'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Mummiehunnie, what a heartbreaking post. Thank you for your honesty!

In a similar way to you, I believed the "bad Daddy, poor nice Mummy" double-act ... and, like you, had a permanent sense of anxiety in my tummy. Just typing that has brought it back! Aarghh! I also (inevitably) was stupendously slow to realise how vile my husbands were to me, and that the majority of my close friends were psychologically unstable freaks, using me for their own ends and amusing each other at my expense!

You seem to be doing so well in your own process, I probably have nothing to teach you. But I did want to let you know there's a glowing future ahead of you. You began your process at 36 - nine years ahead of me - and have your own children. Which means you're off to a much better start than me. Despite my life (materially and socially) having fallen in ruins around me, I am now content - a state I used to make fun of, because I couldn't hope to achieve it It's nice! I did, also, fish out one or two sane people from amongst the remains of my friends, and am grateful to recognise their strengths & weaknesses, free of my own 'agenda'.

Having recently had a bad wobble with my Mum - she regained control of me, this time completely - I'm back on my own and have successfully resumed 'neutral gear' with her. We talk, but not about me ... she's only interested in one topic really, anyway, so it isn't hard to keep the conversation focused on how fascinating she is!

It's weird, isn't it, thinking about being loved? So many different kinds of love ... Mum does love me, in her own way. The fact that her variety of love is poisonous is unfortunate - still, I consider myself more blessed than family members who still believe her 'myth'. Their lives are still warped & poisoned by it. Some of my friends love me - not in a big way, of course, but they do, bless them! My exes loved me, though I certainly don't want anybody to love me like THAT again!! The best thing, though, is that I'm starting to love my self. Really: in a warm, comfortable & confident sort of way. I can't wait to watch this grow

And I know you will find the same love within yourself. Good luck with your new counselling.

SAHM, thanks, though believe me, there was an awful lot more than most of the posts here, including a potted history of my childhood, which I doubt you really need to know!

The stupid thing is that I've conscioualy told myself so many times that it wasn't my mum's fault - it's a chain of toxic behaviour that goes back to my great-grandmother. My mum was an only child who had very little freedom as a child; everything she did had to be related to my nan, who wqas fairly neurotic, though she's mellowed with age. My mum was woken up at 8 each day by my nan coming in and thrusting the curtains open, (even as a much older child) and forced into a dreadful marriage because her parents didn't want her living with a man while unmarried. (It was only after that first marriage was well and truly over that she met my dad.) My nan, on the other hand was the eldest of three, born when her mum was seventeen. She spent most of her childhood living in her grandparents house, and once overheard her mother telling one of her aunts that she wasn't wanted and wasn't liked. So, in a rational moment, I know why my mum is like she is, and I feel sorry for her.

But that doesn't change the fact that I grew up being told I was 'selfish and lazy', to the point where I would, only semi-jokingly, describe myself as 'basically a nasty person', and this was in my teens. `I used to look in the mirror and fail to see anything attractive about myself, because we (myself and my younger brother and sister) had spots mercilessly pointed out when they occured, and because I felt such a failure that I couldn't see past that. (My mum used to call my brother 'spotty' and 'obese' when he was younger, apparently to make him wash and exercise more, but it didn't do anything other than damage his fragile self-esteem. He has ADD and various other learning issues and was bullied mercilessly until pulled out of school for his weight and being unable to keep up in class.)

Partly as a result of the things my mum said about me to my face, I grew up wondering why people seemed to like me, and assuming it was a front to manipulate and bully me. I had a bad experience when I was ten where a girl who I thought liked me turned out only to like me when the popular girls were nowhere in sight, and that combined with my mum's remarks to really cripple my ability to make friends. Right up until a couple of years ago I was immediately suspicious of anyone who seemed to like me without me having done something worthwhile to earn their friendship. Friendship was something I thought had to be hard earned, and constantly repaid with favours, and nice gestures. Even my best friends at school (who I couldn't see outside of school because my mum's complaints about ferrying me around didn't seem worth it) I suspected of messing me about until I realised that we were all 'unpopular' together, and they 'gained nothing' by hanging out with me. I was convinced that people must despise me for being different, and not having interesting shoes or a nice bag or a mobile phone or any of the multitude of other things that girls raved over at my (all-girls) school.

My mum kept a tight leash on my sister and I, and we rarely socialised with anyone but each other outside of school. Because of that, it wasn't until I started working full time that I began to learn how to talk to people properly. In the last few years, meeting my DP and seeing his frustration at my utterly submissive behaviour. (Even when it comes to choosing what to have for dinner I instinctively feel that he should get to choose because he enjoys, and therefore does, the cooking. He moans at me sometimes for being so indecisive, but it stems from a belief that I don't have the right to dictate what other people do.)

Urgh, it feels good to get that off my chest a little.

TW - " I grew up wondering why people seemed to like me, and assuming it was a front to manipulate and bully me."

Oh, god, yes! If I ever told my parents somebody had said something nice to me, they'd say "Oh, I wonder what they want, then?" Grrr. Some time in my mid-30s, I realised that I was cynical, sarcastic - and disliked myself for it. That cynicism cost me endless opportunities, which landed in my lap. I rejected all the good offers & people because, as I was worthless, they must have been "after something" ... The same thinking led me to embrace nasty people & exploitative jobs, which felt as if they suited my true worth.

How sad that you lacked the confidence to choose what you eat Your DP sounds like a sweetie: does he know how conflicted you still feel about your upbringing?

OrdinarySAHM,

Wow, I could've written your post about the quasi-boy thing with a few minor alterations! Although luckily I found some great and lasting girl friends when I was 19/20 and my brother is 8 years younger than me so I never played with his friends.

But I also grew up thinking that women were all weak and pathetic because my mother was - and she actually is, that wasn't just my child-like perception! (I mean what kind of mother would rather her 11 year old daughter did some heavy lifting than her!)

But because of that I never had a role model or template of a strong, exciting, adventurous woman - I thought girls were rubbish and boys were the fun, adventurous ones. It's taken a long time but I now know women can be feminine as well as strong, brave, sporty etc. But I never had that side of my gender validated by my mother and my father would only validate that side and not my feminine little-girl side. I hope that makes sense and I'm not spouting bollocks!

mampam, I'd be very interested to hear more about your experience when you're ready to tell the tale. But just one example of an absolutely massive row my parents had with me (and I deliberately put it that way round!) when I didn't obey them without questioning which illustrates my point -

When I decided to start learning to drive I mentioned it to my parents and they said great, you need to learn on an automatic. I said er, no, I'd like to learn on a manual as if I learn on a manual I can drive both kinds of cars but if I learn on an automatic then your driving license only covers you to drive them.

No, said my parents, you have to learn on an automatic and you'll just buy an automatic car.

No, I want to learn on a manual so I can buy whatever car I want I said. Cue massive and I mean MASSIVE loss of temper from both of them about how i never listen to them, never take their advice and they know a lot about cars etc etc etc. They shouted at me for about half an hour and the whole simmering row went on for weeks.

And in case you were wondering I was 22, working and paying for the driving lessons (and subsequent car) myself!

How screwed up is that? Have you ever heard anything so ridiculous?

Weird!
Talk about 'entitled' - I wonder what goes on in their minds, when they decide they have the right to tell you what to spend your own money on, to the extent they feel justified in shouting at you for half an hour?? Boggling

Weren't you tempted to get a motorcycle instead?!

A motorbike - oh how I wish I'd thought of that!! (Rhinestone imagines her parent's faces as she vrooms up the drive dressed as a Hell's Andel!)

Thanks for the reply Grace, sorry I badly worded my post, what I meant was that my dh was working late and normally he is my sounding board and I need to just get it out somewhere to vent.

My dad hasn't phoned again, which is kind of unusual as he likes to take control and demands that I forgive what nasty thing my mother has said "because she is very upset, didn't mean it and is crying her eyes out."

Tbh nothing changes and every few months, my mother will say something really horrible about me and expect to be forgiven. It has gone on for all my childhood and all my adult married life.

I feel in my day to day life, I am always eager to please, as a result of always trying to please my parents.

I could be here all day listing all the things that they have done over the years but it would be pages and pages.

Lots of new posts and posters. Hello to you all. Have been short of time recently and still am. Just wanted to respond to a few things.

Bop, I think you and I seem to on a very similar wavelength. So often your posts articulate everything for me almost word for word. It would be so nice if I could find a RL friend like that. I completely understand your feelings about your DS going to nursery. I felt exactly the same as you when DS was barely 2 and I felt I had to send him to day nursery, only part time, simply because I needed the time and space to deal with my issues. I felt angry that even though I had cut my parents out of my life and was actively trying to elimate the effect they had had on me, they were still affecting my life and my own little family in a negative way. And even though it is true to say that most children go to pre-school and nursery etc before they start school, other children are usually there through the choice of the parents. I felt I had no choice, i needed time and space to sort myself out and therefore poor DS had to go to nursery. I still feel that because of this he as well as me has been a victim of my abusive/neglectful parents.

Rose, I was so pleased and happy for you when I read about your FIL openly and vocally 'witnessing' your experience with your grandparents. It must have made you feel so good inside to feel that somebody else has recognised and understood what you went through. Even though I have never met him I have respect for your FIL for having the courage to come off the 'safe' fence and stick his neck out and show to you that he is on the side of the little girl who went through such traumas.

I am really sorry that you feel you are having to justify your view of childhood. Why are you feeling like this? I get the impression that some of Grace's comments are making you feel this way? FWIW I think you are absolutely right. Some things are just wrong, and it's not a matter of perspective. There are some absolutes when it comes to what is right and wrong.

Grace I think you are wrong. I don't agree that because perhaps we were usually deemed to be wrong in our views as chidren by our parents who usually thought they were right, that we all now as adults feel compelled to convince and impose our views on others as always right. I don't think or behave in that manner, so you are not speaking for me, and from what I know of Rose which is obviously only from this thread, nor does she.

Grace, when you post and put your own views across but phrase them as we instead of I, I think you may be making people feel as if you are judging and criticising them. Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick on this, but I feel concerned that Rose is upset enought to step away from this thread and thus lose, even if only temporarily, a valuable source of support.

Bop I agree with the last paragraph of your post on wed 20/01 at 11.34. This thread has been a lifeline to me on occasions and I don't want people to feel wary about posting on here. I have posted things on here for which I know I would be shot down in flames in an instant anywhere else on MN. This has always been a safe place in which we can post our deepest darkest thoughts and feelings and know they will be respected and not judged or criticised.

I want this thread to remain that way and continue that way as it is obvious there are so many people out there who need the sort of help and support this thread has provided to me.

Mummiehunnie, hello and welcome to the thread. I am so sad to read what you have been through. It sounds very similar to my own experience. I thought my dad was the only bad parent for a long time, until, only fairly recently, I gradually started seeing our family drama for what it really was and my mum's role in the dysfunction came into full focus. I then realised that whilst my dad's abuse which was mental and psychological started around the time he had a mental breakdown when i was around 9, my mother had emotionally abandoned me from very, very early on. She had no bond with me and chose to do nothing about it. When my sisters were born and she did bond with them, i was completely cast aside by her and was therefore an easy target for my dad as my mother was not interested in protecting me from him.

I am glad you're starting new therapy. And I am glad your children love you and you know this. But the most important love to nurture and grow is the love you have inside you for the little girl you once were, who is so in need of love and looking after.

Just one more thing. I have realised that the 'original' feeling of being excluded and left out actually was caused by my mother. When my sisters were born she completely focussed her attention on them and never thought to try and include me in any way. A memory recently came back to me from around the time when DS was born. I remember doing something very similar with DD. I was totally besotted with DS (still am) and I am so sad to admit that I behaved like my mother. I excluded DD. I was happiest when it was just me and DS and i rarely made any attempt to include her in whatever i was doing with DS. She had other people around who were giving her attention. But I know the attention she wanted and needed was from me, her mother. It was from the time that my sisters were born that I felt excluded and left out. Later on they continued and compounded my feelings of exclusion and being left out. But they did not cause the original feeling. It was caused by my mother. As always, everything comes back to her, even if it takes me a long time to be able to see it clearly.

Rhinestone, I know exactly what you mean. My mum kept on at me to stop buying books after I started working full time, and started a blazing row over the whole thing.

I also had issues with my driving lessons - my mum kept on at how I was 'costing her money' by not having passed my test, and every time I failed she would be on at me to book the next test straight away, despite not being ready. She cost me a fortune; in the end I passed fifth time around. Just as well, she'd as much as threatened to never give me a lift to or from work should I need it. (Which was rough, considering the bus service was patchy.)

Still, at least she didn't yell at me over a descision on the type of car I wanted to learn with. I really sympathise with you there; that's totally out of line.

Thank you for taking the trouble to explain, TW. I've had a look back at the post you referred to, and see how it could have look presumptuous (though it wasn't meant that way). Point taken

I don't know why Rose has gone; I did get the impression it was because of something I said, and that's why I asked her if I made her feel invalidated. I have been surprised by how much this episode upset me. I couldn't work it out and, now I think I have some idea, am sad that Rose isn't available to discuss. In short, anyway, I felt "blamed" for something. I suspect the very strong urge I had, to run away & never look back at this thread, is connected to a feeling of being scapegoated (my childhood role).

I'm sharing this because I had to fight hard to work it through. It has some value to me, and possibly will do to someone else one day ... I'm sad, however, that I don't feel free to share my feelings openly. I'm not going to use the word "we" (!) but I am here to explore my vulnerabilities and, if possible, to address them. In a support thread, surely everyone is vulnerable?

God, WTSA, that's quite a revelation you had about DD & DS wrt your sisters! Congratulations on realising it, and on the connection you made. How did/do you feel about that now?

One of my close friends had a comparable(ish) situation with her youngest. My friend had trouble breast-feeding her, meanwhile the middle child was very affectionate & wanted lots of attention. As a result, the middle child got loads of attention while the youngest was stuck on a bottle and received less touching, playing and so on. She is still a very 'needy' girl. When my friend explained why she, now, indulges the youngest more than the others, it sounded weird to me ... but that was before I'd started understanding the impact of childhood issues

These days, I'm also indulgent with her. I'm happy to say my friend's "compensation policy" is paying off. The girl is far more confident & easy-going with each passing year, and shows every sign of growing up stable, healthy and successful

This is a pre/post-script - I wrote all this before checking the latest posts and now having checked what was being said before I pressed the post button, I am all thrown again. Grace, I really don't want to scapegoat you - god knows I know how that feels - but I really think there is an issue here. HAVE to go now, am going to press send anyway; if this really is all about my issues then i'm sorry but I have to call it as I see it.

WSTA - thanks for posting. I have been chewing away at this all day, and your words have given me the incentive to post. I am finding I can't really use the thread in the way I used to because this issue is worrying me, and I once again feel it is compromising the safety (and therefore raison d'etre) of the thread.

Like WTSA, I am very concerned about the impact this problem is having on Rose, and I think it indirectly affects us all, potentially.

My take on it is this: I think, Grace, that there is an unconscious note of attack in some of your posts, when you are responding to other people. Alarm bells first sounded for me in your post to KoalaSar re allowing her daughter to see her GM, and I think my subsequent post on the same issue probably showed that. I know it was a direct result of your post, I was very very disturbed by what you wrote and the way you told her you thought she was controlling if she didn't let them see each other - without knowing anything of the history, anything of what KoalaSur's mother had actually done to her or how well KS was coping with the aftermath of that - now that, irony of ironies, WAS an extreme judgement on a case you knew little about, THAT, to my mind, was exactly the kind of judgement that someone with healthy boundaries wouldn't make. I kind of wanted to take issue with you at the time, but given that it came so soon after the incident with SS on the previous thread, and that I was the one who first called that, I was chary of jumping in and starting another "fight" again, and so I just wrote my post with my very differing opinions in an attempt to balance yours.

And then came your post to Rose, someone who has been around on this thread for a long time, and who by her presence, her sharing of her own story and her responses to others has provided a lot of suppport for others, and just generally been one of the regular posters who have kept this thread going and therefore available as a resource to so many. I am sure you didn't mean it to be an attack, but it was, and that is why it has upset Rose so much. In fact, it was an attack veiled as support - which is one of the worst kinds, as many of those of us who have been at the receiving end of them know.

I quote:
"she can't say that about your parents because she has healthy boundaries.

It is interfering and insulting to slag off someone else's parents! In fact, to call anybody an 'awful' anything is too judgemental. You can say they're awful parents because you're speaking from your own perspective. But you can't reasonably say, for example, my dentist is an awful dentist even if I've told you he made some mistakes. You're not qualified to judge my dentist, and MIL isn't qualified to judge your parents."

What you were doing in essence was implying that Rose was in the wrong for wanting her MIL's unequivocal support on this issue. So you were in a way telling her to shut up. To not be upset over something that was clearly upsetting her, but just to "accept" the situation. And that the person who was letting her down here was not only not doing wrong, she was actually right to behave that way.

No she wasn't and isn't! The amazing thing is that you came out with this statement about "not making strong judgements if you have healthy boundaries" as if it were a genuine undisputed fact! As if there were some commonly acknowledged consensus about it among those who are aware and enlightened and striving to heal their pasts. And because your tone is very authoritative, Grace, and you sometimes present yourself as someone who has dealt with a lot of your issues and can be an older, wiser advocate to others, what you say carries some weight. But the truth is of course that this is not a fact at all, but an opinion that you have put together yourself. In my opinion, it is sheer nonsense - not even worth debating really, it's so far fetched. Genuinely healthy people do and must make strong judgements about things they are informed about and care about, and I have never heard anyone else ever suggest otherwise.

Yes, later you did - when people started to question you - slightly rephrase your point and admit that it was your opinion and not fact, but you still spoke as if it were a fact really, the "healthy" attitude to have. But I am not sure you are the person best placed to advise others on what is a healthy attitude, I am not sure you really know what healthy attitudes are. Which, if it is true, is clearly a result of your own awful childhood and the terrible abuse you suffered - and from what I understand of your story, it is very sad and deeply moving, and my heart goes out to you for that, and obviously part of me feels I should not be attacking you for anything - but I am attacking in defence, if you like, which to me is different from just attacking. I really don't want to seem vindictive or horrible to you, you seem like such a nice person who has been through some truly awful things, but I do think there is a blind spot here, and that that blind spot is dangerous, and that's the only reason I'm saying any of this stuff.

The awful thing here is that I do trust that you do not mean to attack anyone - and you obviously are a caring person, as well as a very intelligent and very courageous one, and you have already, in the short time you have been on the thread, offered a lot of support to a lot of people which has been gratefully received, for the most part. I do not wish to downplay that. But the thing is, it makes it all the more dangerous if then some of your statements/comments are attacking in nature, if people are used to you being supportive and understanding. It makes us actually a lot more vulnerable to an unexpected attack, because we have put some trust in you. Doesn't this start to sound horribly familiar to some people? I think this is exactly why it upset Rose so deeply - she had reason to expect support and empathy from you and got a knock back instead, and that hurts, especially when you have opened yourself up with some of your deepest, most vulnerable "secrets" - which we all do to an extent on here, because that's the reason the thread exists.

Again, I am not accusing you of any intention to hurt or attack, but I think that there needs to be more than an absence of intention to hurt when we respond to others? posts. My personal feeling is that we should feel free to use pretty much whatever language we like when we are talking about our own experiences, our own feelings and stories ? but that when we respond to others, we should tread very carefully. Rose said at the end of one post: ?But lets for a minute imagine that everyone on this thread are children again. Hurt, bullied, manipulated and abused and desperate for someone to believe them.? Powerful words. Andthe way I interpret them, specifically, is that that is what we should always have in mind when we post to others, in response to what they have posted. Everyone on this thread is vulnerable , everyone has been hurt and a great many of us have been hurt by people who also, at other times, showed us forms of caring and support, and that is one of the things that has fucked us up the most. My parents never meant to hurt me ? as my mother used to repeat ad infinitum, as if that cancelled out the fact they really, really had, and did - but the absence of intention to hurt is not enough in a parent There must also be a positive intention not to hurt, and to protect from harm; and I would suggest that a similar ethos is needed here. So when we reply to others, and comment on their situation, we need to tread carefully, stop and reflect what we are saying and how it could make that person feel. That?s the suggestion I want to put on the table, anyway.

Because the sad fact is that if we are all victims of emotional abuse, and other kinds, we all have issues, and those issues may well come out in the form of unintentionally hurting others. One of the consequences of being bullied is that we learn to bully ourselves - we call ourselves ?weak? and stupid, we tell that little person who?s still begging to be taken seriously and rescued to shut up and stop making such a fuss about nothing. And sometimes we will do that to others too. That is my very strong feeling on the matter, that is what I think happens at any rate, and I suspect this is what has happened here ? I think Grace that there is a part of you still trying to silence a child who is very, very badly hurt indeed, and your powerful intellect actually perpetuates that situation while seeming to support your healing process. I?m sorry if that?s intrusive of me to write - I?m breaking my own rule of not commenting in that way on someone else?s ?stuff?, I normally try to be respectful of someone else's "journey" and the fact we all need to take it at the pace that is right for us, not the pace someone else thinks we should be going at ? but I think this situation is potentially explosive so i?m going out on a limb.

Personally I think it?s kind of a miracle that the thread has lasted as long as it has with no major blow ups that I know of till just recently. But it?s still painful for me to see it turning from somewhere I thought of as a kind of ?home? to a bit of a battleground. I?m genuinely not sure whether it?s going to still work for me to post on here ? I don?t know how far I?m speaking for anybody else or how much I?m on a lone crusade; I don?t know if others will think that I am myself dumping my own issues on others .

The good thing for me in all this is that I have held my tongue for years and years and years ?like my family taught me to do ? when I have witnessed things that didn?t feel right, and it is something that weighs heavily on me, not because I feel I should have done more to protect myself as a child ? on the contrary, I am fully aware that they had all the power and I had none ? but because I am sick of rejecting my own power, now, as an adult. It is very hard to claim your power when you have been so totally disempowered, but I am now aware that I am a powerful person and I now have a good deal of faith in my own judgement, something that never ever used to be the case. So the process of saying how I really see it ? at the risk of censure, rejection or whatever ? is good for me, but I hope I am not doing it for that reason alone. I care about Rose and what she is going through, I care about the people on here and what we have all been through, I care about there being a safe space for those of us on some kind of a journey towards healing/recovery to use. A sanctuary. But obviously it?s not up to me to set the agenda; there's anything but a shortage of people who want to post here at the moment so the future of the thread seems assured, which is great.

I think I?ve said enough. Except ? OSAHM, your question about why I might be a ?relentless battler? (in my own words) got me thinking ? and I actually thought, well, I?m very glad I am becasuse if I wasn?t,, I wouldn?t be here today. Quite probably wouldn?t be alive at all, or living some really miserable non-life, an addict, a prostitute, god knows. I know 100% that I wouldn? t be a happily married woman, because I had to fight to make that happen (fight against the programming that made it impossible for me to have functional relationships, not fight my DH!!) and I wouldn?t be a mother, because I had to fight so hard to have my DS ? on an emotional level wrt to the same programming that said I could never be a mother, as well as the physical level ? all the rounds of IVF in my 40?s. Nobody goes through repeated IVFs without being a bit of a relentless battler, espeically not at that age. So actually I?m rather proud of being one. And will no doubt contiinue to be one for as long as I live. But of course even the most relentless battler needs to rest sometimes. Anyway ? hello to all the new posters, I am still reading but can?t repsond while this is so much in my head, but I agree with others that if you are telling yourself ?it wasn?t that bad?, that means it actually was.

If I do need to step back a bit myself I don?t want to go totally AWOL. So anyone who wants to stay in touch - those I have come to know and love over the time I've been posting, all you regulars - or anyone who feels a connection with what I say - I've set up a new anonymous email

bopthealien at googlemail dot com

one final thing to add - I always thought it was a delicate balance on the thread, and that if we started getting into commenting on each other in certain way it would end up a huge head fuck, which is why personally I never wanted it to be a group therapy type of thing, just unconditional support and if you can't give that, don't say anything. We need boundaries. I thought I knew what they were on here, but now I seem to be breaking them too. Shit. All I know is that I haven't felt safe to post the really vulnerable stuff I want to post for a while now, and all my replies to others have been coming from an angle of accommodating a previous reply I just couldn't digest.

Yep. For goodness sake, please don't think I'm attacking anyone, criticising anyone - or taking offence. I really appreciate the efforts you guys have put into -erm, handling me ... and it is all, without exception, valuable to me.

I recognise that my manner is a little too confrontational, at times, for the way this thread runs. I apologise.

It may be because of my experiences in group therapy, which were very challenging (not all groups are like that, by the way, just the ones I was in!) Since I find it useful, I probably have adopted a 'challenge' model without realising how others could find it aggressive.

By challenging me, you've alerted me to a few things I need to examine more closely and address. I do know it's been a big effort for some of you. I'd like you to know it's been really helpful.

Me, me, me !

I will keep reading, but keep my mouth shut (fingers still) until I'm more in tune

Bop - emailed.

Grace, something Bop said seems to stand out for me - something like, you might give the impression that you think people should question whether the people who hurt them are really that bad, because this is actually a battle you are having with yourself? Are you trying your hardest to believe that what happened to you wasn't that bad and the people who did it weren't that bad? I could be talking bollocks so just ignore me if I am

I'm also thinking about what people have said about is it really wrong to make strong judgements. In lots of cases we should look at all angles but I do agree that if someone abuses children then they are an awful person. I see this as a black and white issue definitely. If one of us did one of the bad things that were done to us we would feel like we were absolute crap wouldn't we?

But now something else has popped into my head - what if they didn't do it on purpose and knowingly. What if they would never have intentionally tried to hurt you. What if they didn't really realise what effect their behaviour would have? (This is how I see my parents.)

Also, if someone has been abusive but now they are doing everything they can to make amends and change - this is another thing, and I would see a person who did this as being strong rather than awful. (I know that most of the abusive people talked about on here are not trying to make amends.)

Even if you come to a conclusion that your abuser wasn't/isn't 'that bad' for whatever reasons, I still think that you need to have a period of thinking they are absolutely awful and feeling all your anger towards them before you can recover fully. I have a feeling this is why my therapist encouraged me to see my brother as being so bad and encouraged me to be angry with him and hate him and detach from him. I have started feeling better since I had a period of hating him and seeing him as being absolutely awful. I don't think I would feel as 'recovered' if I hadn't had this phase.

I think that thinking about how people aren't totally bad before you have processed your bad feelings about them is not helpful to people at all. You need to think of them as really fucking awful and feel the full force of how awful they made you feel and then process those feelings before you can feel better.

I must say, all the views on here lately are scrambling my brain, it really can be a headfuck.

Maybe it would help to think that whether or not 'logic' would 'measure' an abuser as being completely bad, mostly bad or only partially bad, one FEELS that their abuser is a complete 100% bastard, and you might feel differently once you have processed your feelings, or you might not, but that is how you FEEL right now.

Personally I feel that all the people who have made all of you feel so bad and in a lasting way are BASTARDS, (whether or not they are logically totally bad in a scientifically measurable way), I feel for you and feel angry with them on your behalf.

Hi I am back. I think BOP you hit the nail on the head when you described the thread as becoming a bit of a battleground. I can't even put my finger on it directly, but the tone of the thread has changed.

Like you I find it amazing that the thread seemed to maintain that delicate balance for so long. It has been a life changing thing for me and I will never forget when a few of you posted and said that you found the fact that I called my Grandmother 'mum' a bit wierd. That was a turning point because I had felt that in myself for a long time. Maybe if she had been a good mother figure it would have felt more natural but it certainly doesn't now and hasn't since I left home really. You were the only people in my whole life who had articulated what I felt and given me the courage to question it.

Yes I have a therapist and he is great but there are some things I can't even express to him. I remember WTSA once posted that she wished her parents were dead. What a relief I felt because I too feel like that at times and thought I was the most wicked, evil person to even think it.

So my life has changed/is changing. I have finally stood up to my bullying adoptive father and started calling my Grandmother by her proper title (although she doesn't even deserve that one). I have a better relationship with my aunty and have met my grandfather for the first time. I eat normally and properly and look after myself as I no longer hear that bullying voice in my head telling me I am fat and worthless. I am a better mother to my own children.

And that is in part thanks to you guys. I really hope this thread continues as I would miss you all

Please don't step down Bop. I thank you so much for supporting me when I was upset (and WTSA). You are right that the tone of the thread has changed so please don't feel it is because of your issues. I am okay now, I just felt I was getting into a bit of an argument and that is not supposed to be the tone of the thread so I stepped back and mulled on it for a while.

Grace - I am not scapegoating you. I just found some of your posts a bit confrontational.

OrdinarySAHM - Your last post made a lot of sense to me. I do feel angry towards my adoptive parents but I also understand that they are products of their own dysfunctional childhood. It means it is not my fault and I couldn't have changed things by being a different person.

Hi have been away all week with work, so have not been able to post and have only just logged on and read the last couple of posts.
I dont know what has been happening and so I dont want to comment until I have read back from where I left off.
I am really sorry that some of you seem to be experiencing discomfort from posting on this thread.
Just wanted to let you all know I was still around and hadn't just buggered off or kept out of recent postings. x

Rose am so glad you're back although everything seems to have changed in a short space of time.

Bop, you have said it all. I don't feel there is anything to add.

I'm not sure where we go from here as I also feel wary of posting about some of my 'stuff' on here now in a way I never felt wary before.

Hi everybody - I just wanted to add that I have been a regular poster on MN for donkeys years and I have never known what the stately homes threads were all about!!!

The new thread title is fab - definitely one you should recycle!

I could contribute to this thread myself - long story of childhood misery because my brother bullied me physically and emotionally for years, my mother favours him over me etc etc - but tbh Im in the mood for watching some tacky tv tonight after a long day!
It is fantastic that so many of you find this thread helpful though - I hope it continues to be a place of solace and help

Thanks for listening to my story folks, it has really helped me to read through yours, like others had not known what the statley homes was either until the new thread.

Well I started therapy today, feel better that I have started to move on from all of the conditioning as a child, to a bright new future x

Having read the thread a bit more I now realise that recently it hasnt been quite as helpful as it once was - that is a shame if so