To leave or not to leave ... what should I do?

[scarlotti]

Brief background - dh and I together for 7.5 years, married 2.5 of them, 2dc's together (4 and 3 months) and one dc from my previous life (15)
Right from the start I've been the one who organises everything, pays for most of it, has the positive outlook etc. I'm the main breadwinner which is fine, but I'm also the one who does the majority at home and with the child care.
He socialises with work mates but not really with me. If I manage to get him to agree to go out with friends or for us all to do something as a family it's like pulling teeth, and then he eventually agrees but all the obstacles leave a sour taste on what we then do, if that makes sense.
His family background is the traditional sahm and dad bringing in the bacon, mine was being raised by a single mum.
For both of my maternity breaks, I've had to save up the money to take time off, so have been contracting to earn a better salary. Flip side though is the jobs are never more then 6 months long so stress comes as part of the package.
Got the chance to get a permie job for a decent wage but will mean a drop in lifestyle (along the lines of make lunches rather than buy) - his response was that would increase his stress
He basically wants the lovely life/house/holidays etc. but isn't prepared to work himself to get it.
Have had a few problems, incl. 2 m/c, over the past year or two and had no support from him. If I'm ever sick, he's sicker iykwim.

I know nobody is perfect but shouldn't a marriage be a partnership? Shouldn't the support be forthcoming if one party needs it?
Friends and family think he takes the mick.

How do you know whether it's right to leave or not, and create the inevitable upheaval for the dc's? My dd does more around the house than he, and is resenting it, and I don't want my ds' growing up thinking that men just sit around and watch tv all day.

Sorry this is a bit rambly and not well put together - hopefully the gist of it all comes across though.

scarlotti,

re your comment:-

"Solid, my Mum was definitely in the camp of any man is better and I suspect that's what I've grown up believing".

That is not supposition; we learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents and your Mum taught you that particular damaging lesson. You need to unlearn it.

"I keep asking what he brings - he is funny and helps out when he wants to"

Cannot see any real evidence of that from your writings - you write that your DD does more around the house than he does. DO not make excuses for him; it makes you sound really weak and needy.

"I've put up with it in the hope that things will change but it's obvious he's never going to be what I need"

The first part of this sentence is truly a triumph of hope over experience and no he will never be what you need. He is quite happy to carry on as he is. He is also a poor role model for your children and on a wider level what are you teaching them about relationships?. History has a danger of repeating itself here.

"I think he needs someone who's happy with the traditional lifestyle and will be content with doing little in life.

No, he is a cocklodger and what he wants and needs is a dogsbody/slave to carry on where his Mother left off.

"I want more - we only get one shot and I want to sit on my rocker when I'm old and grey with heaps of stories to bore my grandkids with!"

Well stop analysing and start a plan of action!.

"I think if he did yell and shout, or was abusive or something then I'd find it easier to walk away. It's almost like it's not quite wrong enough - but maybe then I'm just worried what people might think".

But although he is not hitting you this is emotional abuse (he is not showing you any respect whatsoever, he does not want you to better your own prospects) and quite beside anything else do not let your perceptions of what people think stop you from acting. Even your family think he is taking the michael; their opinion is often instructive.

lucky - I don't know, and I suppose that answers the question really. Not enough to put up with how things are. The feelings I have aren't in the same league as the feelings I have for my dc's.

Atilla - thanks for the cyber kick! I can easily come up with defences for the points you've made but that's probably more because he's not all bad and so I feel the need to defend him.
The comment about his mother though is so true, she did everything for her boys and still does when we visit.

Now I guess I just need to work out when I should do it - DD has gcse's this year and DS starts school. Guess I'm just making excuses again though right?

Yes,you are making excuses.
He doesnt respect you and it will come to a point where your children dont either.
He is an adult and shouldnt have to be told how to behave.
We do only get 1 shot. You should be enjoying yours.

Scarlotti, if you do love him, you need to work it out together, or maybe with a counsellor as you said.

He needs to grow up a bit & work with you as a partnership.

What works with him? Does he enjoy rescuing you? Does he enjoy feeling wanted?

Perhaps you could say to him you want to work out how to get the 15 year old to help around the house a bit more, should you all work out a rota or something.

If you cold get HIM to work out how he could help, it would be a good way of doing it. When you say to him how little he does he'll see that as an attack, not a call for help.

It sounds like you love him. I asked for advice on here once & had the same 'leave him replies'. It wasn't really what I wanted, I was more after advice about how to make things better. Is it the same for you?

scarlotti, I agree with a lot of what people are saying but I would really, really urge caution. You are understandably hurt, angry and wanting out. Fantastic that you are starting the new job. That is a great thing -- it will give you some new horizons and change of scene. Try to build bridges to a potential new life there.

But I'd also urge you to think about this carefully and talk to a neutral pro just once even before you take the step of leaving. You sound really confused -- am I making excuses for him? Am I being to hard on him? Is he good for me or could I be better off without him? Only you know! So maybe use that Relate appointment to talk to someone by yourself to get your head straight?

I say this from the heart and feeling so cut up for you because I have been in exactly your position, having talked myself into just the state you are in and turning to friends and family to try and work things out.

They are not married to him you are. Therapists don't give advice they ask searching questions that friends tend not to for fear of hurting or alienating you. You need someone to help you probe your own feelings (I learned bad habits from my mother -- should I have expected her to give me good, neutral advice?)

I even left for a while no kids involved, never told anyone outside my parents and Gran because I thought it was probably over. I went to a pro because I was so depressed and needed (I thought) someone to help me get over the failure of my relationship.

Looking back, I see that objectivity she brought to my situation was like a breath of fresh air into the situation. I had to think, and be honest with myself about my foibles like never before. I had been blaming him when I was equally responsible for how things were. I'd never escape that part of it by just leaving him and would take that to whatever new relationship I tried to form.

We tend to talk to our friends and family and tell them what is bugging us, and the dynamic of talking like that is to produce a kind of echo chamber. People want to be supportive and they think they are helping you by agreeing with you. That can really comforting and wonderful on one level but it does tend to amplify the feelings you have -- genuine feelings of neglect, hurt, abandonment etc. It doesn't help you learn new things and how to change situations constructively.

The thing is that you have invested a great deal in this relationship. I may not be making myself popular here, but that is what honest, anonymous advice boards like this can be great for.

I agree he needs a real kick up the a*se but hand on heart do we know the whole picture in a rounded way? Only you do. He's not hitting, drinking, gambling, cheating -- those are really, really hard to change and dangerous. I'd always say leave any relationship with any of that going on. But let someone help you see clearly: what brought you together, and can that be found again?

Will 3 months, or 6, make a real difference? Go and see someone professional, whose job it is to be objective and help you see clearly. If you still decide to leave, you can make a plan, and maybe limit the regrets and not repeat the same pattern.

whoa that was a long one!
Big hug whatever you decide S

scarlotti,

Yes you are making excuses for him and I think you realise that. I think he knows full well what he is doing and is quite happy to drag you all down with him. This is certainly what he is currently doing.

Please do not feel an urge to rescue this lazy individual - you are not there to act as a rescuer and or saviour.

Acting as either a rescuer or a saviour in a relationship never works.

You need also to consider what your children are actually learning here about relationships from the two of you. Between you both, you are currently imparting these young people damaging lessons. Your H has no respect for you and does not want you to better yourself in any way.

PreRaph sounds like we are on the same page. I got a lot of 'leave him' replies from friends/family IRL. But we wanted to be together on some level, and we wanted the same things in life. No abusive/subtance/addiction issues either. Those are deal-killers, really.

In scarlatti's case, lest we forget, there are three kids, and this has very big implications for them. I think that needs to be considered too before we rush to offer her help with the packing.

I think she needs to take a step back and get professional advice. Flame me, but ... IME therapy works sometimes. An example very very simplified?

We were kids, damaged kids, when we married. No wonder it went pear-shaped, fast. We both needed to grow up and get a grip. Big issue was that DH was not 'there' -- he worked tons, wasn't 'taking care' of me or even helping out much.

[on the couch]

Me: I always take care of him and arrange nice things, take responsibility, carry the can when things go wrong, etc.

Therapist: Would you describe yourself as a control freak?

Me: Uh,

Therapist: Hmm. Do you think DH feels he needs to take charge? And how would you react if he did, in something that really mattered to you?

[Flashback to control-freak parents who sniped at each other constantly.]

So I learned: I like making choices, I have strong views, doing things for people makes me happy, and I like things just so. Would I be happy with someone like me?

I made this rod for my own back. It's a bit much to expect him to magically sense the gaps where I want him to take care of me. His laid-back attitude is something I love best about him. We'd actually fight if he was different, and I ran a mile from that -- I can't stand strife because of my parents' experience!

He's a good man and does his best in the ways he knows how. But he also needed to hear I was unhappy, and he did change. Leaving him briefly was a shock, I think, to both of us. It's all out in the open now and he tries to adapt, as do I. Not perfect, but pretty darn good.

And now, here I am spending far too much time online because DH and DS1 are bowling, because DS2 is sick, here in our bed, napping next to me

I think you have 4 children to look after and honestly you will be better off without him and so will your kids with him bringing you all down.

LeninGrad, it is really complicated and took months, so sorry if it sounds simplified. The main thing was that we both grew up.

He learned that I was not his mother, I was his wife and that he needed to buck up his ideas. I needed however to stop acting like I was his mother because it was not good for either of us.

I was the one who was unhappy, and he needed to really understand that, and learn how to change. That is where I think my situation is like scarlatti's. He did need to learn that the passive, stay-out-of-the-way strategy he learned from his strife-ridden childhood was not doing him or us much good in resolving our 'issues'.

But I also needed to learn that I had a problem, starting with unrealistic expectations. (Not that I think scarlatti's sound like they are). After an unhappy childhood I thought by sheer force of will I could create all the things that I had yearned for, using the messed-up patterns I learned from my parents (both adult children of alcoholics). That was a common mistake -- instead I carried all the baggage from that into my marriage. (We both did, actually.)

It was awful, but hearing people tell me yes, it's awful, poor you, without seeing the whole situation was not helping me. I needed to be honest with myself and learn strategies to change the situation where I could before giving up.

And IRL in recent years I have watched lots of friends' relationships break up.

Sometimes it's for the best -- wanting different things, esp as kids are leaving home (and one girl's husband tired of going straight and left her for another man ...).

But so many people seem to just blame the other partner and walk away, which is tragic to me.

Scarlotti, does he contribute anything at all to the family?

Absolutely right LeninGrad -- that is exactly my point. It felt so easy to blame him (and he would be first to say he was being a bum) but when I saw it differently, I stopped blaming him and myself and that was enought to start to make it better.

BTW I meant it took months to figure out and talk thru!!! Much more complicated than I sort of make it sound.

Yes GG, we are on the same page.

We have a will to work at it & try to make things better.

We don't want to walk away, we love our other half.

It's not easy & takes more courage than walking away but potentially the rewards in the long term are greater I feel!

Too right, LG. We are!

I don't want anyone to think I would judge them for walking away. I just wanted to give Scarlatti another view.

Family were all telling her he's taking the mick. So do a lot of posters. The fact that they all agree means ... they all agree, not that they are right.

Mr Scarlatti may not be worth any more effort but wanted to present the case for working it out.

I am also an optimist

GochaGocha: look, sorry but 'At least he's not hitting you, gambling the housekeeping or an alcoholic' doesn;t mean he;s a good enough partner. Being a completely selfish, lazy shit for years on end is being a lousy partner, and men like this do NOT change. They usually run off to another (probably vulnerable, probably desperate) woman and make a doormat of her too, because they fundamentally believe that women exist for the purpose of servicing men.

GG - I'm really grateful that you've taken the time to give the alternate point of view. As you say, it's so easy to say walk away.
We already are on relate's waiting list so I'll be using that to explore what is happening and whether it can be fixed, before leaving if that ends up what happens.
My situation sounds very similar to yours GG.

Pfft - he does contribute, but the bare minimum. I had to ask him to up his financial contribution when I went on maternity and he did it grudgingly. He cooks tea when we're both working and will do the shopping sometimes. He doesn't drive so that makes it hard for him to do a lot of stuff, meaning more falls to me.

His instinctive reaction when things are tough is to put his head in the sand and wait for them to get fixed by someone else.
I'm the type of person who is constantly striving to make a better life for us so you can see how why it makes me so frustrated.
I do think that maybe I've now run out of second chances though - I want to be with someone that listens when I say I'm unhappy and wants to do something about it, rather than just pay lip service and say what I want to hear at the time but then not back it up with anything.

Appreciate you all taking the time to give me your opinions, it really does help.

Solid - x-posts - that's my worry here. We've had 'talks' so many times and he's said he'll up his game, but he never does. I honestly believe he thinks there's nothing wrong with the way he is. He thinks he does a lot and gets quite put out if I suggest otherwise.

this is a total side issue, but is it just me who wonders why a man "doesn't drive" ?

Because he's got a chauffeur! Duh

Look, I'm all in favour of reasonable behaviour, negotiation, compromise and compassion in a marriage. I spend half my free time helping to fix relationships. But ...
... sometimes I read a thread where an OP is getting advice on how to improve things at home, and I think:
"Oh, god, THIS is why I stayed in abusive relationships! THIS is the kind of woolly thinking that makes victims out of partners!"

This thread is one of them

My DH doesn't drive but he does more than his fair share at home. For example he's happy to be sent to the supermarket to pick things up, he likes the walk and he'll often take DD in her pram so she has a little trip out and gives me a break. What is your DH unable to do because he doesn't drive?

AnyFucker - DH always lived in central London and never got round to learning. He's utterly self-sufficient when it comes to transport, will just walk or get the bus wherever he's going.