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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I totally spineless (& naive)??

52 replies

ladylovestocook · 16/03/2010 16:37

Hi all, I'm new to the site but came on as I hoped to gain some insight ? forgive me if I go on a bit? my DH and I have been 2together for 16 years with 2 young DD (we are 47); it?s been plodding for a couple of years; he has had regular but now sporadic drink/dependency/reliability issues over the years which makes me controlling/nagging in return. That all said I love him, plain & simple, but since January I have been really depressed making me probably not easy to live with (I?m on medication now); he in turn goes out, gets wasted and turns his phone off?. I have dared to wonder how it would be easier without wondering where he was and in the meantime he came home last Wed. evening and said 'it wasn't working' and he'd like a trial separation out of the blue. It?s hit me like a train?can?t eat, sleep, concentrate? He?s agreed to stay at home and try and give it one last shot, along with counselling (we?ve done it once before 3 years ago). He has admitted to OW, says he?s seen her a few times but no sex (?!) but it?s a by-product of our stale relationship and he wouldn?t be leaving because of her. Our intimacy has been rubbish over the last year ? I agreed to therapy to explore why. I also work full time and pretty much do everything at home, all the finances, his banking etc etc. He pretty much just needs to get up and go to work?
Am I totally spineless to let him stay and naïve to believe there is a chance I can turn this around?

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 17/03/2010 18:38

I lurk on the NPD thread, autumn and I respect your space on there

but many, many times I have wanted to steam on there and say "what the fuck, are you doing, woman !!"

but I stop, because that is a support thread and not my place to throw my strident bollockings around

and although you shouldn't have to explain yourself to anybody, I do see you gaining a little strength over time

but I also see you doing a lot of intellectual rationalising and going around in circles...

however, I have told you this before and so will shut up now, you don't need another bully in your life

Lemonylemon · 18/03/2010 10:39

"but I also see you doing a lot of intellectual rationalising and going around in circles..."

Autumn This is why I have dropped off the Stately Homes thread and the NPD thread. I've got past the stage of doing this and have read loads of self-help books, talked to people, done a lot of soul searching etc. and am now at the stage that I'm quite a strong person and I don't want to bully you either and as AF says - they are support threads!

HappyWoman · 18/03/2010 12:15

I could have written your threat pretty much 4 years ago to the day!!!!
My was having an affair - but our marriage was in an awful place - was it because of the affair or was the affair becuase of our marriage??

Anyway like you it really hit me and i searched my heart and found actually i had a lot of faults and wanted to 'save' my marriage. Do you think you may want to do that?

I did a lot of work on myself - at that time i didnt know about the affair - h swore there was no-one else.

I felt i didnt want my marriage to fail unless i had done everything i could - i wanted to look back knowing it was not my fault.

The result was it made my h see the 'real' me again - of course the affair was still going on and so i was still 'losing' but it made him think differently about me - all his 'excuses' could no longer be justified.
We did split for a while and he followed the usual 'affair script' - which is why other posters are doubting his honesty wrt to not sleeping with ow.

With this much outside stuff going on it may not be up to you to make the choice of whether you marriage is going to work.

My advice would be to think about you now and work on you. Also fear the worst and get finacial things sorted and do go and see a solicitor.
Seeing a solicitor was one of the best things i could have done and i think saved my marriage. It took away a lot of the fears i had.

We have made another go it now and in many ways it was the wake up call I needed. I am so much happier than i have been for years.

You will be ok - just think about you now.

ladylovestocook · 18/03/2010 13:40

Hello thanks for all the posts. Happy Woman your msg really resonates - I've been doing a lot of soul-searching since I first posted and realised I really do want my marriage to work but even if it does fail, I did everything to prevent it doing so and therefore wasn't my doing.

We had a long talk last night and he is still at home. We accepted his chaotic behaviour brings out my controlling side - hopefully conselling one final time will help us work through that. He says he's 'lost the plot' since January (hence unpaid parking fines building etc), hated his job for a while and I am never supportive of anything he does. The affair was because of our lacklustre/almost sexless marriage. He went to Drs this morning and was put on higher dose of Prozac so I believe he is trying.

I don't think it's all his fault as I know deep down I need to work on my flaws too. I -will- work on building a plan B for peace of mind & security - all I have done for years is either kids/home or kids/home/work and need to get out more. Hopefully he will also came to see the real 'me' he fell head over heels for 16 years ago.

I might be a gullible old fool but fingers crossed... now - for that solicitor's number 'just in case'... x

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 18/03/2010 13:54

omg
I remember my h saying he had lost the plot!

yes make sure you find a good solicitor that you feel you can trust - and keep an eye on all money - you dont want to trust too much just yet and think of it as an insurance policy for you.

Its good that he has been to the GP - at least he is willing to face up to things - but please dont let him make himself the victim.
You dont have to react to problems the way he has - that is something we have both learnt.

A book i found useful is 'The rules of Life' - it is very simple and reads a bit like a game - but it really did work for me and even now i found i am trying to live by the rules.

See this as a chance to not only save your marriage but get the one you want. Make sure you get your needs met too.

Some things that helped us was to make time for dates again and also put some time aside to talk about us (try to make a set time and not make it too long).

I can honestly say i have a better marriage now than i think i would have had if he not had the affair.

We have holidays alone and do lots more together. I also feel i am able to be my own person now and i get to do what i want more now too.

Stay possitive if you can.

ladylovestocook · 18/03/2010 14:37

HW (& all) thanks for support. I have just ordered the book you suggested at Amazon. The financial side is scary as we appear to be ok but we have no savings or pension, but do have equity in the house (joint mortgage). I have a job (albeit dull) but as a PA not on massive salary and I've been saving mine separately for the last 3 months for my cookery school fund. His salary is OK but we just about break even without mine - I don't know how he thinks he could afford to fund a separate life and still support us. I suppose if it came to out, we'd need to sell the house... but I won't go there for now.

I'm really hoping to still do my cookery course but rather than quit my job to do it, try and negotiate with employers to work and squeeze in course as well (it's 18 hours per week but only 3 months) Better to focus on something you have fire in your belly for

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/03/2010 14:44

Lady - you've had lots of good advice here, but can I just add that unless you are certain that he has severed his relationship with the OW - and tells you exactly what happened with her and (truthfully) why - you are fighting for a marriage with one hand tied behind your back.

You can get the marriage you want - and indeed you should - but not without really honest communication between you. In your shoes, I would want incontrovertible proof that his other relationship is over and that there is no more contact with this woman whatsoever.

I'm afraid that for what ever reason, he's decided it's not the right time to leave just yet and is just biding his time. He is also being shockingly dishonest about his sexual relationship with this woman.

Don't be passive about this - you will feel much worse.

HappyWoman · 18/03/2010 16:15

whenwill I do agree - if he wants to save the marriage he will need to do all that.

I am not saying to be passive - although it can look that way. But if you are not going to get the truth (because he is not ready to re-comit to the marriage) then at least do something for you.

It took me months to find the truth - i honestly think my h would have carried on for as long as he could - he just wasnt ready to work on his marriage (and with ow offering him exactly what he wanted - why would he).
It was not a case of me being naive or spineless either - it was taking a lot of emotional energy out of me. I had asked him and we even went to relate for a while - but unless you get PI or hard evidence you just want to believe what your h (and in fact all our friends) was telling me.

It was during this time that i searched my soul and became the person I wanted to be - not just for my h but for me.

It was still such a shock when i did eventually find out the whole truth - but i felt that i was in fact stronger to 'fight' for my marriage and also able to then demand what you are suggesting.

op - be careful with what he is telling you - he may want to shift all blame onto you now - tis a guilt thing.

GardenPath · 19/03/2010 01:21

'The Myth of Monogamy': Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People*
By David P. Barash, Judith Eve Lipton
Applying new research to sex in the animal world, esteemed scientists David P. Barash and Judith Eve Lipton dispel the notion that monogamy comes naturally. In fact, as The Myth of Monogamy reveals, biologists have discovered that for nearly every species, cheating is the rule -- for both sexes.

They paraphrase the anthropologist Margaret Mead, who once suggested that monogamy is the hardest of all human marital arrangements.
"It is also one of the rarest," they write. "In attempting to maintain a social and sexual bond consisting exclusively of one man and one woman, aspiring monogamists are going against some of the deepest-seated evolutionary inclinations with which biology has endowed most creatures, Homo sapiens included."

Keep the house - DH is obliged to allow you to keep the house/pay mortgage until the kids reach 16 or while they're in full time education. Around 25 if you can keep it up....

ItsGraceAgain · 19/03/2010 01:34

Gibbons are the only ape that is monogamous, but several monkey species form pair bonds too. Marmosets, a small, South American monkey, are another example.

People are apes.
Among the mammal kingdom as a whole, it's noted that monogamous species show little sexual dimorphism - ie, the males & females are roughly the same size. Like humans.

I highlighted a few bits in the below, for your amusement/information:-

From a discussion of the life histories of selected species of monogamous primates, carnivores, rodents and ungulates, several trends emerge. Two forms of monogamy occur, Type I, facultative, and Type II, obligate.

The selective pressures leading to these two forms of monogamy may have been different. Facultative monogamy may result when a species exists at very low densities, with males and females being so spaced that only a single member of the opposite sex is available for mating. Obligate monogamy appears to occur when a solitary female cannot rear a litter without aid from conspecifics, but the carrying capacity of the habitat is insufficient to allow more than one female to breed simultaneously within the same home range.

Within both types of monogamy, the following traits are typically seen: (1) adults show little sexual dimorphism either physically or behaviorally: (2) the adult male and female exhibit infrequent socio-sexual interactions except during the early stages of pair bond formation.

Additional trends specific to mammals exhibiting obligate monogamy are: (1) the young exhibit delayed sexual maturation in the presence of the parents, and thus only the adult pair breeds; (2) the older juveniles aid in rearing young siblings; and (3) the adult male (father) aids in the rearing of young by any or all of the following: carrying, feeding, defending, and socializing offspring.

I hate it when people use "nature" as an excuse for bad behaviour!

ItsGraceAgain · 19/03/2010 01:38
  • error: People are apes primates, which includes monkeys.
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 19/03/2010 02:19

Ladylovestocook another poster downthread mentioned a post I'd written on another thread, about mother-child romantic relationships. Here is what I said, slightly adapted for your circumstances:

"Have you ever considered that your husband is controlling? It's actually a very subtle form of controlling behaviour, but powerful in effect nevertheless. You might never have recognised him as controlling - or he himself - but it would be a good talking point at Relate.

You're describing a conflict of childish control methods and fewer that are associated with adulthood. The childish behaviours are laziness, procrastination over necessary but disliked tasks, sulkiness, disproportionate anger/irritation, refusal to engage in an adult dialogue (or engage at all), victim-focused behaviour and counter-attack. Put simply, these behaviours are about a refusal to take personal responsibility.

(Lady, in addition to the above, in your case there is also infidelity. This is yet another example of a refusal to take personal responsibility. Look at the story your H is giving you - the affair was a symptom of how unhappy you've made me....

What might be the adult response to such unhappiness? To discuss it with one's partner and express those feelings? To feel alarmed that one is developing feelings for someone else and resolve not to muddy the waters with a new love interest? This is how an adult would respond.

The child, on the other hand will do none of these things and will go on to have an affair. He will then take no responsibility whatsoever for the affair, lie about his own role in it and stick his tongue out at you and say: it's your fault, you made me do it.)

Before his affair, what has confused the issue is that you may have been enabling his behaviour by infantilising him to some extent - and so in effect, you have become his parent. Your behaviour then becomes more visibly controlling, so you complain, make repeated requests, take control of things that haven't been done, re-do tasks that have been botched, insist on discussing his faults and at its worst, treating him with contempt.

To outward appearances, it can look as though you are the more controlling of the partnership, but the reality is different.
What you're both doing is perpetuating a dance, or a script that put simply, characterises a rebellious child and an angry parent.

People who display childish controlling behaviours tend to be emotionally retarded by definition (they have never grown up or learned to express feelings in an adult way) and they lack emotional intelligence - so it can seem an uphill struggle to get them to engage in the first place. A third party like a counsellor can be very powerful in situations like this.

If you have become that angry parent, I'm sure it's a role that you didn't want in a marriage of two adults and you may see it as the only response possible if anything was to get done - I understand that. However, the counselling might also get to the root of why you chose a parental role to cope with the situation - and where that behaviour was learned."

Lady - what's needed here is for you to get tough. The disclosure of an affair is often the only calalyst that produces lasting change, but in your situation, we've got a very poor dynamic going on. Instead of it being you wondering whether this is actually the last straw and treating it as an opportunity to finally get your H to grow up, take responsibility and become an equal partner, you've got him reluctantly agreeing to "try again", foisting blame on to you and being wholly disingenuous about his affair. This dynamic needs to stop right now if there is any hope for your marriage.

In your individual case, I think your H actually needs a short sharp shock. I would be telling him that you have now realised the dynamic in your relationship and will not collude with it any longer. It doesn't matter what he admits to, you know he has been physically unfaithful and actually, this might be the last straw in a lifetime of childish control freakery.

If he wants his marriage, he must do the following: End the other relationship in your presence. Become an open book. Tell you the truth about it all. Go to counselling on his own and at the ripe old age of 47, learn how to become a man, an emotionally intelligent one at that. Take equal responsibility for everything in your relationship and in your lives.

Those are your conditions - and there is no room for manoeuvre.

Falter now Lady - and you will be mothering this man for years to come, but I will predict your future. He will continue to be unfaithful, either with this woman or with others - and one day, when he finds a woman who will mother him as well as you, he will leave you. He will also feel contemptuous that you sat back and let it happen.

Take control now - and you'll either get a vastly improved version of your H or you'll have a peaceful existence mothering only those who need it (your DCs) with enough time on your side eventually to meet an emotionally intelligent man who wants an equal partner, not a mother.

HappyWoman · 19/03/2010 06:33

Whenwill that was a fantastic post,
So much it rings true with my situation.
I knew i had taken on the mother role and my h was more than happy to be the naughty child,

In fact i think it is a trait that a lot of woman find attractive.
Our counsellor helped me see that and i am now much better at spotting when it is happening.

We still do have blips but i am getting better at being a woman in my own right not just his mother.

One question though - do you think in the future he could revert back to that child and another woman could still be a risk?

I dont think it will happen just yet but i just wondered.

Anniegetyourgun · 19/03/2010 08:26

"a conflict of childish control methods and fewer that are associated with adulthood. The childish behaviours are laziness, procrastination over necessary but disliked tasks, sulkiness, disproportionate anger/irritation, refusal to engage in an adult dialogue (or engage at all), victim-focused behaviour and counter-attack. Put simply, these behaviours are about a refusal to take personal responsibility"

You have just described my marriage. Gosh. That is exactly what XH did and, I'm sure, exactly why he did it.

I recognise that I did engage in some of the childish behaviours myself, probably because I didn't have the energy to play the parent role all the time (as I was already doing that for 4 DCs and far too many pets). But at least I was aware of it and tried to school myself into better ways. That's the difference between a personality flaw and a personality disorder.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 19/03/2010 09:39

Thanks HW and Annie. HW - no, given all that you have said about the changes you have made - and the changes in him, you have managed to make your marriage into one of equals. So I don't think your H will go looking for another mother figure, because hopefully he has realised that what he actually wanted and needed all along was a wife.

Significantly, you also took control at the tipping point and held out for change, as a condition of the marriage continuing. You've both stopped following a script.

ladylovestocook · 19/03/2010 11:29

Whenwill what a truly inspirational post - even before I logged in this morning I was feeling much better and your words have crytallised what I know to be true. I've been his mother too long and he has long admitted to 'having a mental block' about responsibility; he needs to change, I can't do it for him.

For some reason something postive has clicked in my head and I know that I am going to be ok. I have a supportive job and will do my course somehow. I'm going to be concentrate on me and kids first and foremost - I feel empowered in a weird and wonderful way. Thanks xx

OP posts:
jayjayp · 19/03/2010 11:41

do you really want to stay in this situation?? it isnt doing you or your dc's any good maybe separation could be the right thing to do however hard it is to come to terms with right now you dont deserve to be this unhappy in your relationship if i were you i would tell him to move out so i could concentrate on looking after myself and dc from now on, from what you say sounds like he's a bit of a twat to me and you can definitely do better.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 19/03/2010 12:04

Lady glad it helped, but please don't allow your marriage to continue in any form while he is still seeing the OW. That's going to be more damaging for your mental health that you can even imagine now - and horrible for your DCs.

ladylovestocook · 19/03/2010 16:28

OMG Just as well I was feeling empowered... I got a fright when went to the loo (bloody stools - sorry for too much info) this am so called NHS Direct & they suggested Dr's today. I asked DH if possible for him to be home at 6.15pm to look after kids whilst I get checked out. He wasn't particulary impressed citing 'work drinks' but when I told him symptoms he has reluctantly agreed to come home.

I've just noticed that he has now flooded my inbox with all manner of outlook invites - football games, all night job next week and various others. He has accompanied one invite with msg 'ME GOING OUT WITH MY MATES TO ENJOY MYSELF ON MY BIRTHDAY FOR ONCE !!!!!! (How old is this man??)

I have just ignored the whole lot which clearly has bothered him as he has just called up to 'explain' them and offered a vague apology of sorts for being contentious.

I really know now that we need to separate - as long as he's here it's going to be hell. I'd rather be on my own and sane then live in limbo with a controlling game player...

OP posts:
RunningOutOfNames · 19/03/2010 16:32

Well, best of luck with bum - both of them, in fact . Hope you find the strength to separate on your terms.

Seabright · 19/03/2010 23:02

Lady - how did you get on at the docs? And what progress at home?

GardenPath · 20/03/2010 06:36

C'mon, ladylovestocook, you're only 47 - get a life! Alternatively, blimey, ladylovestocook, you're 47, hurry up and get a life! Before it's too late - I say that as a 50+ - single parent of six (though only one DS14 at home now - bliss). He is a FUCKING ARSEHOLE - forgive capitals - oh, and forgive swearing, I wouldn't except I see MN is refreshingly grown-up enough to embrace raw Anglo-Saxon in the spirit in which it is intended. Whether you love him or not is really beside the point - define love, and define love from his point of view - that ain't love - I suspect this can be interpreted as 'habit' and at our age (I'm not that much older than you) it might seem the best thing to put up with 'the devil you know'. Now there may be some currency in that, long relationship, tickling along, not particularly passionate, you're not teenagers after all, and blimey! come the menopause you might not fancy it at all, but ABSOLUTELY not when he's been putting it about with OW. No sex? Bollocks - I've only heard that one about a hundred times before!!!!) and treating you like shit. That's a whole different ball game. Get rid of him and get some self-respect. Don't be afraid of being alone - you say you do everything anyway - and being 'alone' is bloody fantastic. Do what you want, when you want and with whom you want - or not as you choose. You'll still have DD's, as I still have DS14, and if you're worried about DD's, I know single parents are the Antichrist and being dragged up by one is plumbing the depths of depravity, but none of mine sniffed lighter-fuel in spite of all my efforts and all have degrees and good jobs and have been told they're all going to take turns looking after me when I'm OLD - that's not an acronym that just spelled 'old', short for oldER.

ladylovestocook · 23/03/2010 14:22

Hi just an update to vent/rant really?. Doctor suggested that due to stress & not eating I have really aggressive bout of IBS ? thankfully pills have taken care of things to an extent.

Still living in house with DH in what I can only describe as ?limbo?. We had a long talk (again) on Friday evening (admittedly had a few drinks beforehand) and it became clear that he feels such HUGE resentment towards me for what he perceives as my ?stopping him going out? over the years. i.e. the breakdown in our relationship is virtually all my fault.

This is total bullshit as he has always gone out, I just hated (and ranted about) the way he got wasted on booze/coke and never let on where he was e.g. Turned up pissed & confrontational to the hospital when our DD was in for a few days when she was only 4 weeks old (10 now) - one in a very long list of horrible situations over the years.
Mind you on a few occasions I have slapped him when he has staggered in which doesn?t make me any better and I?m ashamed of that.

He said he is finished with OW but I suggested to him that he move out as I wasn?t certain he was telling the truth. I think my slight nod to backbone surprised him and he said it was definitely over, he was very sorry for the hurt etc. etc. he wanted things to work out and he loved me. The weekend went on to be vaguely ?normal-ish?. I took DD1 out and he did DIY and alluded to painting bathroom & finally sorting out his expense claims (neither of which got done) ? I even managed to cook a roast dinner.

He went to work yesterday and when I got home myself, you could have cut atmosphere with a knife as he wanted to go out but as I?d already arranged cinema with a friend ages ago he had to babysit as we couldn?t find anyone to step in.

I know by posting again I?m probably setting myself up for a good kicking here on MN (& I know I deserve it) ? the signs are all there ? I do feel deep down he has checked out emotionally (at least for now). I said I wouldn?t stand in his way; we would be fine if he went and yet he is still there yanking my chain emotionally. I am booked to see a solicitor tomorrow at least so will have clearer picture of practical things.
I have cut and pasted all your helpful advice into a notebook to remind myself that there is more to life that being a doormat. Sorry to ramble but just needed to get it out?

OP posts:
HighStreetBabe · 23/03/2010 22:10

LLTC I've only just come across this thread and you sound so down. What are you waiting for? Are you hoping that he's going to force the issue by either going or undergoing a complete transformation? It doesn't sound like he's going to do either. He won't go, because it's easier being with you - you do everything for him and he's acting like a child. You've been together a long time and it sounds like he's been like this for a while so he won't change.

Go and see the solicitor tomorrow and look into all the practical side of things. Have you talked to friends in RL? You'll be surprised how much support people will give in times like this.

HappyWoman · 24/03/2010 06:59

so he resents you then says he is sorry for all the hurt he has casused and then has a strop becuase you go out????

Dont let him do this to you - he just wants the easy life - its not about what he wants - its about what you want now.

And actually does it matter if he 'blames' you - as long as you know the truth that is all that matters. He will make up his own version of the truth anyway.

Hope the solicitor goes well.