placeholder for the woman in his head.

As you say: mind-boggling

Gas lighting?