'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Rose just wanted to say that your MIL cannot possibly judge whether you are being harsh towards your GP. Because she is not you and she has not been through what you have been through. She is not entitled to make any judgment about your whatsoever. I am sure her comments have thrown you off balance perhaps because you would not expect her to say such a thing, because you have always thought she is on your side.

As long as you are doing what you know to be the right and healthy thing for you, you have no need to feel confused and unsure of yourself. And only you know what is right for you, NOBODY else and nobody else has any right to judge you or your choices.

Thanks WTSA - I think she is largely on my side and that it was just an insensitive comment. I think she meant more that it is sad that they are so damaged and dysfunctional that they have ruined the most important relationships in their lives. And she is right, it is sad and tragic in fact. But it is not down to me to feel sorry for them or 'fix' them. I repeat that it was insensitive of her to say this. She has always tried to see everyone's point of view in any situation and in some ways I admire her for that but sometimes it is infuriating because she won't defend people but will sit on the fence. I think it is difficult for her because I 'tone down' what I say about them to some extent although I am opening up more now. She will be worried about saying anything too 'strong' about them and then if I reconcile with them she has said the wrong things

But like you said, I want someone who will defend me to the hilt. Who will believe me wholeheartedly and empathise with me. My DH has been very supportive but sometimes I feel even he doesn't get it fully. He once made an insensitive comment about 'real' abuse i.e. sexual and physical abuse as if emotional abuse wasn't quite the same thing. But then am I expecting too much of people who can't possibly know what it is like? My MIL/DH did have good mothers and unconditional love.

I just feel so negative about everyone at the moment and I feel this is my frame of mind and not them.

My MIL once said I have every right to feel angry at my parents but I wish she would just stick her neck out a bit more and say that she thinks they have been awful parents. She will suggest that they have done a good job bringing me up because I am a nice person and this infuriates me too (and DH I have to say as he can't stand my parents).

I am just writing down my stream of consciousness at the moment in the hope that getting these darker thoughts out in the open will help me.

Why as a society are we so crap at speaking out against such people?

Rose, she can't say that about your parents because she has healthy boundaries.

It is interfering and insulting to slag off someone else's parents! In fact, to call anybody an 'awful' anything is too judgemental. You can say they're awful parents because you're speaking from your own perspective. But you can't reasonably say, for example, my dentist is an awful dentist even if I've told you he made some mistakes. You're not qualified to judge my dentist, and MIL isn't qualified to judge your parents.

.. This is where I find out you're a dental Head Honcho and you actually are the person qualified to judge my dentist!!!

Rose, sorry to hear you're going through such a dark time. These periods happen, I think - it doesn't mean the previous good stuff wasn't real and good, it just means there's another layer to get through now iyswim? And it doesn't mean you've got it "wrong" either. There's an awful lot of grief and stuff to process and now you're doing another batch probably. And then there's the fact that motherhood CAN be a lot of drudgery and endless chores for any mother, dealing with this stuff or not! Someone else said recently that even mothers who aren't recovering from abuse find it hard, nigh on impossible sometimes, so maybe it helps to remember that and cut ourselves some slack - we're doing a really hard (however incredibly worthwhile!) job and we're having to take care of our own stuff too, it is not easy. I would suggest just accepting the feelings if you can, and if it helps, remember that you are very definitely not alone in feeling like that.

I totally get what you and WTSA are saying about wanting someone who is totally on your side. I think we all long for that. And I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone who says they love and care about you to really get what you went through, I know what you mean about that pain when they don't really get it somehow even while appearing to understand the bare bones of it. But I think given the way people are and the way life is, unfortunately it's just not very likely to happen except with other people who have been through similar stuff. Most people I think just don't have the empathy or the courage to stick themselves out there and say "yes, I get it - in this world we live in, parents can be THAT bad, they can make their children's lives THAT awful" - because it's not a nice place to go to, really, is it?

My DH has gradually got it more and more over the time we've been together, but I don't want to make him my therapist or drag him too far down into the emotional morass because at the end of the day I need him to be a "yang" functioning man who goes out to work and provides for his family - we have a mortgage to pay and I'm not bringing home any money while DS is so small so it's pretty essential, and if he really really REALLY got it on the level I do, HE would want to lie in bed crying too and I don't want him to do that!!!

I do feel that the one person in RL I do get that unconditional support and understanding from is my amazing therapist. She totally totally totally gets it and gets me and is unequivocally and uncondtionally on my side. That changed my life in itself, having someone absolutely 100% behind me, even though obviously it is a professional relationship and I pay her, it is also a very special relationahip. As I've said before, it took me about 12 years of actively looking and working with a variety of other counsellors, therapists, and healers to even find her, and I've been working with her for nearly 9 years now - I can honestly say that in those previous 12 years I put in just as much energy and commitment as I do now to the process, but I stayed essentially stuck; whereas in the 9 years I've worked with her I've completely turned my life around and continue to do so.

So that's my tip for those looking for a counsellor or whoever - if you feel this person really gets you and is really on your side, that's a very, very good sign!

Very good points from all of you. I do think if I had a DIL with shitty parents I would find it hard to speak out openly against them, even given my background. Its funny because my MIL will speak out against other people's parents to me, so who knows what she says about mine to other people IYSWIM? She maybe just feels she can't say it to my face

I do have a good counsellor and I do feel he is on my side and wants me to be happy and fulfilled. He does think my parents are damaged people and I get a sense that he understands it on some level (maybe he has been through it himself?).

But when I write it down and spell it out in black and white:

My grandmother had an affair with my grandfather's best friend whilst one of her daughters had a new baby and the other was heavily pregnant with me and only nineteen. She left my grandfather for said friend married him and my mother became mentally ill after she had me. My grandmother then adopted me along with my step-grandfather. I was encouraged to call them mum and dad whilst my mother was shut away in mental institutions. My grandfather was shut out of my life and denied access.

My step-grandfather/adoptive father bullied and emotionally abused me. He warned my biological mother to keep away from me whilst the adoption went through and pretty much frightened off my biological father, whom I have never seen. I was moved 200 miles away from my mother and grandfather and was not encouraged to talk about them.

My step-grandfather also manipulated me against my aunty, with whom I have only just started communicated. He accused them of trying to poison him and being generally bad people. I would like to add that me and my cousins were directly manipulated not to talk about my grandfather thus let down by the adults around us

As a result my mother's illness was made worse and she ended up dead at the age of 39 from a suspected overdose. I have letters written to me from her, in which she breaks her heart about her love for me. She was let down my her mother who is a lier and a narcissist.

On what level is it not right to judge these people as awful?

hear hear, Rose.

I mean if I wrote that story in big fucking letters on a billboard and anyone was free to read it as they passed in their car, I would hope that they didn't have to of lived through it themselves to see that these people are dysfunctional and damaging to all around them

I apologise for my angry tone but it is what I am feeling. That this was allowed to happen and because as a society we aren't allowed to judge or comment, my mother ended up seriously ill and denied a relationship with her daughter

I mean my adoptive father never waved a knife in my face but I can categorically state that I think what WTSA father did is awful and disgusting.

They are awful and manipulative because they portray to the world that they are wonderful because they took me on and brought me up and how well I have turned out. They lie, deny and gaslight until I feel I am the one going mad.

Rose, don't apologise for feeling angry. You have every right to feel angry. They are and were awful to you. In fact it's normal and healthy to feel angry at people who used you, hurt you and manipulated you for their own ends and never once thought about you and your feelings and needs, when it was their job to do so.

Grace, I have to say I'm a little puzzled by your reasoning. If I tell a friend of mine that my dentist pulled three healthy teeth unnecessarily, causing me to wear a bridge and dentures. that he botched my fillings so badly that I have permanent nerve damage, and that he performed root canal surgery without anaesthetic (not a dental specialist so forgive me if examples inaccurate!) - if I tell my friend all that and she doesn't say something along the lines of "my god, he should be struck off!" - then I would surely wonder exactly what kind of friend she was? It's about being believed, being understood, being empathised with, being validated. If she says "well, I'd have to reserve judgement on him because maybe he was doing his best and perhaps he's a really good dentist in other ways and I'm not really qualified to judge because your word alone isn't good enough for me", I'd think she was a bit bonkers, really. my response would surely be "wtf?!" But if I was feeling vulnerable about it - if we lived in a society where dental malpractice was frequent but freqently denied, and where the victim was often not believed and herself held responsible - then her response could be hurtful and damaging. It is about being believed.

It is true that as a general rule it is not acceptable to "slag off" other people's parents, in our culture. But that rule doesn't really hold good when the person involved has been victimised and abused by her parents, or parent figures, and is aware of it and wants support around it, when the person wants others to see how badly her parents failed her. Like I say, it's about being believed. We have to take other people's word for things otherwise how could we communicate? Obviously we have to choose who we believe, but if you're in a loving, supportive relationship with somebody, then I think you have the right to expect your word to be believed.

Rose, I don't know if your MIL was just being insensitive, or if she's more able to criticise other people's parents to you and not to their faces, and vice versa, maybe even worried she will offend you if she says too much? Because it is quite a taboo to criticise someone's mother/family? But the main point is that whatever it is that's going on, we DO need people to join us in recognising how awful they were and it is sod all to do with healthy boundaries when they don't. Good point about the knife waving Rose (sorry don't mean to trivialise by shortening it like that WTSA!). And no, you don't have to apologise for your anger, be proud of it and cherish it!!! They WERE awful! There was such a great wrong done there, to you and your mother and it deserves real outrage.

Bop once again you have managed to articulate what I was thinking and done it so much better than me. Alice Miller talks often in her books about how important it is for us to feel that somebody is our 'witness'. Not in the sense that they were there and saw what happened to us, but that they can see what we went through when we talk about it and they believe us. It is about our word being taken for it and being believed like you say.

Alice Miller also talks about this witness specifically not being impartial and trying to be fair to both sides and seeing both points of view etc but being totally partial and completely on the side of the child that we once were, who was so badly wronged.

Bop well done once again for speaking out when a post did not 'sit right'. Grace, I also felt something about your post did not feel right to me (although I'm sure you had good intentions) but could not quite put my finger on it and did not trust in myself enough to post about it. But like Bop has said we do need people to come off the fence and openly be unequivocally on our side. The hard part is finding somebody who is willing and able to do that.

I'm sorry I offended you all. Of course you're angry about what happened to you. I'm angry about what happened to you, and about what happened to me!

But it is unreasonable to "demand" (or have strong expectations) that a given person be your enlightened witness. That's what we have therapists - and each other - for.

Can you not see the difference between the statements "Your parents are awful!" and "What awful things your parents did to you!" ?
IMO Roseability's expecting too much for her MIL to say the former. And she does say the latter. I just think you set yourself up for a disappointment there, Rose, and are adding to your burden by feeling cross about it.

We might have to disagree on that. Again, I'm sorry to have upset you.

Message withdrawn

Grace, i wasn't offended as such, just felt what you had said didn't seem right given the particular issues that are the subject of this thread.

I am sure you mean well but your 'tone' (in so far as one's 'tone' can come across in writing) in your last post to Rose comes across to me quite harshly. I completely understand what you are saying, but it would be really good if you could phrase it in a 'softer' more 'palatable' way iykwim?

Maybe I could have phrased it better. Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say, WTSA, and thanks also, NLD.

I believe that extreme judgement on people is only appropriate in rare cases - if ever. I believe this is the 'healthy' attitude. It's interesting that the issue cropped up here just as it is being played out on the thread with the diabetic husband.

OK, my next post will be about some other issue! [runs and hides ... ]

I am not offended and thanks WTSA and BOP for your support

I suppose it links back to childhood. For example if either of my children came home from playgroup one day and told me one of the playgroup leaders had verbally or physically assaulted them, I am sorry I would not sit on the fence or reserve judgement. I would believe them instantly and defend them, because I am their mother and I love them unconditionally. No one (not even daddies, grannies etc) does and can love those children like me. I really believe that.

I missed that. My birth mother was too ill and died too young to put that love into action and my adoptive parents are very damaged people incapable of it. So I still look for it. The person who not only believes me but takes my side and has the guts to speak out about my adoptive parents. I do have a good and close relationship with my MIL and she does believe me. I absolutely do not think she is toxic. She says I am like a daughter to her and I know she is not the type of person to do or say horrible things with intention.

But she still tries to see their side sometimes and she has only met them a few times. I am sure like all abusive parents they come across as okay, if a little strange and difficult. All it takes sometimes is 'what they have done is wrong and you have every right to feel angry and keep your distance'. Why is it so difficult? I also don't believe in judging people and I don't believe people are all good/bad. I can see that a lot of the parents mentioned on this thread have been damaged by their own dysfunctional childhood. I could even feel sorry for them if I wanted to take an entirely non-judgemental and non-commital stance.

But lets for a minute imagine that everyone on this thread are children again. Hurt, bullied, manipulated and abused and desperate for someone to believe them.

I didn't know I was hurt, manipulated, abused & desperate! I just thought it was how life was ... I'm bloody glad I found out differently, though (albeit somewhat late in the day).

Iknew I was hurt, bullied and manipulated when my adoptive father told me I was a 'fat cow' a 'slut' and flew at me with his fists. I just didn't know how to approach someone about it because of our 'parents are always right' culture

That thread about the diabetic, abusive husband has really upset me . I mean that woman cannot stand back and let him do that anymore or she is also an abuser

Rose, how did you know that what your dad did was wrong? This could be really helpful. See, I just believed I was a fat cow, etc, since my dad said so. I simply thought all fathers beat up their families. If we could figure out how you knew he was behaving badly, that might be valuable to others like us, sometime

I am constantly anxious as to whether I am a good parent to my DD. On Sunday night I had my first realisation that the reason my confidence as a parent is so low is because I haven't had any experience of good parenting. That's probably an obvious conclusion to those on this thread but what I am saying is it was the first time I have admitted it in relation to myself. I told DH this and he said of course you're a good parent, you're a saint in comparison to your mum (who currently is not speaking to me over some really trivial incident).

I veer constantly between feeling I have told off/criticised DD too much or not given her enough attention, and feeling I am spoiling her. My parenting feels unnatural in that I have to be thinking about what is right and wrong in a very conscious way all the time. At the back of my mind is the constant anxiety that I am like my dad and DD will grow up like my brothers (one committed suicide, the other effectively committed suicide with alcohol).

DD is a popular girl but lacks confidence and is prone to anxiety - of course at the back of my mind I am blamimg myself. I have no idea whther I an blaming myself because I have low confidence or because I am not a good parent. I even doubt DH's opinion.

I think it's good that I am now conscious of this anxiety as before it was always at the back of my mind. Someone mentioned on this thread how they couldn't bear for their DC to be upset (or something like that) and I am the same, I think, because it triggers off my anxiety that I am not a good parent.

Not sure what I am going to do with this knowledge but it feels good to put it in writing.

There is some value in looking at things in shades of grey and understanding the reasons why people did the things they did, but - something my therapist used to like to say frequently - these reasons might explain their behaviour but they don't excuse it.

The reason I think it is good to look at the underlying reasons though, is that if you understand their reasons, and you realise that these had little to do with the way you were, and were mostly about that person's other problems, it helps you to feel that you were not to blame and shouldn't be ashamed, and that it didn't happen because of something being wrong with you. This thought helps with your self esteem.

It's interesting about the enlightened witness thing. In day-to-day life I feel we should look at things from all angles before making a judgement, but I have to admit that when my therapist made a face of disgust about the people who hurt me and used negative language about them and talked in a condemning way about them it really helped me and I felt a huge relief which I still seem to feel now, even though I don't see him anymore! I needed to feel that someone understood how bad it really felt for me and why it affected me in the way it did. I needed to feel I wasn't/hadn't been stupid and that the way I reacted to it was normal. He made me feel this.

I thought I would have to keep my therapist in my life because I needed to know that there was someone in my life who understood it all, but it seems to have been enough for him to make me feel better and then for me to stop going to him. The 'better' feeling seems to have lasted. I'm not sure how this has worked. I suppose it doesn't matter how it has worked but I would like to know anyway.

ABetterLife, I feel the same with worrying whether I am doing parenting properly. Someone said recently (sorry I've forgotten who) that our trust in our judgement and instincts was damaged during childhood and this could be one reason why we worry about our parenting so much.

You said you were constantly thinking about what is right and wrong in every situation wrt your children and I think that is a really good thing! If only our parents had done that! It sounds like you are a better parent because of your experiences if it makes you do this more.

Something that helps me with my worries about being a good parent sometimes is to notice each little (and bigger) thing I do for my children and think, did my parents ever do this for me? When I realise that they didn't, I can see that I am doing a better job than them. If you keep this in your mind for a while, noticing all the good things you do do, rather than focussing on what you don't do, or what you feel you get wrong, I think you will be a bit reassured.

OrdinarySAHM - your last two posts have helped me hugely thank you

Feeling very weepy. DS is at nursery school. Today was the first day he went in on his own - ie I left him at the door rather than going in with him and making sure he was ok. It has been such a huge emotional process, the whole accepting that I needed to make some time for myself in the week to work on my stuff, rest, have head space for me - and that meant having some form of childcare for him. I always said I would keep him at home till he was 3, and I went through a long process for months of battling with my therapist who first suggested it, because she could see things were really getting too much for me amd that wasn't good for DS ultimately. I felt like I was a failure if I couldn't care for him myself full time; I felt angry that this was another area where they'd made my life different from how I would have chosen it to be, even now - because it's obviously because I'm so overloaded dealing with all the "stuff", and that motherhood has brought up so much more "stuff" - that this step became essential rather than a decision I took entirely freely.

But whatever the rights and wrongs of it I think it has been the right decision for now. Even though it's been a bit up and down so far, and after I left him for most of the session once, he didn't want to go back the next day, and yesterday when I was trying to leave we had the first really big episode of crying and clinging to me (fortunately one of the staff did manage to distract him and I saw that he was calm before I left), and I went through a massive thing of thinking the nursery isn't good enough for him and I'd made a massive mistake choosing it - even with that, on the whole it's been fairly positive so far, and it is already making a very positive difference to our relationship. And he was quite ok with me leaving him at the door today, went in reasonably happily - I asked him before if he likes the "teachers" and he said an emphatic "yes" so that was good. But even with all that - I MISS him!!!!! I was just lying in bed, trying to rest (had insomnia last night) and just burst into tears thinking about him, his lovely soft warm little self, the total loveableness of him, the sheer volume of his unconditional love for me - and I suppose it's actually good to have the space to feel this stuff. It's helping me accept it more, believe it more - that the dream really did come true in the end, we did have our happy ending, we are "living our dream", me and DH and our little family. Because it really was such a long, long time coming, and when you've lived in the dark for so long it's hard to adjust to living in the light - and the fear that if you say it's good now you'll "jinx" it is there too - but things do seem to be working out rather beautifully at the moment. Dare I say that??!! Not that everything is perfectly sorted of course but.... oh god, there's bound to be a come back if I say it's good, the old unconscious patterns of "not being allowed to have a good life" haven't lost all their strength yet, I'm sure, but.... stream of consciousness going on here

The other thing I think that has really helped me lately is that I have spoken up on here when something hasn't felt right, and that is a huge step for me, one that was intensely scary but has really had a positive effect on me. Even DH has commented that he has seen a positive change in me. The problem for me now is that I don't want to make myself some kind of relentless battler, picking up on anything and everything that I don't feel comfortable with. I guess there are always going to be things some of us don't feel comfortable with at any given time; I just want to feel that my posts and my responses are not being skewed by my having been triggered by someone else. Which is itself a learning process.

I also think there is still a debate to be had about the saftey of the thread, and the attitude we should (shouldn't?) have when we comment on other people's posts, but I don't know if the time is right now, or indeed even if there is a consensus there about that, or if I am the right person to start that debate, if one is wanted. So I shall ponder some more, silently. WTSA, thank you for identifying with what I have said in some of my posts, it does help to know someone else is feeling what I'm feeling, as always.