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Feeling emotional and confused
Angiel · 15/06/2003 17:07
My apologies if this is long and rambling, but I don't know what to do.
My partner has his own business which is doing really well and we are finally sorting out the debts we had run up, while the business was getting off the ground.
My partner is passionate about cars, he has just got a new one, which we aren't allowed in, in case we ruin it. He has kept his old car as, he thinks it will be worth money soon.
Yesterday he told me that he wanted to buy another car, a car that he has always wanted. He had already applied for a loan, which had been agreed and I don't think it would have mattered what I said, he was going to have it.
I was upset as we are getting back our feet financially and I thought going out and spending money on a car, that he doesn't need, was too extravagant. It just seems that all his dreams and aspirations seem to lean towards the single man life style. It wouldn't have occured to him to go and get a loan to get some work done on our house, he has thought only of himself.
I don't begrudge him the car really, he works hard, he doesn't have any other interests, but it just doesn't seem to be about family life. I can't get out of my head that he would rather be living the single lad life style, rather than tied down with me and 3 kids.
It wouldn't occur to me to spend that much money on myself and he asked me if I had that sort of money, what would I do with it. I said I would like to get married. We were sort of laughing and joking about it, but I've now realised he has got no intention of marrying me, he just wants the car.
I can't believe how upset I feel. He says he loves me, has no intention of leaving me, isn't worried that I might run off with half his money, so why won't he marry me. I went to see my friend this morning as I was upset and when I came back he said he was going to look at the car again. He said that part of the reason he wouldn't marry me, is because I am like this. Upset, that he doesn't want to marry me.
He ended up shouting at me that there was no way he was ever going to marry me, so I could just forget it. I now wonder if there is any point in staying together at all. I don't think he wants me really and I'm gutted. We haven't got a perfect relationship, we have our ups and downs, but every disagreement we have seems to be down to me.
I can't really think what I'm trying to say now. I can't eat, I feel sick and I just don't know what to do. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life like this.
I can't be bothered to read this through, so sorry if there are any mistakes. Am I totally over reacting? What would you do in my position?
(Just so you know, I have posted this message on other site as well, but there are loads of sensible people on both sites and I need as much help as I can get).
Chinchilla · 15/06/2003 19:24
Angie - so sorry you are unhappy. From what you say, it does sound as if your dp is being a bit unfair. You are his partner, married or not, and the mother of his children. He should never buy anything so important as a new car, let alone getting a LOAN without discussing it with you. How would he feel if you went and bought something for the same value without asking him?
Personally, I get annoyed with my dh, because I am not allowed to drive his car, in case I damage it, but he is allowed to drive mine. I am more careless than him, because I see things as useful rather than to be cherished, so I can see his view a little, but his attitude still annoys me.
In relation to the marriage thing, I have been there. In my case, it was pre-children, and I gave him an ultimatum. However, if you do that, you have to be 100% prepared to carry it out, and I don't get the impression that you want to do that. A lot of people (not just men BTW) do not see the logical point of being married, and to be fair, I never had a really strong defence as to why I wanted to be married. However, in your case, your dp would have more rights towards the children if you were married (I think, although not sure if the law has been changed). He says that he doesn't want to marry you because of the way you are, but he also says that he does not want to leave you (so he must love the way that you are)!!!
Finally, when dh annoys me, I write him a letter, as I find that this is the only way to get my point across without the emotional side creeping in, and it also stops any responses. He tends to read it, think about my views for a while, and I then usually see some change in him. Even if he can't agree with you, at least he will know how you are feeling without you having to get upset at him.
Gilli · 15/06/2003 19:34
Woah, take a deep breath, I think. I don't think you're overreacting, but it looks as though this decision of his has brought a lot of hidden feelings up. Your partner appears to have decided to treat 'myself', rather than 'us', which suggests that he sees his income as his own rather than shared. If you have supported him while he has built his business up, then you are entitled to share in his success now, and even as his common-law wife the law would agree. There is a real communication problem which you probably need help to overcome, so that you can start talking to him AND feel confident when you do. I know Relate is very good at helping with this kind of issue, although I appreciate that you may not be able to afford it, and maybe someone else will have better advice. I do feel for you though, and I'm really not surprised you're so upset - I would be too.
mmm · 15/06/2003 19:34
It sounds as though he really wants that damned car, doesn't it, and maybe it's his symbol for remaining himself and enjoying being with you too. Did you want to marry him until he said he never would? I'm sorry you feel so sick about it. You said he works really hard and has no other interests so he just sounds like a man with a passion for cars to me; but it'd be nice if you could have some say where the money goes. Would you maybe be able to negotiate a loan for the house too ? Are you feeling unloved because he won't commit himself to marriage ? It must seem so unfair that you feel you are blamed for every row you have. Is he the sort of man you can talk to or is he strong silent type who 'brings home the bacon'?Are you feeling unequal in your partnership? He's probably content with your relationship how it is and doesn't realise how sad you're feeling. Good luck.
bossykate · 15/06/2003 19:35
it's not really about the car, is it?
practicalities first. how much can you not afford it? hope that makes sense - in my mind "can't afford" runs over a very broad spectrum... what i'm trying to say is maybe it's not "sensible" but is actually financially possible. if so, since cars are his passion, and he's always wanted this one, perhaps you could engineer a win/win and persuade him to take you all on the holiday of a lifetime (depends on the answer to the above of course) so that you feel you and the kids are not totally excluded from the new household prosperity. a good chance to rediscover the romance as well.
if you really, really can't afford it, i think that's a different issue. you say you had financial problems in the past - were they due to overspending/extended credit? would your dp be able to discuss with you what emotional needs the cars are fulfilling? this might set your mind at rest a bit in any event - could be a very different scenario to the one you dread (e.g. that he would prefer the single life).
on the emotional side - i'm sorry you had such a horrid row today. perhaps he only made that comment about not marrying you to inflict the maximum hurt. from what you say, he seems very committed in other ways. it sounds as though the marriage thing has been festering with you for a while. has he offered any more constructive comments about why he doesn't want to do the deed? no baggage from past relationships? are there other aspects of the relationship which make you feel insecure so that you feel you need the security of marriage?
a number of mumsnetters have spoken positively about going to relate and you can go on your own if you think that will help or you think dp won't be interested.
amateur psychology hour over!
hth and good luck
aloha · 15/06/2003 19:45
Angiel, I tend to agree with Gilli that's what's really upsetting here is that your dp seems to treat himself as a single man in many (most?) aspects of his life - and this car loan symbolises his lack of commitment to your relationship. I have to disagree however with the remark about common law marriage. I assume you are in the UK, in whch case there is no such thing as a common law wife. Is your name on the deeds to the house? if not you have no rights to it whatsoever. You have no right to alimony either, only to child support. You have very, very good reasons to get married. I am not surprised you are feeling insecure and I think you have every right to feel angry. Has your dp told you why he doesn't want to get married?
aloha · 15/06/2003 19:49
I don't mean to seem frightening! If he loves you and you love him (which sounds like the case) I think you should work on it a bit and try to get to the bottom of this not wanting to get married. If not, would he be prepared to make proper legal financial arrangements to give you equal status - eg shares in business, name on deeds to house as joint owner, etc. Splitting up from an unmarried relationship is very different from breaking up a marriage and not to be rushed into (not that either should be rushed into!!)
Angiel · 15/06/2003 20:14
Thanks for replying. I was beginning to think everyone was ignoring me.
What I didn't say originally was that he hadn't intended to tell me about the car and now because of my reaction, he says in future he will just go ahead and do stuff behind my back. This stems from a few weeks ago, when I was upset because, out of the blue, he announced that he was buying a house with his business partner. He has always talked of buying a property as an investment, but I had no idea that it was on the cards. He has taken out a loan for £20,000 for that as well.
It isn't really about the car. Like I said if we had the money there, I wouldn't mind him going for it. I think he thinks I'm strange because I don't have any big ambitions and there is nothing I really yearn for (only to be happy). So when he asked me what I would do if I had £6,500 to spend on myself, I was stumped. The only thing that I would really like is to get married.
He has always said that he didn't want to get married and I thought I had accepted that. I really didn't expect to feel so upset about it. He doesn't seem to be able to come up with a concrete reason for not marrying me, but I think he knows I will have more rights. I feel trapped and I think he likes it that way. It is much more difficult for me to leave now, than it would be if we were married.
I thought our relationship was ok, but like I said, if we have a row, to him it isn't just a row, its some sort of personality flaw of mine that likes aggro. I don't think I should have to agree with everything he says and does though.
Sorry I'm rambling again.
Tortington · 15/06/2003 23:13
its about trust and respect. not just this particular situation but relationships in general must be founded on trust and respect, they wont last if its for the children, they wont last if its just for lust ( examples)
money is a big thing in anyones life - no matter how much you have. and you cant trust him with it - he nees to see this link.
frankly this man needs to grow up. he cannot treat his partner like this - i presume he wouldnt treat his business partner like this and (i presume) he doesnt bed his business partner or have children with his business partner. and in a couple he may have a damned good business with hs business partner but if his family and his families trust and respect are continually flouted maybe one day in the future they may not be there to be mentlly abused.
i think the mariage question is a question of power. he has it and you dont. so tell him you have decided due to his recent behaviour you dont want to get married - it only cost money to get divorced - this way you dont really have ties.
see what he says or if his attitude changes. even if it doesnt - if he doesnt want to get married - he doesnt. i personally dont see the big deal - i have been married for 14 years - and its not the paper that held us together in the bad times it was probably the kids.
marriage - the concept is over rated - its respect and trust that gets you through - not love not lust not fear not consequence.
discussing family finances with you should be the norm - if you seeits not going to change then start providing for your own future with his bloody money = open a seperate bank accouont and put some away - set up a seperate pension paid for by him - in fact speak with him about the pension - if you havent already got one - and get one set up for you - if he is against it - then do it in secret.
i am the eternal pessimist - i have two other bank accounts one in my maiden name, i have my own finances sorted as far as we can afford - i have emergency taxi money hidden away for if we have an argument when we are out having a drink.
seriously though if he has so much money squirriling away 30 squid here and there wouldnt be missed
set up a college fund for your kids if you have the money as well( if u already havent) - instead of buying silly things
anyway its what i would do. its obvious you are very much in love with this man - i think from what you have said he is taking the piss and maybe its your turn
oxocube · 16/06/2003 09:46
Angie, nothing to add that hasn't been said already. It really does seem like your dp is playing a power game here: it would be interesting if you could follow Custardo's suggestion and see what his reaction is to you not wanting to get married because of his unreasonable behaviour.
On a slightly broader note, the issue of marriage, in general, is very interesting. I always wanted to get married when I met the right person but don't really know why! Maybe to me it felt more committed but that shouldn't necessarily be the case. Is this how you see it?Funnily enough, my dh always wanted to marry too, but then he is quite insecure deep down. We have been through horrible times like lots of people and he has said to me at a later date that the fact that we were married helped him to stick at the relationship. He also saw the marriage ceremony as important (not that he is religious) because we were making a committment to each other in front of family and friends. If our marriage failed, I think he would feel he had let everyone down and not just himself and me.
Sorry Angie, this is much more rambling than your post! I'll be thinking of you and hope things get back on an even keen soon. oxo xxx
Angiel · 16/06/2003 13:53
I was just wondering. If I decided that I've had enough, and I want us to go our separate ways. What are the chances of him moving out of the house. I know I can't make him move out and I know he would refuse to go. He would also refuse to pay the mortgage on a house he wasn't living in.
Is it possible that if my partner had the mortgage put in his name, that I could rent it from him and the council would pay the rent for me? I would obviously want an agreement that when the house was sold, I would get half of the profit. Is something like this possible, is it even legal?
I'm just trying to think of a way that I could get him to leave. It would make things so much easier on everyone and some sort of business type solution seems a much better bet.
sykes · 16/06/2003 15:15
I'm currently seperated with two small and very upset dds. I really wish it hadn't happened and would give anything not to be in this situation. My dds are devastated, my eldest cries in her sleep for daddy. You circumstances are obviously personal and if it's too hard/there's no trust and you don't believe it could work then it may be for the best to part. Just awful for the children - in my case anyway.
aloha · 16/06/2003 16:36
Is the house in joint names? If so you can force a sale and take your half of any profit. If not, it is his house (unless you can prove you have invested substantially in it - paid for improvements etc, but even then your share would probably be small). Otherwise you would have to rely on his wanting to help you leave him...would he do this?
WideWebWitch · 16/06/2003 18:32
AngieL, I wouldn't go the route of getting the house put in his sole name and renting it from him, really I wouldn't. I expect you can force a sale if the house is in both your names, although I'm no expert but it just seems logical to me. Can you afford to buy his half out?
He is behaving like a single man and I agree, you do have very good reasons to get married. I used to have a problem with this joint financial responsibility thing but I was the one keeping my finances separate. I don't know why, I'm not particularly well off but I just took a while to come around to the joint finances/responsibilities concept. I think I was financially independent for so long that I found it hard to get used to the idea that I should share everything and it worked both ways. I suppose I still would apply for a loan if I wanted one and I wouldn't expect dp to have any say in the matter (I'd tell him, just wouldn't expect him to disagree) but I don't think I'd apply for one for something frivolous and expect him to be OK with it. I have to say, I'd be furious if dp had a car and we weren't allowed in it, I really would!
Anyway, many other wise words here so I won't add to them but I agree with most of what custardo says. I hope you sort this out. Don't do anything hasty though, take your time, there's no rush.
Angiel · 16/06/2003 21:06
Things are now much worse. I told him I wanted to split up. He said there was no way he would move out, even if I could pay the mortgage. He also said he wasn't willing to sell the house. After a long crappy discussion, he said I should go and leave the kids with him. I stupidly said ok then.
I am so gutted. I don't want to leave my kids. What am I going to do?
bossykate · 16/06/2003 21:13
don't, don't, don't leave the kids! DO NOT MOVE OUT. seek legal advice asap - citizens advice bureau or solicitor. do it tomorrow. let him know you are no pushover and he is not getting off easy.
i was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt before but not now. what a charmer - not.
stay strong - you will get through this.
best wishes, bk.
prufrock · 16/06/2003 22:11
Listen to bossykate. Do not leave - the house or the kids.
Are you sure you really can't rescue this relationship. I know his behaviour has benn awful, but it does seem that you've gone really quickly from being a bit pissed off because he wanted to keep his finances seperate to leaving the father of your three kids.
I'm really not saying that his recent behaviour hasn't been awful, but it could simply be a case of him being incredibly commitment phope, and everything getting completely out of hand because you are both really really angry. Did you love him on Friday? Did you feel he loved you? Did you have doubts about the future of the relationship then? Do go and see a solicitor tomorrow, if only so you know where you stand and can feel more in control of the situation. But don't do anything hastily.
bossykate · 16/06/2003 22:45
prufrock, i was thinking the same, it seems to have all deteriorated very fast.
angiel, even if you think the relationship might still have a future, i would still seek advice immediately, so that you know where you stand if the worst happens. also, you might be able to stop him in his tracks next time the "discussion" takes this unfortunate turn.
prufrock · 16/06/2003 22:47
AngieL - I have to say you shouldn't take up goddessmumz offer (lovely though it is) - if I'm completely wrong and he is a total scumbag, you shouldn't go away anywhere until you have legal advice - it could be misconstrued as leaving the family home to him and he could make it difficult for you and the kids to get back in.
Chinchilla · 16/06/2003 23:05
Angie - DON'T do anything. He probably only said that you should leave to show you how silly you are being (in his eyes). My dh does exactly the same. You know, the 'I'll pretend that I don't care, because she wants me to tell her to stay'. It is a control thing. If you back down, he has got you over a barrel. The thing is not to make wild threats in the heat of the moment, because an ultimatum should always be something that you absolutely mean to follow through on.
Calm down. Sleep on it. Then see how you feel in the morning. Do not leave the house, and don't leave your kids.
Good luck. Let us know what you decide.
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