A question for Dittany

[roseability]

Sorry to target you personally but I have noticed your name on a few threads of interest and you seem to know your stuff

Basically I am trying to stir up an interest in feminism and feminist thinking/discussion in my bookclub. I am tired of the usual 'chic lit' that gets recommended, the type that revolves around romance and needing a man (yawn). I also want to stretch my brain a bit after a long period of domesticity and motherhood (I feel chained to the kitchen sink!)

I have recommended Sheila Jeffreys Beauty and Misogyny and they seem to be keen. One is an English Literature lecturer, who is widely read in feminist literature. She hasn't read this though. Do you think this is a good recommendation? Is it maybe too hard hitting for a first venture into feminism (I haven't read much myself other than stuff about the medicalization of chilbirth to allow male control of pregnant women as part of my degree).

Hope you don't mind me asking. Your comments on the thread about pornography were a defining moment for me. I had no idea, and I wept for my baby daughter and vowed I would educate myself more so that I can teach her to respect herself and never be controlled by men.

Just read the thread and realize that I've come too late to the party - sorry!

I second mary Daly and A Woman on the Edge of Time.

I don't think anyone reads Doris Lessing any more, but she's worth a look too.

is this for real?

Roseability: sorry if you thought I was being condescending, I didn't mean to be, was just offering basically a back-up suggestion if your book group turned out to be not keen on the more intense non-fiction books.

No I didn't think you were being condescending SGB! Gosh I am sorry if my post came across that way.

roseability has your interest been sparked off by the Women - Libbers programme which was on earlier this week?

There is a thread about it in Telly Addicts.

If you haven't already seen it then I recommend you get on iplayer. There are another 2 to go in the series.

Watching the program has been a massive massive wake up call to me. Why have I never investigated feminism? I feel angry and ashamed.

There are some interesting links from the BBC4 webpage and some archive footage. I've decided to look into Feminism and to "activate" myself so this thread has come at just the right time for me.

I will have a look at some of the books suggested.

Following a discussion with a friend in which we both shared some recent sexist remarks we had heard I found this brilliant blog called Stop Sexist Remarks

I have been taking sexist remarks for granted and thinking - oh it's just a joke - well no more - it's time to start challenging these attitudes girls!

I am going to be thinking through some of the strategies there and trying to put them to use.

Please can you link to dittany's post on pornography - the one which made you think.

Finally - do we need a Feminism board on MN?

Oh look there is another thread in non-fiction books along the same lines!

I didn't manage to link the thread, but it was first posted under the title "Porn" by Bubbles01 on 22 February, 2010. You can find it if you click Advanced Search.

Fiction: Can't go wrong with the Women's Room, I don't think. Or there's Sheri S Tepper's Gate To Women's Country, if you like sci-fi. Margaret Atwood is brilliant too - Handmaid's Tale is scarily relevant still, given the attack on reproductive rights that's going on here and the US (here = Australia, don't know if it's in the UK too).

Non Fiction: I found the Beauty Myth very accessible (read it when I was 13) for beauty industry/expectations of women stuff. I also loved Misconceptions, also Naomi Wolf, although I know not everyone does. It talks a lot about how women get marginalised domestically and in their careers after children.

The Second Shift, by Arlie Russell Hochschild, is great reading - she studies a variety of families WRT their domestic roles and how they divide chores, and found that even self-professed liberal/egalitarian men tend to consider domestic work as women's work. Really accessible.

Second Dittany on Catherine MacKinnon, who I think is excellent.

Lastly, a History of the Wife by Marilyn Yalom is excellent. Not exactly a 'feminism 101' reader, per se, but a really good informative book about women's roles in history, and an excellent rebuttal to the 'marriage has always been thus' arguments.

What a great thread, thank you for starting it.

This is a brilliant thread. Can anyone recommend a tome that's more about covert sexism in the workplace? I want to expose some of the - often genuinely unintentional - sexism that's promoted by my employer, but feel like I need to read something to boost my confidence and my arguments before I decide where to start.

Seconding The Feminine Mystique and the Beauty Myth.

I've just read Susan Faludi's Backlash and I really recommend it. It has a couple of chapters on the workplace.

Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own is also a great read.

This is a great thread and thanks for all the recommendations - that's me sorted tonight with amazon and my debit card.

I thought that last porn thread was pretty successful - there seemed to be more people on it saying 'porn is shite' than the usual 'boys will be boys' opinions which normally dominate on those kind of threads.

My opinion on all matters feminist has distinclty sharpened in recent years due to having a 14 year old dd, and the sheet terror I feel sometimes at what the future holds for her and young girls growing up.

I have a lot of respect for Dittany's views and think she has enlightened a lot of MNers.

Yes to Doris Lessing. Wonderful. I like her sci-fi novels best (though suspect they aren't ostensibly feminist).

I would second all recommendations for Margaret Atwood. Especially the Handmaids Tale and the Edible Woman. Toni Morrison, anything of hers at all, but Beloved is a book that will never leave me. The Poisonwood Bible, Barbara Kingsolver. Alice Walker - obviously the Colour Purple, but also the Temple of My Familiar.
I really like The Yellow Wallpaper - Charlotte Perkins Gilman (a short story written in late 19th century and just fascinating) and Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys.

For non fiction - I think the Beauty Myth is regarded as a bit feminist-lite, but it's an easy to digest introduction. I prefer Susan Faludi : Backlash, which is similar but a bit more rigorous. At the other end is Andrea Dworkin, who tends to polarise people. She was an angry writer, but people say that like it is a bad thing. She's provocative, and she did have a sense of humour about herself, that is often overlooked.

I also really like the Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture - Ariel Levy. So interesting and underlines the mums net campaign at the moment about sexualisation of preteen culture.

Then there are the classics like The Feminine Mystique - Betty Friedan and Sexual Politics - Kate Millett, both of their time, but good reading.

Wow what a great list! Will definitely check out some of these. Second nicknametaken with recommendations for Backlash by Susan Faludi. It was written in 1990 so - christ 20 years ago. But the scary thing is it's just as relevant as now - basically about how all the feminist advances in the workplace, the media etc were systematically reversed in the 1980s. It's only now I think that we're starting to come back again.

A Room of One's Own is a great read too - it was originally a lecture so very short, about 90 pages, and very well-written, all about how and why women haven't achieved great works of literature etc. More fun than it sounds.

Meanwhile there is a great video www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nvKePBrc20&feature=player_embedded of the Million Women Rise march that took place in London on Saturday. Lots of women brought their kids along - a lovely still here: www.flickr.com/photos/jessmccabe/4411460551/in/set-72157623443324403/ The one on the right broke my heart - the placard above the pushchair says "My mum dragged me here because she hopes I will beat the odds and NEVER experience any form of violence in my lifetime. And my daddy agrees".

Personally I want to see a MN banner there next year...

Handmaid's Tale is excellent. Amongst other things, it really makes you think about changing your name on getting married (I decided I never wanted to be Ofwhoever )

Sorry for crap link, pic is here: www.flickr.com/photos/jessmccabe/4411460551/in/set-72157623443324403/

Ooh if you like poetry what about Carol Ann Duffy's "The World's Wife"? Some are very funny.

Also this looks good: He's A Stud, She's a Slut, and 49 Other Double Standards Every Woman Should Know - anyone read it?

"I really like The Yellow Wallpaper - Charlotte Perkins Gilman (a short story written in late 19th century and just fascinating)"

and also:

"A Room of One's Own is a great read too - it was originally a lecture so very short, about 90 pages, and very well-written, all about how and why women haven't achieved great works of literature etc. More fun than it sounds."

I'll second those too - I was going to suggest The Yellow Wallpaper too. The OU level 2 literature course had a whole section about women writers and being marginalised etc. Some of the work I read in that was great.

Marge Piercy - Braided Lives. I loved this book when I read it in my 20s but read it again recently. Great story about 2 young women growing up in 1950s America. Even though USA set, still loads to identify with.

Fab thread. Thanks Roseability. I was surprised at how much that porn thread affected me too.

Mrs Icarus, from The World's Wife

I?m not the first or the last
to stand on a hillock,
watching the man she married
prove to the world
he?s a total, utter, absolute Grade A pillock

Start a thread about your workplace Romanarama - sure there are lots of ideas on MN if you give detail about what sort of thing you are dealing with.

Is it just me who is amazed and delighted by all the feminism talk this week? It's like a happy dream, but I hope it continues

suggestions from Mr IC here for a developing world perspective:

Feasting, Fasting - Anita Desai (novel)

bananas, beaches and bases - Cynthia Enloe (non-fiction; a study of the impact of gender roles in international relations)

plus anything by Beryl Markham, a woman very much ahead of her time

Yes to Braided Lives - love it.

So glad this thread has sparked an interest but I have to say it is Dittany who indirectly inspired the thread. She is a true feminist I feel, I have a long way to go. There is obviously a lot of great literature out there and I can't wait to get started. It will be my new hobby

Dh is sceptical about feminism, but then he would be wouldn't he? He is a very gentle and intelligent man and repsects me and what I have done for the kids, but I still feel he gets to have his cake and eat it i.e. a great career and being a good father. I don't blame him, it is society and culture. Women still have a long way to go

I've always loved that poem, Elephants!

Great pictures of the march. Wish I'd been there.

Mr IC here again. If you'd like shorter pieces to discuss, try:

The Secret Self - Hermione Lee (ed) (short stories)

The Virago Book of Women Travellers- Mary Morris & Larry O'Connor

incidentally if any man is ever sceptical about feminism ask them if:
a) they agree that women should have the right to vote
b) a woman doing the same job as a man deserves to be paid the same

If they answer yes to both questions then they are, on some level, a feminist. There is of course way more to feminism than that, but it's a start.

If they answer no to either, suggest they move to Saudi Arabia. They'll be right at home.