advice needed

[notabused]

ok.. deep breath.. I need advice please.

Things now do good with DH for a while. Things are stressful in our lives - unemployment, money worries - and we argue.

We have two DC at infant/ junior school.

Everyone who knows DH would say he is an especially gentle, placid, easy going man. They would say he is determined too when they really know him and its about something he really wants. I don't know what they would say about me, but not those things.

He loves our children and I think he loves me.

This evening things came to a head.

There is a small level of violence but mostly he is in denial over it. The worst thing is what he does to the children. he tells them horrible things to hurt me through them. "I am so sorry that you've got such a terrible Mummy" is a common example. Tonight it was "fat cow", "bitch", "she doesn't love me" (I do) and "she makes me want to commit suicide" amongst other things I can't remember now. They also were there when he told me that he was going to take the children away from me. (they weren't even in the room where we were arguing - he called them in and then said it).

I hate it when he hurts the children like this but he has done it several times now, so its not a one-off accident.

Afterwards he is in denial .. he thinks the children have put like or no weight by what they heard, saw and had said to them. But DC1 was crying and I found both of them hiding under the covers in their beds immediately afterwards. I was just starting to try to help them when DH came in. I left him to it because if he was willing, a retraction would be more effective from him than me saying "Daddy didn't mean it". I think he did try to make it better but I know that he doesn't think it was especially harmful in the first place "unless put ideas in their heads".

WE've hardly spoken since. I went to bed at the same time as the DC, which is partly why i am awake now.

I really do not know what to do or where to turn for help. If I tell people we know in RL, it will be the end of our marriage. But my DC mean the world to me and I need to protect them. We've given them good lives so far and they are well brought up... good manners, doing well at school, nice young children. Money worries are a new thing in the family (our business failed in the recession) so we still live well although that is about to end as our savings are nearly gone. Why does DH have to try to do this to them?? He loves them too. They are the one truly good thing we have left!

I'm rambling. Please tell me.. is there a help line number I can call? Someone who can give me advice about what to do?

btw his behaviour is not that of someone who loves you or loves his children. it isnt love - it is control and nastiness. love means respect - he has zero respect for you.

why does he do it? only he knows...but is down to you to decide you wont put up with it any more. not for you, not for your dcs.

Honey, it's really hard when you're so confused, is there anywhere you could go that would feel safe to you, family, friends, etc? You sound so frightened.

Thank you for all your replies. None of you know me and you all took time out to offer advice. I really appreciate it.

I couldn't post yesterday because there was just no opportunity.

I'm a lot more together than I was that first night and I've done a lot of thinking. I also looked at the women's aid website.

Maybe I am scared. Scared of it happening again. Scared of breaking a marriage that can be saved. Scared of causing my children lots of pain. Scared of coping financially on my own - although I am also scared of coping financially whether I stay with him or not, but it will be even harder alone.

DH has been trying to put it behind us. He doesn't mention what he did to me or the DC unless I mention it and mostly I spent yesterday avoiding him so there weren't many times we spoke anyway. When we do speak, he tries to avoid discussing what he did to the children by talking about my behaviour or by bringing up things that happened years ago by way of distraction (i never abused the DC if that's what you are thinking - its my depression and stuff like that he talks about). When I insist that we talk about the DC, he tries to say I forced him to do the things he did - hands round my throat and using the DC as soft targets to hurt me.
I know this is not true and that I cannot be responsible for his behaviour, so I cannot guarantee that i won't make him feel like doing those things again.

The other thing he is saying that there is no long term damage with the DC. In my view this is maybe true, maybe not but there will be if he keeps doing it (and this is not the first time). Personally I believe it will happen again unless he faces up to his behaviour and its consequences and undertakes to change it. Right now, we are not there and I cannot make him see this. We need counselling.

I've asked him to come with me to counselling and he has agreed but I know that he is hoping that it will all blow over and I won't book any sessions, or that they will be cancelled before they take place.

I will book sessions though and if he doesn't go then I will leave with the children. I will go to my mother's (she lives 100s of miles away so its a big step). Then we will see if that is enough to shock him into doing something about it.

I hope to God that he isn't reading this though because I want to give him a chance to do something about it before I force his hand as I think the sessions would be more beneficial if he entered into them because he wanted to change.

As to going somewhere without him. I can't: we have no money and I have no where to go except to my mother's. We have a car and I can drive but all my friends are our friends and as i said in my first post, i am not even sure that they would believe me.. it seems so out of character.

Just take little steps...in your head first.

Start reading, inform yourself about these men and their patterns of behaviour. Go to the library and read Lundy Bancroft, Read the Freedom programme....whatever you can find.

The idea of leaving is just too much at the moment. I know, when I was first offered a place in a refuge last year I couldn't compute the words.

You need to free your soul and your spirit first. No one knows what's happening in your mind....only you. That's where you can begin to set yourself free. Take your time and build your strength, courage and confidence.

Come here a lot. The women here are truly amazing, and you are one of them.

Counselling won't help him, unless the counsellor is experienced with abuse. A Relate counsellor will get you both to admit things and ask what he wants etc. This won't help. He'll twist your words and punish you later, especially if he feels embarrased. By going to counselling with him you're putting yourself in danger. This "man" is showing signs of being a typical abuser, especially talking about things you've done etc.
If you can, read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.

Agree with junglist

Joint counselling is contra-indicated where domestic abuse is a factor

You will not be able to speak honestly for fear of the consequences once he gets you home

< chills up spine emoticon >

This man is an abuser, a bully and needs to be left.

Your children do not deserve to see this kind of experience and it is one of those times when you need to decide what you want more - to be with him (do you love him?) or to have your children live in a home where they do not have to feel scared about what daddy is going to do to mummy next.

Things will get worse when he ses you will continue to put up with it.

Make today your day you start to free your children and yourself of a terrible home life.

Notabused..

I know you don't want to hear this but you must get out and get out quickly.

Counselling will not sort this situation out. You need to show him you mean business about getting help and leave him while he also seeks help on his own for his OWN issues.

This will take a long time and won't be solved in a few counselling sessions. If he really does love and respect you he will do this.

If you can't do this for yourself do it for your children. They are being abused and you are essentially facilitating it now because you are not taking them away from this volatile situation.

If you refuse to listen and stay, you are party to the abuse of your child.

Forget the counselling. It will make things worse. He won't be honest and he will use your own words and emotions against you.

Just leave. You know you have to. Just because your children do not have bruises does not mean that they are not being horribly abused. They are, you just can't see the damage. I promise you that this is causing them long term damage. When they grow up they will remember all of this and what you did or did not do to protect them.

Any love that he has for you and your children is totally dwarfed by his need to control you.

This abuse is about control. He feels weak and inadequate and he needs to bring you down to size. He can control you by standing there calling the children to come and be abused and watching the fear and hurt on your face.

He knows his behaviour is wrong - why else would he mention Women's Aid?

You know what you have to do. Every day you delay it is a day when you are collaborating in the abuse.

I am sorry to be so harsh but that is how YOU must look at it. Don't normalise it, don't deny it, don't hope in vain that it will stop, don't pretend to yourself that it isn't as harmful as you know it is; face it head on and protect your children from their abusive father.

Agree with all, but I understand that this has to happen in your time, but don't imagine that if you leave it, it will get better. Counselling in NOT going to help you. If he had any motivation to change he would already have contacted an abusers programme and signed up. Your only power in this situation is saying 'enough' and getting out, or getting him out. He has not taken any responsibility for anything and tried to dump it on you- a typical pattern of behaviour.

You have reached out to us on Mumsnet and that is brilliant, don't go away now, but please tallk to people in your life too. Tell your mother, tell your friends, kill the secrecy, but don't put yourself in danger. Talk to Womens Aid about safety planning.

Be strong and I know I can say that all our thoughts are with you and your children.

OP, don't be frightened off away from this thread

come back, tell us how you are

there are women who have been through this, and come out the other side

it will have been a long, hard realisation for them too...that they were living with an abuser

they will understand how difficult it can be to face up to the truth...you are not unique and sadly, your situation is not that uncommon

it just feels like that, because you are ashamed and guilty. You must not feel like that...it will keep you in a bad relationship

All that you write are words of an abused woman within an abusive relationship.

Counselling for your own self would help you but no counsellor will want to counsel you together because of the ongoing emotional and physical abuse within your relationship. He will use the counsellor to control you further; abuse is all about power and control.

He would never go to any form of counselling anyway.

No-one benefits from being in an abusive relationship. Remember that too.

What are you both teaching your children about relationships here?. You are both imparting damaging lessons to these young children.

If you were to stay you run the risk of your children being emotionally harmed by this man, damage that will take years to fix if it ever was fixable. You do not want them as adults to act as their Dad is doing now to you. You do not want your children as adults to also accuse you of putting him before them as children. That could well happen too if you were to remain with him, they certainly won't thank you for staying with him.

I think people should be taking into account that OP and her H are going through very difficult times - failed business and financial problems.

Notabused - my DH has done a similar thing with the hands round the throat - about 6 months ago - and once before that. The second time I called the police, and they stuck him in a cell for several hours. He knows if he does anything like that again, I will call them and get him charged. The police were brilliant about it - and encouraged us to sort things out.

I am not condoning staying with an abusive man. But it is extreme to suggest OP leaves immeadiately in my view.

I would probably issue ultimatums about him involving the children - does he not care about their peace of mind? Also, you need rules about no name calling. We now have this in our house, and a no shouting rule too. I am not excusing my dh here btw... just not a saint myself either.

op says 'he's done it several times now so its not a one off...'

thats the shouty/name calling in front of dc's ...how many time til its not acceptable then?

mitford...so you have strangled your dh too ?

it is a fucked-up world you live in if you think you can "move on" from a man putting his hands around your neck

so the police put him off...for a while

good luck with that

Of course, it is unacceptable now. I just feel that shock treatment might work with this bloke eg call the police or send him packing for the weekend.

shock treatment and packing him away for the weekend (nice break for him) would not work for an abusive man.

he needs to want to change....but he doesnt even recognise that his actions are wrong. that sets off HUGE alarm bells for me as this was main reason courts and cafcass have banned father of my children from ANY access!!

not recognising his behaviour is wrong is a big problem

Oh judge away AnyFucker

ah yes, ok, mitford

your first post seemed to be verging on excusing the actions of an abuser, and brushing his actions under the carpet

my apologies if that was not your intent

I stand by my comment of "good luck with that one" though...

Stress doesn't make a man violent. Lots of men get stressed and don't abuse their partners. Hands around the throat is a sign of extreme dangerousness. It's a predictor of murder more so than slaps and kicks.
OP call Womens Aid

mitford the police encouraged you to work things out because there's still an attitude of sweeping DV under the carpet. Their "encouragement" could have led to another dead woman if a different time and place. That's too inappropriate for words

even if stress did make a man behave like this there is no possibility of him being rehabilitated while he remains in the family home. The worst thing about this whole scenario is that he does not believe he is doing any harm.

mitford, yes, I am judging, tbh

somebody has to

ThreeBlondeBoys, I agree if he cannot recognise or take responsibility for his destructive behaviour, then that is a serious red flag. I also reread the op's latest post, and realise that he is blaming her for his actions.

junglist1, the police took it very seriously and wanted to charge him etc. Maybe that is not true everywhere. I didn't know about the hands round throat thing - could you point me to the evidence?

Anyfucker - you are obviously a supporter for the orthodoxy of zero tolerance to dv, and I respect that.