'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

It is inevitable that some posters will have a opposing 'opinions' to our own The difficulty is it is always going to be that fine balance between expressing opinions and providing support. the focus of the thread, I always felt, was on providing support rather than giving opinions about our own beliefs.
The subject matter is so raw and lets face it most of us on here have had our own views negated for most of our lives so that if it became about challenging each others decisions and thus underlying opinion then yes the thread would disolve into a battleground. And then disolve.
The other difficulty of course is that we are all walking a path toward recovery/ elightenment but all of us are at different stages. One thing I do feel strongly about is that when a poster is distressed it is very important that the replies are carefully worded so there is a cohesive feeling of support. the focus has to be on 'that' poster and what they are feeling and not on the viewpoint they are expressing.
So for example when Koala posted, it was becauses she needed support in dealing with her 4 year old who wanted to see her GM- she had already made her decision to go NC, so I dont think challenging that decision is helpful (and I am not by any means aimimg this at you grace).
Due to the nature of the thread many posters understand only too well how just how painful a decision such as this one is. It is never a decision that is taken lightly. In the same light if someone chooses 'not' to cut their mothers/abusers out of their lives that is a decision to be respected and the posters should offer support for the many problems that arise from 'whichever' decision has been made wrt contact. The problems are often to do with gcs, guilt and opinions expressed by those in RL as well as the behaviour of the the parent/abuser wether they are in contact or not.
The second part of this post I keep writing and re-writing because it is so difficult to express any further opinion currently without feeling as though I am alienating somebody and the last thing I want to do is alienate any of you because everyone here brings so much value to the thread. So I think I will ponder some more. But lets keep communicating about this feedback on what I've just written would be much appreciated. A

Sorry the random A at the end is a typo.

just wanted to add that I also see it that I am able to learn from other posters on here who are further along in the process than me but that also works the other way around too.
So I can lend support to another person who is stuck or finding it tough.
But support doesnt necessarily mean offering direction.
I may well be in a different part of the process to someone else but I can still remember what it felt like to be at the beginning. No-one can skip part of the process just because somebody else has pointed out that the view is different from where they are now standing. There are no shortcuts. Just as OSAHM said you have to feel the rage and the anger first to get to the other side. Other wise you will be cheating your own recovery.
In other words by saying 'Come and stand over here with me...you will see more clearly and the view will make you feel so much better, you may think it is helpful but that person will only feel cheated in the long run or angry you haven't appreciated what there landscape looks like for them right now.
It's not my job (or at least this is my view) to push anyone further along. Hopefully it is enough to make someone feel they are not alone or isolated in how they are feeling and reassure them that things will get better beacuse you have stood right where they are and you can close your eyes and remember the pain of it.
A big part of childhood abuse is that certain feelings were never expressed because it wasn't safe to express them. A big part of recovery is being able to express those feelings now. If there are too many judgments given on the thread people may well shy away from free expression of those previoulsy suppressed emotions.
That's a long winded way of saying I shouldnt be trying to 'fix' things for people on here because that would be about my needs and not about theirs. I have to stop myself sometimes because I am one of life's fixers. There is a lesson in everything isnt there.

Nice post, Smithfield

grace thankyou for that. How are you doing? Do you still feel like running? I hope not I really do.

Thank you, Smithfield! By a (probably) lucky coincidence, I've agreed with my therapist that I won't spend any more time on problem threads in forums for a few weeks ... I suspect I'll get a heck of a lot more done in RL this way!

Thanks for everything. xx

grace- I know you may not get to read this and if you do you are very naughty but I think your therapist is probably right you know.
I think sometimes this stuff can get addictive and becomes another way of burying bad feelings.
I was thinking along similar lines myself actually. About myself that is.
Good luck with it all though grace, cat me at some point and let me know how the therapy is going. x

(therealsmith, I'm only lurking on this thread, but I just wanted to say that was a fantastic post at 10.38. It is really applicable to all the threads on here urging women to leave abusive partners. Some posters get impatient but you capture beautifully why they're not ready before they're ready. Only you said it better).

nicknametaken - thankyou very kind of you to take the time to post and say so x

Yes, and you can all tell Im considering taken a break from this forum....[whilst clicking on and off during cooking my spag bol] Arrrggh!

I'm not sure if it's because I'm expecting a baby and have raging hormones or whether it's because I've been posting on this thread on behalf of my DH and reading other people's stories that has brought things to the surface again, maybe it's a little of both. I find myself becoming increasingly more and more angry/irritated by my mother.

The thing is I'd supposedly had all this buried. I'd come to terms with the way my mother is and had just decided that that was the way she is, she will never change and to just get on with it. So why I'm letting her get to me I just don't know.

I have always felt that my mother feeds off others crisis', turning it around to gain attention for herself. For the first 16 weeks of my pregnancy I suffered with severe Hyperemesis, I had a very sensitive sense of smell too which made it impossible for me to be downstairs in my house as to me, there was a horrendous smell . To me it was so bad that even the thought of it would make me sick let alone actually smelling it. I stayed upstairs in bed for over 8 weeks. During this time my mother was doing her best to act like the oh so caring mother of a sick pregnant daughter.

It's a shame she had to ruin it by phoning me and telling me that there was no smell downstairs because she couldn't smell anything and that I'd 'have to get out of bed and go downstairs sometime'. I wasn't in bed just because of a smell downstairs I was in bed because I couldn't hold food or drink down for more than a few minutes, felt like death warmed up and was on anti sickness tablets which used to knock me out for the count.

I vaguely remember in the same phonecall her telling me she would hire a carpet cleaner and come around and scrub the house (even though she new DH had already done this). Also everything in my kitchen had to go including my big pot plant because that was what was making it smell (hang on mother I thought it didn't smell!!). None of this ever materialised.

My mother works in a shop and a couple of weeks ago DS and I went in, my mother was not working that day but her boss made a curious comment to me. "Mampam I don't think your marriage would have survived if you'd spent the whole nine months in bed". My mother has a nice habit of making things up about me that just aren't true. 2 weeks after DD was born she tried to make out to everyone that I had PND, she even told my then MIL that I was 'gone in the head' and when then MIL said 'she seems ok to me' told her that I was 'putting on an act'.

Since the sickness has worn off and I have been upwardly mobile again I have discovered I am suffering from SPD quite badly. I don't think this sounds as dramatic to other people as the sickness because now she seems to have lost interest.

I've been told by my consultant that if I give birth naturally that I could be at risk of another 3rd degree tear. If this happens I will more than likely be incontinent (from the rear end). My mothers reply to this is that "all these doctors want you have a caesarian these days, it's just what they do. You won't be able to do anything for 6 weeks or drive you know".

The thing that has really got me going about her lately though is that last week my teenage niece spent several days in hospital with suspected meningitis. My mother loved this, playing the oh so caring GM. Everytime I spoke to her on the phone she would tell me about 25 times about my niece having to have 'antibiotics given to her through a drip that goes in through her hand'. Selfishly all I could think was 'if you'd bothered to come and see me when I was in hospital last year you would have known that I too was being given antibiotics through a drip in my hand!!'.

I know she's only taken an interest in me since I've been pregnant because she 'only lives for her grandchildren'. It's probably true because she makes a much better GM than she ever did a mother.

I just wish I could get my feelings of resentment/anger/irritation for her back under control.

This is going to sound pretty dumb I reckon but I had some thoughts the other day.

It was about my anxiety. I feel that anxiety holds me back a bit because I'm scared about doing things that lots of normal people do all the time. I do make myself do them but I would like this not to be a massive effort and stress for me. When I do the thing, it is never as bad as I thought and often I really enjoy it.

I am trying to learn from this - that it is never as bad as I think - but this doesn't seem to be enough, but I did have some thoughts that seemed to make me feel a bit better the other day. I thought 'normal' people do things like x all the time and they don't worry about it and get really stressed like I do. That must mean that it is not a dangerous thing, I am just 'deluded' that it is. I am no less intelligent/capable than them. (I always turn out to be perfectly capable at the thing I thought I just couldn't do.)

When I say I'm deluded - maybe that is the wrong word - I mean I think that everything is going to be a horrible painful nightmare all the time, but I think this is just a habitual way of thinking from my childhood when I did find a lot of my time to be horrible and difficult. I have a fear that it is going to come back - the same intensity of horrible feeling, and that if I even suffer a little bit, the whole thing might descend on me and engulf me again.

This makes me scared to do some things and makes me intolerant of any suffering at all. If things don't go completely the way I want I whinge like hell! I even get anxious and depressed in the mornings that I can't 'do' getting up and facing the day because it might be really awful. It never is though! I am NOT living the life I was in before! Part of me must be not totally believing that yet though!

I'm just realising life doesn't HAVE to be really hard and stressful and it isn't the normal thing for normal people to have a really horrible life all the time. My life is really nice now yet I still feel anxious that it will go back horrible again. It is irrational.

Maybe recognising these things each time I feel it and realising it is not realistic for my life now will help me gradually feel less anxious. I'm better than I used to be but I think it is going to be quite a gradual thing for me to learn.

I feel I am taking a bit of a risk in posting on here again. I have thought about whether I feel comfortable in doing so. I don't feel entirely comfortable. But on the other hand I think I am feeling more confident about speaking out if a post comes across as judgmental or accusatory or not in keeping with the unwritten rules of this thread in some way. So perhaps something good has come out of Spikygate and Gracegate. I appreciate that neither Spiky nor Grace had any intention to cause upset, but I think they also failed to appreciate that people on this thread are very vulnerable and often lacking in the confidence and self esteem to be able to stand up for themselves.

mampam, thank you for posting. It was reading your post that brought me back to the whole purpose of this thread. I had almost forgotten it because of all the recent upsets. In relation to your feelings about your mother, yes,it is perhaps because you are pregnant and more hormonal and emotional as a result, that your feelings about her are surfacing again. I have found that my emotions about my childhood issues seem to rise to the surface more at a certain time of the month and I am sure that hormones do have a lot to do with it. But I don't think that means that those emotions are not really 'valid' simply because they have been stirred up by raging hormones.

Wrt triggers, I have noticed a lot more that there are so many small and subtle things in everyday life that seem to be triggering me at a subconscious level. This is in contrast to when I was frequently being triggered by DD and DH. In the latter cases the triggers seemed much 'bigger' and more powerful and more immediate. The small everyday triggers are much more subtle and seem to gradually build up at a subconscious level, until they reach a point where I am consciously aware of feeling angry, short tempered, unusually impatient with the DC's. It is at this point, where the anger starts spilling out onto innocent people that I realise i need to take a step back and work out why I am feeling angry. I know already that the rightful target of my anger should be my parents/sisters. But I sometimes take a while to work out what exactly I am feeling angry about.

You say you wish you could get your angry feelings about your mother back under control. Are you saying this because you feel you do not have a way of safely feeling your anger? ie you do not want to get angry at innocent people and I presume you cannot in RL get truly angry at your mother and rage at her and tell her what you really think and feel about her, and so you try and control your anger and keep it locked away inside you. I just wanted to say that I totally understand you wanting to control your anger and not let it out, but it actually needs to be released. If you keep it locked away it will not obediently lie dormant inside you, it will constantly clamour to be let out. There are safe ways of feeling and letting out your anger. The classic tried and tested way is to write a no holds barred letter to your mother which will not be sent but which will provide you with an outlet whereby you can rage and shout at your mother and tell her what you really think of her and how she has made you feel. Or you can find somewhere private where you can scream and shout and punch a pillow and get your feelings out that way.

I have got a small baseball bat which i bought a while ago and haven't used for some time. But I, like you, have also recently been feeling the rage rise up inside me again at my parents. I know it is as a result of buried feelings being triggered by various things in everyday life and rising to the surface into my conscious mind.

I was listening to a radio discussion the other day about people who have committed crimes against other people. I find it incredible really that most people will readily be outraged if an adult assaults another adult. And yet if a parent assaults his child it seems to be less clear cut. People sometimes think it is ok to hit a child, they think the child must have done something wrong and deserves to be hit. Or somehow that children do not feel the effects of being physically or verbally assaulted as much as an adult and it is somehow therefore less of a crime to treat a child this way or perhaps not even a crime at all.

I am speaking from a very personal pov in what I have just said. I always got the feeling from my parents both as a child and now, that I was somehow immune to the effects of my dad's verbal and psychological assaults and cruelty towards me. He himself seemed to feel better, happier, after he had had a major verbal blow out at me and seemed able to be quite nice and kind again for a while at least. I know he used to think that even though yesterday he had had a huge verbal and emotional blow out onto me, now that today he felt so much better and no longer angry, I should somehow also be feeling good too. So I guess what I am trying to say in my rambling way is that I am angry that he clearly never gave a moment's thought as to how being verbally assaulted and attacked by her father would have affected a 10 year old girl. He clearly seemed to think because he felt good the next day I should also feel good and he used to get annoyed with me for not appreciating him being nice. If he had stopped to think about me for one second, surely he would have worked out why I was not responding to his niceness the next day. I was of course still hurt and shocked and terrified from being attacked and assulted the previous day. I feel the sheer thoughtlessness and selfishness of my dad is only striking me now. That he could honestly think that there would be no effect on me the next day of being shouted at, verbally attacked with vile, disgusting language. No wonder he seems so surprised that his abuse is still affecting me 30 years later, he didn't even realise that it would affect me the next day after it happened when i wss a child. How can somebody be so utterly and completely oblivious to another persons feelings and the effect their own words and actions can have on another person? I don't think my dad was completely oblivious. I think he simply did not care. He felt a need to get his anger out and simply could not care less whether he was directing it towards the rightful person or an innocent scapegoat. All he cared about were his own feelings. He felt much better after getting his anger out and so he just made sure he vented it and couldn't care less how much damage and harm he caused. Not even afterwards when he himself felt better. That would have been an opportunity for him to reflect on what he had done the previous day and realise he had been wrong and feel some remorse and even perhaps apologised. But I know this is probably how an even half way healthy person would think and feel. My dad is severely mentally ill and not in the least bit healthy so i know he would never behave in a healthy way. But that does not stop me needing and wanting him, even now to behave in a healthy way and even now he could reflect and realise he had treated me so very badly many years ago and even now he could write to me and apologise. I know this is wishful thinking and it is very unlikely to happen. But it doesn't stop me from wanting it to happen.

I heard a psychologist talking about forgiveness. About how forgiving is an important factor in allowing us to move on. But, she said to be able to forgive, we often need the person who has done wrong to first acknowledge and recognise the wrong they have done and to say sorry. This act on their part enables us to forgive and 'forget' in the sense of putting the wrong in the past and moving on and moving forward.

I feel angry that by failing to acknowledge and recognise the wrongs they did to me as a child, my parents are making it that much harder for me to move on and look forward. If they did not come forward snd recognise what they did as wrong and apologise, i feel i could finally put it all behind me. It wouldn't make any difference to how i feel about them, but it would make a difference as to how I feel inside about myself. I would not feel as i do now that they have done wrong and got away with it. I would feel that justice had been done. That it was not just me feeling the effects of their abuse and neglect, but that they were feeling the effects too. I think justice would be served if they had on their conscience just how much they had hurt and let down and failed me, their child, who had done nothing at all to deserve to be treated with such little or no regard for my feelings and no thought about my needs.

Am sorry for such a long ramble, just needed to get my thoughts out. Thanks to anyone who has read this far.

OSAHM, hi, am glad you are still posting. Could you be more specific about the sort of things you feel anxious about doing? Is it everyday stuff or something more than that?

I think you know where your anxiety stems from. It was a way of life for you as a child, a valid and understandable feeling because as a child, bad things were likely to happen to you perhaps every day . I feel you recognise this but are somehow stuck as to how to really believe you are no longer that child and no longer living the life you were then. Does that make any sense?

...if my parents did come forward and recognise..

wtsaf it's good that you feel you can post here again. Sometimes I think you can become too heavily involved in threads and taking a break helps you gain some perspective. It is increasingly frustrating when you are trying to get a specific point across and others just aren't getting that point and I'm assuming that Grace felt frustrated too as she thought she could help but you weren't seeing things from her point of view. I may be wrong so feel free to shoot me if I am!!
I think it's as Smithfield pointed out, we are all entitled to post our feelings as they are valuable to the individual but don't necessarily want others opinions thrust on us. I think we can all learn a lesson from this.

I agree it can be very hard to move on/forward until there is some recognision of the wrong doing that others have inflicted on you. Sometimes you need a new approach (easier said than done I know). In DH's case he has realised he will never get a sincere apology from his parents, so he has 2 choices: Get in contact on polite terms with his parents for appearances sake to keep others off his back or ignore them and be hounded forever by other members of his family to get in contact with them.

I think you make a very good point in your post, why would your father recognise now what he did to you all those years ago when he was too selfish to realise how it even affected you back then.

OSAHM I too suffer with severe anxiety/panic attacks (had it under control until FIL verbally attacked me about 3 years ago, can't quite get it back under wraps ever since) and it's absolutely debilitating.

WTSA you have summed up my post in a few sentences when it took me a whole page Thank you though, because you have made me feel you understand what I wrote and that it isn't deranged ramblings

It is everyday things I am anxious about. A few examples would be -

Going to the children's sports day/carol service etc;

Taking the children to the doctors;

Driving somewhere I can't visualise exactly how to get there, even if I have clear and simple directions and it is local;

Having someone I don't know well round, eg the boiler man or the builders;

Organising the children's birthday parties (that makes me REALLY stressed);

Taking the cat to the vet;

Doing any little chore which is not one of the regular ones;

The car going wrong in any way (makes me nearly panic);

Any change to my weekly routine because of any kind of upheaval or any unforeseen little problems;

The thought of getting a job after I haven't worked for a while. I don't actually want one at the moment and we don't need extra money, but the thought that what if I need to get one sometime and what if I just can't do it, makes me feel anxious;

The thought of anyone getting angry/annoyed/irritated by me (this is a BIG one);

There are probably loads more, but you can see that these are boring little everyday things and you can see that I'm being 'pathetic'. I feel far more stressed far more of the time than I need to and it wears me out!

Mampam, thank you for saying you recognise how much anxiety spoils your life as sometimes I feel I am just being really stupid and 'mad'.

You are not stupid at all. I suffer myself and the feeling are VERY real and very distressing.

I get the whole anxiety thing too. This is what makes it so difficult to function in the workplace. Well, anywhere come to think of it (remember my posts when I first started the school run).
I have times when I am better and times when I am worse but it is absolutely debilitating.
I especially suffer from anxiety when I have to produce something like reports, essays on courses. I end up walking away from things because it becomes unbearable and I dont want to lose face. So I shrug it off and say I dont really care. But I do of course.
I do try and tell myself everyone gets anxious, but some people let the anxiety take over, like me. Makes me feel more normal I guess.
There was a very interesting article on this in the Daily Mail all last week.

mampam- I get totally where you are coming from with this and I do think pg is a huge trigger. I dont know why but for me I think it was because pregnancy brought to the surface a supressed longing for a real 'mother'. Except it wasnt my mother but the picture I had in my head of what she should have been. Caring, nurturing. That is what I craved when I was pregnant, but all I got instead was more of my mothers me me me. Yet again she blocked my 'right to be needy', because she has to be the centre of the universe at all costs. So all those times I'd felt that as a child shot to the surface too. It was like a simmering pot boiling over.
The hormones Im guessing just heightened the , it was always there though. To an extent it always will be I think.
I think knowing you will not get what you need from your mum helps (which can involve process of grieving in itself) as does aknowledging where the anger comes from. Im not sure I was fully aware where mine came from until the end of my second pg. So you are ahead of the game already .
I use running and excercise 'now' (very recent thing) to get rid of some of the anger- Which interestingly helps my stress levels too. But that wont be any good to you right now . You poor thing, was quite ill with my second, it's rotten isnt it. x

OSAHM You are right, you are no more or less capable than 'normal' people. 'Normal' people get nervous/stressed about things just as you do but they cope with it in a different way to someone with stress anxiety.

'I think that everything is going to be a horrible painful nightmare all the time, but I think this is just a habitual way of thinking from my childhood when I did find a lot of my time to be horrible and difficult'

That is precisely it, a lot of anxiety is habitual behaviour, pre-empting something that you assume will happen and not being able to deal with the stress of those thoughts. The trick is to train your brain not to think about those habitual thoughts or to think about them in a different way.

After years of me suffering with anxiety, mainly convincing myself I was going to die of some horrible disease my GP sent me to have CBT. I thought there was no hope for me but this really worked, I'm not 100% perfect but I'm so much better able to cope with it now, maybe it could work for you too?

OSAHM, I couldn't cope with the thought of going to the doctors, I used to sit in the waiting room and have panic attacks. Sometimes I'd feel so frightened about doing things I always did, I felt I couldn't breathe. Sounds so silly but it's like living in a nightmare for someone who suffers with anxiety.

OSAHM, if your post is deranged rambling then so is mine! Am glad I have helped you in some way.

I too get anxious about many of the things on your list. Is that because we both had difficult childhoods or do other mothers also get anxious about these things? How anxious do you get? I would rate my anxiety about eg taking the DC's to the doctors, as mild to moderate, unpleasant but not paralysing. In my case my anxiety I realise stems from lack of confidence about interactions with 'new' and/or 'unfamiliar' people and in large groups. I notice other people seem very at ease in social situations, can easily do small talk and banter, without sounding stupid or putting their foot in it. I realise I often try to imitate such people but do it very badly as it just does not come naturally. I think that is what makes me anxious about these things. I have noticed I am absolutely fine if meeting a group of friends I know well or am meeting somebody on a one to one basis. Otherwise i get anxious and tense and am glad when the 'thing' is over. I don't really know if and how this may stem back to my childhood. Need to think a bit more about that.

Wrt your anxiety, again can you be even more specific. Eg.what makes you anxious about taking the children to the doctors or the cat to the vet?

mampam thanks for your post. I agree smithfield's post was very good, about how we are all on a very individual journey and others who are further ahead are not really helping those who are not there yet by telling them to skip a part of their journey just because they can see how good the view is from where they are. The key I think is recognising that we are all on a journey, that much we have in common, but we are all on our own, very individual journey, going at our own pace and through our own twists and turns and I personally think it is very disrespectful towards another person to try and tell them they are going the wrong way when they are on a different path altogether and one that the other person has not trodden at all.

However I do think some good has come out of all of this. I feel more confident about speaking out if I feel somebody has posted something potentially harmful and hurtful to another poster. I have been concerned about Koala who was struggling about what to do wrt to her mother, with whom she wanted to cut ties, but to whom her 4 year old daughter had established a relationship. It was obvious she was in a difficult and vulnerable position, feeling every option had it's pitfalls. But nevertheless I could 'sense' from her post that her tentative decision to cut ties with her mother was what she needed to do in order to preserve her own well being and I felt it was a sign of her own recovery that she felt able to take such a very hard step, particularly in light of the impact it would have on her own daughter. I think Grace failed to think about any of this, perhaps the fact she does not have children herself may be why she failed to understand Koala's position, but she nevertheless strode in voicing her own opinion about Koala's decision and criticising her when she herself could not possibly have even the slightest idea of what Koala was going through. Even if she did have an idea of what Koala was going through it was very insensetive and inconsiderate of her to tell Koala she was taking a wrong turn when she has no real idea where Koala has come from nor where she is going to.

I think this whole thing has bothered me a lot because Grace and Spiky have reminded me strongly about the reactions of people in RL when you talk to them about these issues, people who have no understanding at all of our experience and who therefore often react in judgmental and un-empathetic ways. It was very disconcerting to see those same sorts of views being voiced on this thread.

However I hope a lesson has been learned by us all by this; for myself in learning to trust my gut instinct that something is not right and feeling confident enough to speak out if somebody has posted something I do not feel is appropriate for this thread. I think it has improved my confidence to speak out in RL too when somebody speaks to me disrespectfully so I am grateful for that. I think Bop and Rose standing up for me, the first time anybody has ever stood up for me, has given me the confidence to stand up more for myself.

Smithfield yes my hormones are obviously heightened. I think it's that and the fact that she has taken a sudden interest in me just because of the baby. That's what it feels like anyway.

I think I have to go into self preservation mode again, I've obviously let my guard down recently.

I'm not going to phone her, I'll leave it til she phones me and I'm certainly not mentioning anything to do with me having a caesarian. The week before it's due I'll let her know then.

WTSA - your post at 14:18 resonated with me

The triggers - I am now realising that I too get triggered and I need to work harder to recognise those triggers and look after myself when they happen. All too often I feel I am being triggered but not recognising the signs. Then this rage suddenly creeps up on me and I either lose it with the kids or my DH. Or I just get irritable with people who have done nothing wrong really. I might focus on unintentional bad things they have said and done and get disproportionatley angry at them. What are my triggers? I know one big one is when my SIL comes to stay with my MIL with her children. I feel angry and resentful. I know it is because I feel jealous of their relationship. They have the mother/daughter thing which I never had. I like my SIL and get on with her but I feel she is selfish in her demands on my MIL. However this is my issue and my trigger. She is just asking her mum for help and my MIL obliges because she is a normal and loving mother.

Other triggers can be small. My DS (who looks so much like me) sometimes or anniversaries. If I am struggling with the day-to-day stresses of motherhood and I have no mother of my own to turn to.

The abuse - WTSA I really think your Dad sounds like a narcissist. The unpredictable rages are classic. When you said that the next day he would expect you to feel fine because he felt fine, I really feel it is because he didn't see you as a seperate individual with seperate feelings. You were an extension of him. His punchbag, his scapegoat to project all his vile feelings about himself onto. My adoptive father was very much like this. After a rage when he had beaten me verbally and emotionally a kind of empty peace would come over him. I can't describe it that well in words, it is quite eerie. Like you said no guilt or remorse. He would look satisfied and calm like the stillness you get after a violent thunderstorm.

You said "how can somebody be so utterly and completely oblivious to another person's feelings and the effects their own words and actions can have on another person?"

I think it is because they have no concept of 'other person'. My adoptive father still maintains that 'fat cow' and 'fake and phoney' were words of encouragement. He sees it that way so how can it be any different? To a narcissist feelings only exist in relation to oneself, either as an extension of their own, or a way to manipulate someone to meet their needs.

Forgiveness - You hit the nail on the head! Someone has to admit they did wrong to be forgiven in my eyes. My counsellor was hinting at forgiveness today and I am beginning to think I have reached the end of the road with him. I don't want to forgive, not yet anyway, if ever.

There is little point forgiving a narcissist a feel. They don't think and feel like normal humans. The concept of forgiveness suggests progression, change and hope. These concepts are lost with a narcissist. They cannot progress, they cannot change and the only thing worth hoping for is that you get out/got out before they damage you for good. It will always be about them, end of.

Finally WTSA they have not done wrong and got away with it. They are damaged people withot the insight to change. They have lost a daughter and two beautiful grandchildren. They may not have the ability to feel that loss but that makes it all the more bitter for them. They are dead inside and the price they pay is life and love

OrdinarySAHM - ah the anxiety! Bain of my life

Some of your triggers made me think. I too get anxious when organising my DS birthday party and when something out of the normal routine happens.

My anxiety was at its worse when DS was born and it got so bad that I was having frequent attacks of colic and diarrhoea. I couldn't sleep properly and I ate compulsively so piled on the weight. It is horrible but I feel I can manage it more now (and that is largely because I have less contact with my adoptive parents).