My mother - abusive, mental or misguided?

[letitout]

Have namechanged. Been wanting to post this for a while as i find it very difficult to mention it to anyone in RL.

I had a difficult relationship with my parents, particularly my mother, still do. I don't think i love or like her much at all. Its very hard to pinpoint exactly why, i can think of scores of little bad memories, but there is no defining description i can put to the feelings i have.

I am an only child, was always very independent and strong willed. She is hyper, anxious, a bit ocd probably (gets up at 4 in morning to 'do her jobs' - ie cleaning), and just so different to me in all respects.

I could write at length about various things, but a couple of things i would liek to find out what other people think iswas going on... are...

Between the age of 11 - 13 i think, she used to (not sure of how many times, prpbably 10 or more in total) burst into my bedroom a while after i had gone to bed, and ask me if i was 'touching myself', she would then ask to smell my fingers for proof. In my memory, I actually never was at the times she did this. I find it very very painful to write this, i feel very angry still about it. I could put it down to old fashioned attitudes to masturbation (although she actually appears fairly open minded about sexual matters, can make innuendos etc in public), but it felt so intrusive and oppressive, it was awful.

Other times she burst into my room when a mate was staying over (we were just pratting about, jumping on the bed) when we were about 13, and accused us of 'being dirty' with each other. She also burst in a few times when i was doing homework (i am talking creeping up the stairs and throwing open to door) and accused me of sniffing tippex ( i wasnt) and being a drup addict.

I did use drugs recreationally for a while but way way after this period.

HAve seen my mother this weekend, and every time i see her am left with horrible, hateful feelings towards her. I feel guilty that i dont love her, and have no connection. She is a good grandmother to some extent.

This post is really to ask, is the finger sniffing a form of mild abuse, as my DP suggests, or just something to do with her own foibles, childhood etc that i need to let go of.

Thanks in advance for any interest.

Definitely abnormal. I'd lean towards calling it abusive myself.

Well depending on your age, your mum might not be old enough for the "old fashioned" excuse.

I would say abusive-definitely an extremely odd thing imo.

Says more about her & her problems imo though.

Abuse? I don't know, does it feel like that to you?

Weird & inappropriate? Definatly.

Did she give you the "facts of life" talk? I am just wondering if he own upbringing with regard to sex was repressed, so she didn't know where to start and may thought sex was "dirty"?

Just because she's your mother doesn't make her automatically loveable. Is she a decent enough person that you can be around her? If so, why not start from that point?

I think b)

All three, possibly. Why would any of those three eliminate the other two?

Agree all 3. Amazed she ever had kids. She sounds like a 1950s Catholic nun from a TV drama. The abuse is probably secondary to her general looniness and uptightness though.
It would mean I'd limit contact to your kids when teenage though.
Is your dad equally uptight?

Does it feel abusive? Not sure, i feel angry and intruded and oppressed about this and several other things. When she saw me naked at around 12 in the bathroom she asked me if i had been 'playing with myself' as she could see my labia - why did they lok like that. I think that gave me a ral body hang up for years.

I am 40! She was brought up in the 40s/50s, but bizarrely my grandmother - still alive at 91 is actually quite 'modern', and still lusts after men. Her attitude to sex seems fairly normal, as does my mothers superficiallky. No she never gave me the 'talk', just asked me whether i knew about 'the birds and the bees yet', i said yes, she left it at that!

Whn i started my periods, i tried to hide it from her for a couple of months (not that unusual), in the end it was my dad who had to give me the 'talk' about the fact that they 'knew'. That was awfully embarrassing.

I am pregnant with my second child, not sure if this is coming to the surface because of that. When i saw her at the weekend, her anxiety and oppressiveness around my son really pissed me off, think it has prompted this post.

Notquite - you are right, shes def the latter two, just wondered if feeling it was mental abuse was me being over hormonal!

Yes, i suppose i have to be around her at times, she doesn't live nearby, i just sometimes wish she would just go away forever.

2rebecca - funny you should say that. She is the opposite, very glam, blonde, slim, very very concerned with weight, appearance etc, me much less so. Loves being seen as sexy, attractive, glamorous, so not at all catholic or nun like.

In some ways, if you met her, you would think the behaviour i am describing is incongruous with her personality. She is all for page 3 (yuk) and such like. Makes me think her repression was about me as opposed to her general feeling about sexuality?

Letitout, some of the things you describe remind me a bit of my mum, if not these exact issues - but definitely the inappropriateness and leaving you with very uncomfortable feelings. My mum would ask about masturbating out of the blue and be physically inappropriate. She was also obsessed with people being ill and would smell you for that reason . Yours sounds as if she has a thing about "dirtiness".

In my case, I also had my dad who very definitely was abusive, so comparing them, I suppose I would say my mum (and maybe yours) fall more into the category of weird and off the rails than deliberate abuser. (but I'm not excusing her)

It makes you feel awful, and it definitely wasn't right - and obviously makes for a difficult relationship with her now - so don't try to suppress that. You haven't done anything wrong and it's OK to admit you don't like her and seeing her brings up bad feelings. You don't need to "let go" of this though a counsellor might help you live with it and get rid of the guilt.

btw I'm also pg and I think I get much more hyper-aware of all these feelings when I am. I try to get on on a surface level with my mum, but fundamentally I have no respect for her. I often have to have a big rant to DP - luckily he is very sympathetic as he dislikes her too.

Well, you asked if it was abusive or "just something from her own childhood". The two aren't mutually exclusive - far from it. Yes, your mum sounds quite screwed up over some issues that probably do stem from her own childhood. Most abusers are (perhaps unconsciously) re-enacting scenes from their own childhood.

Obsessive cleaning is often a symptom of "feeling dirty", so it's a fair guess her own sex education was a long way from ideal. This may very likely have caused her to feel extremely uncomfortable about your puberty: if we assume she has unresolved issues to do with her own sexuality being "dirty", then she would have both projected this feeling on to you when you became sexual, and been very fearful for you. If something traumatised her at that age, she would have been desparately scared that it would also happen to you. She may not have been aware of it, though.

Understanding of child abuse has moved on a lot in the past 10 - 15 years. Hundreds of things, which would now be thought abusive, would not have counted as abuse before then. Weird, yes - like your mum with the fingers - but not 'abuse' as such. Whether you choose to call it abuse is your decision: be guided by your feelings, not what anyone else says.

Both of my parents acted in ways that were sexually abusive by contemporary standards. Like your story, they were a little beyond what other girls' parents did & said, but more a matter of strangeness on their part than sexual interference. I see it as an expression of how they were brought up - very sad, for them and for me - but I count myself lucky that I had access to far better information than they had, at the same age.

In short, I feel sorry for them and fortunate that I know better.
HTH

Is she a lesbian who never came to terms with it? She seems to be going out of her way to appear heterosexual, but the page 3 thing -- why? This seems like the behaviour of a very oppressed woman; policing and judging the sexual activity and behaviour of other women is a hallmark of the truly oppressed. And there's a big dose of obsession/ compulsion there too. Why did she just have one child?

What do you know about her family of origin besides your gran (who seems a little strange too -- tth? Is the lusting thing more like desperate to please or seem attractive to men?)

What you described is abusive on many levels, and your dad didn't help either. Have you ever thought about counselling? I would keep my children away from her completely, tbh.

Gosh, some interesting comments here, thanks so much.

I don't think she is a lesbian, a man pleaser yes, or a people pleaser in general actually. I have some experience with men and women who never came out, i really cant see it. Oppressed though... but what about?

Why did she have one child? Only time i ever asked her she told me that when i was little they asked me and i said i didnt want them to have another - charming, blame it on me! Out of order. God, i wish i had siblings so much. Why do you ask about he one child mathanxiety?

While i am letting it out. I was midly abused by my piano teacher - rubbing his hard on up against my back during lessons- whilst my parents were out when i was about 12/13. I tried to tell them and they were very evasive and unsupportive. To be fair she did start to make sure whe was in at the time, but i had to almost beg her! Another friend of theirs used to try to touch my breasts when i was about 11/12, again when i told her, she actually said, i kid you not "oh, thats what hes like, some men are like that".

When said piano teacher died a few years lateer, i said i was gald, and she went mad and said i was evil.

I felt very unprotected. Luckily it never progressed to anything more. Not sure where this all fits with the other stuff.

She, and my dad, are very repressed about farting and such like. They cant even say 'trump', look mortified if someone does... "Has somebody made a smell?". Again, not significasnt or unusual in itself, but they are a very odd combination of being quite liberal (walk arund naked, go topless, constantly comment on others looks/appearance) and being very uptight and repressed. Hard to explain, very hard.

Hi

You have received some very good counsel already so I won't repeat.

Re your comment:-
"When i saw her at the weekend, her anxiety and oppressiveness around my son really pissed me off"

She is patently not a good grandmother either if she is now acting in such a manner as you describe above. This is no good for your son to witness.

Abusive parents like yours do not make for good grandparents. They are quite happy more often than not to pass on their issues to the next generation.

Often such recalling of abusive behaviours inflicted by parents (the very people who were supposed to protect you) arise when the child now adult goes onto have children of their own and become parents themselves.
I would look into receiving counselling for your own self, BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Is your Dad still in your life these days?.

I would keep well away from your mother and her husband too as he never managed to fully protect you from her for reasons known only to him (he may well have acted as a bystander within this inherently dysfunctional unit for want of a quiet life and for his own self preservation).

You may also want to read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward.

Your last paragraph sounds just like my parents! Trying - bravely, IMO - to overcome repression. So they did an imperfect job, at least we didn't have our fingers broken for masturbating! (Very common in my parents' generation - so that would be your grandparents', more or less.)

It's funny when you start to see your parents for the complex, flawed, fragile & intriguing people they are, isn't it? (with sufficient detachment, I mean)

Some women absorb a generally negative view of themselves and women in general from their upbringing and from the times they were children. There are middle aged and older women who tut tut and say ridiculous things like "She went and got herself pregnant", look down their noses at unmarried teenage mothers, assume all other mothers are respectably married, object loudly to single women living on benefits, and generally frown at the idea that women have a right to have a sex life the way they want it, regardless of marital status. There are women who think it's a woman's fault if she 'gets herself raped' (yes, I have heard this phrase).

They tend to let men off the hook or think there are two sides to the story for crimes involving violence against women, like dv or rape. They tend to take a very poor view of men's ability to control themselves or be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex. All indications of oppression. As is man-pleasing, not protecting a child against a perverted piano teacher, commenting about other people's appearance -- did she disapprove of fat women? I asked why she had just one child because I wondered what her attitude to pregnancy was. Some women of her generation are deeply ashamed of their 'womanliness' and sexuality, which is never more publicly visible than during pregnancy, and never more uncontrollable or deniable. And it is never less deniable that they have been having sex. Maybe now that you're pregnant, you are sensing some negative vibes about pregnancy and female sexuality coming your way from your mum. I wondered if she was prepared to do her minimum duty and just have one pregnancy. The farting thing makes me wonder about her level of comfort with her own body and her own partner.

Women tend to complain here on MN (and I find it really irritating, tbh) about being 'hormonal', especially during pregnancy, but actually pregnancy is a time when we can be especially perceptive and sensitive and insightful, if we are alert and go with the hormonal flow and stop trying to discount our hormone-fueled instincts.

Interesting. I think I was an accident. She also claims (and everyone backs her up) that she didnt find out she was pregnant til almost 6 months? Apparently she had regular bleeding throughout and also thought she had a stomach bug - had been to the docs several times.

She also is happy to tell me how she only put on my birth weight plus 2 pounds (probably impossible) and nobody could tell she was preg.

I put on 3.5 stone! That probably is excessive but had humungous baby and bucketloads of water so midwife said. Am not overweight myself, size 12, but i was a fairly natural size 10 until i had my son, and she does mention how lovely and slim i used to be quite a lot.

Yes she hates fat women. I had never connected these things but you have got me thinking...

Others here have put this far more eloquently I'm sure, but wether or not it was abuse (I think it would fall in that category myself), the fact remains she did not treat you with the respect and sensitivity you deserved.

What rational adult would say it's acceptable to burst in on a young teenager, or make them feel uncomfortable about their body?

To cut her out of you and your family's lives might cause you more stress and upset though. But if I were you I would make sure her strange ideas weren't able to influence your own children.

Math, may I congratulate you on a fantastic post there, power-packed with insightful commentary on contemporary womens' ambivalence towards sexuality?
There, I just did

Funny isnt it. Reading my posts on here, i come across a bit wet/naive? I am, in fact, a feminist since my teenage years, am aware of a lot of these issues, aware my mother is a pleaser, values things i dont necessarily, (have been bought fake tan and razors on many occassions - actually once, in my late 20s, she wrote me a note on how to shave my bikini line like pamela anderson out of the blue!).

Sounds ridiculous, we weren't even close, and she certainly hadn't seen my bush for many years! Random body stuff. Suppose this all matters to her so much.

What i want to say is i have strong and reasonably well informed (devoured books on the issues when younger) opinions on womens sexuality, but when it is so close to home, and so tied up with all of the pain i feel, its very difficult to be rational and intellectual about it.

Thanks for the posts here!

Gosh, Grace, I don't know what to say.

Letitout, my mum also bragged about her lack of weight gain during pregnancy -- actually she came out of one pregnancy lighter than at her first prenatal appointment.

I think your mum was in deep denial about being pregnant with you, Letitout. And she probably spun a good yarn for everyone who knew her too. Only she would know for sure about the regular bleeding -- who could contradict her on this? Even if you don't gain much over and above pregnancy gain (about 18 lbs, baby plus placenta plus amniotic fluid plus a pint of extra blood) you would surely change shape a bit by about three months. Even my mum had to wear bigger clothes from about 3 months (she had non-stop morning sickness for 9 months each time, but still it was a matter of pride for her that she gained no weight).

oh, she's gooood, that mathanxiety is

I'm not an expert but I'd call it abuse purely because of how it's made you feel. And because I bet she didn't tell anyone - friends, family, etc that she'd burst in on you and demand to smell your fingers.

I wouldn't be letting her near your kids, sorry.

Sorry if this is going to make you feel worse but have you considered the possibility that she was was secretly hoping to find that you HAD been touching yourself and this would have (yuk) turned her on?

That and the note about shaving your bikini line could be attempts to find out things about you that she has no right to know.

So sorry if you're not ready to consider that possibility and I hope I haven't made things worse. She just sounds dangerous to me and I'd be concerned for your kids.

Oh, for goodness sake. The woman seems to have a bit of a problem with her daughter's sexuality (and her own), plus a lack of appropriate boundaries. Neither of those are especially unusual in mothers, sadly. It doesn't make her some kind of child-molesting pervert. Unless you meant "dangerous" in the sense of being unfashionably gender-biased vis-a-vis her grandchildren?

I used to have a friend who sounds a bit like your mum. She always looked immaculate and always wore make up, low tops, high heels etc. Men were attracted to her but her relationships never lasted long as she hated sex. She used to complain they were always after 1 thing, despite us saying that she tended to flirt and look as though she was "up for it" and maybe she should cool the flirting and body language a bit.

Now I suspect she needed counselling as I suspect the hyperfeminine and artificial exterior was maybe to compensate for her not being comfortable with her natural body and sexuality.

You'll never know I suppose as asking your dad about their sex life isn't really on!

I'd just keep contact to a minimum and not have her looking after the kids unsupervised if she's still critical.