Need help getting through this...

[scarlotti]

Have posted a few times on here about my marriage. DH does very little - he calls it being laid back, I call it lazy. I wondered if he was passive aggressive and posted this thread WWIFN gave some very insightful advice.
It would seem as though whilst to the outside world I am in control, he is subtly controlling what's going on and likes to make out all the issues are my fault.

We went to relate last night for the first time. He said his lack of financial responsibility was down to the fact I earn more and so he felt he couldn't have any responsibility. He said that he doesn't do things because he feels he can't do them to my standards (I didn't realise my standards were high, you should see the state of the house). He said he would be happy if I stopped moaning. We initially were going to do with sex life issues and he was a bit annoyed that we didn't cover that, and didn't see why unhappiness in the relationship should be addressed first.

She suggested we sit down and work out who's responsible for what, he thinks that's a daft idea but after denigrating it all evening then said we ought to do it - I suspect so that next week he can say he was willing to do it.

I'm not happy but DD is due to do her gcse's this summer so feel I ought to stay until they're over. We have two DS' between us (4 and 4months). I said life is easier when he's not around as then I don't look at him resenting what he's not doing, but get on with it and life is much lighter. He thought that was ridiculous.

Not sure why I'm posting ... some virtual hand holding maybe? Any insightful replies ... although appreciate it's hard to know the ins and outs from my limited posts.
DS2 crying so will have to cut this short.
TIA.

Have to put my nine month old to bed but just wanted you to know you're not on your own. Thinking of you, take it a day at a time and get a plan together. That's what I'm doing.

Hi I guess I should know this as you've posted on other threads and might have mentioned it there but what do you mean by 'lack of financial responsibility'?

skinny - all the bills are in my name, mortgage joint. I do all the budgeting and he just pays a set amount. I had to ask him to increase it to save for my maternity leave - he looked to see what more he could afford to put in before he agreed. We've never done the 'sit down and see what we spend' thing. I asked him to fill in a budget spreadsheet once (from a website) and he didn't. I roughly know what he earns but not exactly, and have no idea what he does with the spare money he has each month. Any month there's a shortfall in the joint account, I top it up.

Sorry, should have given more background but was in a rush as had to sort the baby. Here's some of what I've posted before:

He will say he'll do stuff but never does, but that could just be him being lazy. He will avoid decisions and anything serious and just make a joke instead. He doesn't take responsibility for anything in our house/life but wants input into everything, from small stuff like choosing curtains to the big stuff like finances and childcare etc. (don't have an issue with the wanting input but do have an issue with wanting input but not being prepared to actually do anything)

we both work full time. I am off on maternity at the moment and have had to save enough money to stay off as he will not contribute more.
I don't mind the input into things around the house, what annoys me is the 'no, I don't like that' but no indication as to what is acceptable so that it can be sorted out. Bigger things though are blocked when they don't have any impact on him - we have a serious parking issue in our street, I want to sort the garage so I can park in there, he doesn't want to bother. He doesn't drive so it makes no odds to him, it's me that struggles to park and then get the dc's home iyswim.
I'll say the lawn needs mowing, he'll say he'll do it (I was heavily pg at the time), he doesn't but won't let me get someone in to do it. In the end my DD(15) did it as the ds' couldn't play in the garden as it was so long.

He will admit that he leaves taking responsibility for things to me, but will then say that I want it that way as I'm a control freak.

Sounds just like my H. I posted my first ever threat last week on MN and am starting to take the inspired advice doled out and saw solicitor today and am now seriously considering terms for a separation order. (He's still here but the scales have fallen from my eyes)

I'm done being his mother/banker/chef/doormat and sick of his financial fck ups... tosser wasted a grand* on overdue parking fines this month alone. Not much advice just wanted you to let you know I know kind of how it is. My DDs both say the house is calmer when he's not here which speaks volumes too.

A friend said to me today - this is the beginning not the end and I actually can believe it.

ladylovestocook - I read your thread, the parking tickets rings the bell. Good for you, am glad you've started the ball rolling to get things sorted out for you.
Part of the issue for me I think is that he's not a bad man, almost wish he was so I had a reason to blow up and kick him out.
My DD says things which show she thinks he's not pulling his weight and I hate to think I'm teaching her to be a doormat in a relationship.

Am hanging on until she finishes her exams as I think that's probably the right thing to do. Hopefully it is.

Scarlotti I'm too tired to be much use to you at this time (hopefully you are in bed any way). Just wanted to extend a virtual hand to hold.

Scarlotti, I definitely think you're doing the right thing waiting until DD's GCSEs are over. It is just a few months, but upheaval at this point could be really stressful for her. Also, knowing that you can't do anything for a few months gives you time to work out what you really want in a more controlled way - not reacting to exactly how you are feeling at the moment, but considering what you want for the future.

And be glad he's not a bad man - he will be part of your DSs lives forever.

Thanks Laugs, it does feel the right thing to do even if at times it's really hard. Using the time to plan is a good suggestion.
I hope he does stay a big part of the DS' lives, and DD if he chooses to, and am hoping that the inevitable fallout when it happens isn't too horrendous.

Scarlotti - I think the exercise the counsellor suggested will be quite revealing - if he does it. She has used the word "responsible" rather than "does" - so this implies that if say the washing doesn't get done - and it's his responsibility to do it, it is his responsibility for that failure.
When you both do that list, bear that in mind!

One of the other issues is about the quality of the work iyswim. Let's imagine that you both create a list that is fair in terms of division of labour/amount of leisure time. If he "accidentally" does all the the things on his list badly - so badly that they need re-doing by you - that's yet another evasion of responsibility. So there needs to be an agreement that both of you will complete tasks to the best of your ability.

Your finances are quite singular aren't they? I was just interested in whether this had any bearing on the general relationship. Our money goes into one central pot and we don't have "his" and "her" money - this might also be worth exploring in terms of your attitudes to one another.

Remember what we said in your earlier thread. It is extremely unlikely that you are a perfectionist control freak who actually enjoys this dynamic. Might be worth asking him whether he enjoys being irresponsible and laid back? It would be so revealing to see whether if he actually took responsibility for doing things well, whether your "nagging and complaining" would stop. I'd bet it would.

You're right to wait for the GCSEs to be over, but be careful that it doesn't just become a waiting game. The Relate sessions should really be an opportunity to try to save the marriage and if you aren't fully invested in this, it might be doomed to failure. Might be worth you both having a conversation outside of the Relate sessions about your real objectives at Relate - you might not be on the same page at all.

WWIFN - thanks for taking time to respond, I'd hoped you might find my thread

Funny you should say about the difference between responsible and does, I was wondering that myself. I hope we do get the exercise done as I think it will show a big disparity as to who is responsible for what. Also interesting is the 'quality' of what's done. I find myself constantly re-washing dishes as they aren't clean after he's washed them the night before.

I think the finances do reflect the relationship. He really chooses what he wants to be involved in and what he doesn't. The childcare defaults to me, but he'll choose to do some when it suits. e.g. I'd have to arrange 'cover' to go to the hairdressers where as he will just book his appointment.

I think the conversation about relate would be worthwhile. His complaint last week was that, as we'd started along that road for problems with our sex life, why hadn't that been the focus of the session. He said he's not unhappy, just wishes I'd stop moaning. She validated his being laid back and the funny one as good things to bring to the relationship (which I can see) but he now uses that as a reason to get out of stuff.

I guess one of my worries is that if I were to come out and say I'm seriously thinking of leaving, that will create a dreadful situation at home during DD's gcse's. If I wait until after then I can guarantee peace for the next few months. I do see that I need to be committed to the relate sessions though for them to be productive.
If we did have a chat, and weren't on the same page, what then? Do we carry on with the sessions?

Scarlotti - didn't want to leave your post unanswered, but afraid I have to do some work now (procrastinating) but will be back on later with my thoughts.

Scarlotti - two points spring to mind reading your thread. Just because he's not a bad man doesn't mean that you have to put up with what obviously doesn't agree with you. The thing is, that it's not just one thing that doesn't agree with you, it's a whole raft of things.

The other thought was that I think it would be a good idea to carry on with the Relate sessions even if your H is not on the same page as you, because it would give you further insight into you and what you want.

lemony - I agree with the relate point, was thinking it would be good to work through stuff as am/will learn a lot about myself.
The most telling thing at the moment is that I dream of living alone with my dc's, without a man in sight!!

Sorry wasn't able to come back last night scarlotti and won't be around much today.

I think you should perservere with the Relate sessions absolutely, but do think that you'll get the best out of them as a couple if you're honest there - and with eachother in between sessions. At the moment, he seems to think the point of these sessions is to revamp your sex life, whereas your objectives are multi-faceted. His are rooted in the marriage continuing and yours are in the marriage ending.

The problem with controlling children like your H is that they tend not to believe threats - and so all the frustrations you've expressed over the years have resulted in no particular penalty for your H. In fact, the only one that causes him any real problem is the lack of sex, hence he's at Relate to try to stop that particular "punishment".

I think it would be worth writing down (even here) what you are wanting to get out of these sessions. Ask him to do the same.

I do think he needs to know how imperilled the marriage is - and that his best chance of saving it is to continue with the counselling. There's a sense that if he really knew this time what was at stake, he might confront at last some of his behaviours.

The counsellor will want to be as even-handed as possible and will not want your H to feel "got at" and so she is reinforcing some of his qualities and seeing the "good" side of his faults. However, given the advice you've had from other posters, be very careful that the counsellor sees what came first - his lack of personal responsibility or your critical behaviour.

It is terribly important that you discuss the notion that he is displaying controlling manipulative behaviours and that your behaviour is borne out of sheer frustration. The proof is in the pudding. You don't want this to continue - whereas he does. That's because apart from the sex, he is the over-benefited one in the relationship.

However, if he did but know (and this is where the counsellor can really help) it is a horrible life for him that could be so much better. He's probably got used to being treated with a lack of respect and even contempt. He possibly doesn't even question it. He needs to see a life where because responsibility is taken equally for everything - and love and respect run like a golden thread throughout the marriage - his life could be so much better.

It would be perhaps a good idea for a session to discuss what his ideal marriage would look like - and for you to do the same. You have both perhaps got to the point where you don't think that's possible with eachother, but in truth, unless there is a real commitment on both sides to try to change the scripts you have been enacting, you will never know what that good marriage could be.

I suspect many couples enter Relate with different agendas, but they normally have some idea that this is the case. My discomfort in a way is that your H doesn't seem to know your agenda, whereas his is pretty open.

WWIFN, no rush to respond, am grateful that you do.

You make good points above and I had never thought that his life could also be better if things were more equal. Guess I just see that he has the easy street at the moment as I'm doing the most stuff, but as you say mutual respect would be so much better for both of us.

I will talk to him about what we both want to get out of the sessions and suggest that we think about what a good marriage would be. As you say, he should be aware of exactly how I'm feeling and I guess I will have to bear the consequence of that should there be one.

I will be mentioning how his behaviour has changed slightly towards me this week in the next session, as I have had many more digs at my 'anal' behaviour as he calls it. This is due to the discussions we had last week at the session about high standards. Comments have been made in front of others too so it's almost as if he's upped the anti to criticise. Not entirely sure why other than he now knows not everything in the garden is rosy.

Well we did the relate homework last night and as I suspected, it shows I'm much more responsible for things here than him. No surprise though on either part that is the case. Prompted a little discussion but not a huge amount, and to be honest it was more a 'let's get this done' scenario. Will be interesting to see what the relate woman does with it and whether she feels that it was just a bit of lip service.

Scarlotti - this is what worries me somewhat - that he will take the counsellor's wish not to alienate him completely as an affirmation of his controlling behaviours and her words as a rebuke against your "anal" behaviour. For this to work, he really has got to grow up and stop trying to score points about who is "right".

It would be really revealing to hear what he thinks should happen in an equal marriage. I suspect he's got himself into a rut of thinking that this is how all marriages are - and in his childish, emotionally retarded mindset, he might believe a warped script that you are nagging and controlling, he tries hard but can never do anything right, that you avoid sex and affection and he therefore paints himself as a victim, but reasons that most marriages are like this anyway...

He would be truly shocked if he saw a different more equal marriage at close quarters. And saw how much happier both parties are for treating the marriage as a joint enterprise, where love and respect underpinned the couple's every action.

It comes down to this, doesn't it? You don't want a marriage like this - you want a marriage with an equal partner who shares responsibility. You don't want to nag or control - and you don't want to parent an adult.

Since he focuses so much on sex, it might shock him to realise what an almightly turn off it is to have sex with a childish man - and that your sexual needs are being unmet too. I imagine he might be locked in some other warped script about you not being a sexual being any longer - the realisation that he hasn't met your sexual needs for some time could be a very sobering wake-up call. At this point, your relationship really needs this level of honesty Scarlotti.

WWIFN, thanks for your response. It will be interesting to see what Tuesday's session brings I think. I agree with all that you've said above, and have said to him before that I am not, nor wish to be, his mother and that it is a turn off. I do not want a marriage like this and do not want to live with someone who acts like a child. I tell him frequently that he is like a teenager.
I'm not sure if he doesn't believe me, or just dismisses what I say - after all, I am still here so I guess maybe he thinks that what I day doesn't matter.

Maybe I should write him a letter or do you think that if I say the same things again but in the session that they might sink in this time?

say, not day,obviously

I was wondering what the best use of the next session we have would be? Presumably the counsellor will ask if we've done the homework and that might be the starting point? If she asks us if there's anything we want to speak about, would it be wise to say nothing and see how he wants the session to go, given that I 'led' the last one as I was the one complaining?
I know he would feel happier if we moved onto the sex issues, as he said that after the last one. The counsellor said the programme looks at individual histories first, on an individual basis, before moving on to solving problems. I wondered if that might help as then we would both, individually, have a chance to speak our minds openly.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that honest and open is the way forward, I'm worried that if I say 'I'm thinking of leaving, and I've been unfulfilled sexually for a while' he will react really badly and there will be conflict in the home whilst dd is doing her gcse's.
I have no problem with this situation happening once she's done her exams - not sure I could forgive myself if I did something to mess them up for the sake of waiting a few months. Is this right/rational?
I suspect from the conversations I've had with dd that she is aware of the issues going on.

Scarlotti I hope all goes well today. It's probably too late to say this but I would let him bring up the issue of sex because it is a symptom of the problems you're experiencing so leads very easily into the not wanting to mother him and be his lover debate.

Ninjcat says what I was about to.

Sorry, Scarlotti, I've only just seen this.

You're doing all the right things. Waiting until the Summer won't be the worst thing in the world - you've waited this long.

I'm sure dd is aware, but she's not having to face practical and emotional upheaval at the moment. That can come later.

And until then you've got a few months grace to work out if this is definitely what you want.

Keep going to counselling. Keep working on it, and if by August nothing's different that's probably a good indication that there's nothing oyu can do.

It takes two to make a marriage. You can't fix it if he's happy to stay the same.

I do think you need to be straight with him about how serious this is; that you want to keep trying but that if nothing comes of it you cannot continue to be in this relationship.

Explain that although you would prefer to go forwards together, you are not happy with things. He's got to have the chance to give it his all (something tells me that without a real consequence he won't change).

Sorry you're still going through this.

Things aren't good at this end either.

x

Thanks for your posts ladies.
Interestingly, I went on my own today. Triggered by DD being unable to babysit as she had a school thing. Turned out to be really helpful as I was able to tell the counsellor just how at the end of my tether I am. We talked all through why he might be the way he is, and it would seem as though it's all down to his self esteem and self respect. His fear of doing anything new/messing up keeps his comfort zone so small that he's unable to do much.
Whilst I can understand that, and even empathise how tough it must be if that's the case, unless he makes efforts to change this then it will be the end of the road for us.
He will go alone next week and it will be interesting to see what happens there. Then I guess we go together again the week after. I will say that week just how serious things are so that it's clear that this is last chance saloon.

Crunch, so sorry to hear things aren't good for you. Am always here for support/general man bashing/ex pat longings. Happy to chat via mn or via email if that's easier.

Ninja, thanks for taking the time to come over and post, especially as you're feeling blue yourself at the moment.

Scarlotti I've no idea why, but I didn't see your follow up post before this one.

Thanks for the update about tonight's session. Have you and he talked about what happened there?

Your counsellor could be on to something about his comfort zone (e.g. it's pretty unusual for a man of his age not to have learnt how to drive) and if so, that's going to be a tough one to crack.

I well understand your dilemma about being honest and the effect that might have on DD, but it might help me understand more if you explain how you think he would react to that news? If you believe that your DD will suffer at his hands, I'd understand your rationale. However, like other posters, I just don't think this man knows how imperilled his relationship really is. Maybe if he did, you would start to see those changes - and that might produce a happier atmosphere at home as your DD prepares for her exams. Only you know what he's like though...

I also want to reassure you that you're doing the right thing. I heard today about a couple who parted last week and their daughter, who is about to take her GCSEs too, is devastated. You can imagine the grapevine...lots of tut-tutting about the terrible timing, couldn't they have waited etc. I don't think you'll regret sticking this out.

WWIFN - not to worry about not spotting the post, I'm finding it helpful just to write things down. At the very least, it helps my addled brain remember!

We did talk about what the counsellor suggested could be the issue and I said about her musings on his comfort zone etc. He didn't really respond although I have texted him this morning asking what he thought. He said that he thought she had got him very well on some points.
He has a huge fear of change/new things and this has been so for most of his life, so I agree that this may well be too difficult to change.

I think my worry about saying anything a) stems from my experience with my step dad when I was 11 and b)is more if I were to tell him it's over. Having had time to take stock and start to talk it through, I can see that if I say that we're at breaking point, as opposed to 'that's it' that should be ok as we're still trying to fix things.
My step dad went off the rails when my Mum told him that was it, and I suspect when I talk to her that her advice is (naturally) coloured by her own experience.
I don't know how he would react if I actually said I want out. He will be devastated to have to leave the dc's and I suspect might well react angrily initially. He tends to go on the attack when he feels attacked, verbally as opposed to anything else, so I'm presuming this would be the same. It would then move to being very sad I suspect and promising all sorts to try and change things.
I also am not sure if he would still arrange to see dd (his step daughter) so I'm conscious that she might end up feeling hurt and abandoned or let down.

I need to say how bad things are, you are all right, and I think if I say it in the way of 'this is how close we are to splitting' then that gives a chance for him to seriously change and also keeps things on a relatively even keel whilst dd is doing her exams.
DS starts school in september so I'll have to take that into account too. Guess it's never a good time though if the decision to part comes to be.

I know if we did separate that things could then well become nasty as we would have to talk money. I put all the equity into this house and we had a trust deed drawn up to protect my investment. I suspect he will assume that he would get half the house if we split, but my understanding is that wouldn't be the case. He is bitter that he left a previous relationship 'empty handed' so I am sure that will cause problems should we get to that point.