'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

wtsa I feel exactly the same regarding friendships - I have unrealistic expectations too - I'm looking for mothering from any friends I make, which of course they can't give me to the extent that I need it and as I don't want to come across as needy, I detach myself and keep them at a distance. It's no wonder I only have a few friends.

Tigga I'm grieving for so much too - for the mother I needed but didn't have, for the mothering she should have had, for the little girl I was - and feel so sad for, for the marriage I thought I had - Grace my exH had a diagnosis of Aspergers and I know how soul destroying it is to live with someone who cannot offer emotional support. My husband was great at practical things (just like the parents!) but didn't "do" emotions. I feel I'm drifting at sea and need a nice warm secure boat to climb into.

Regarding counsellors, I think the problem I have is I need someone to advise me. Each counsellor I've seen has given me too much control over what action to take next iyswim. Every time I asked a question, the answer would be 'What do you think would be best to do?' Yes, in the future I'd like to be able to work it out for myself, but just now I need someone to help me make decisions, to suggest to me the best thing to do, not to question me - I find that the hardest thing and so I'm really reluctant to embark on more counselling. It may be just me, but I feel this constantly passing the ball back to me ('what do you feel/think/want is lazy counselling?)

Oh, MILs! Since exH and I separated, my MIL and her entire family have decided not to have any contact with me. Since they haven't spoken to me about it (anything unpleasant in MIL's world is automatically swept under the carpet) I can only assume exH has given her the impression I was in the wrong/bad/whatever. He denies this, but due to his Asperger's a lot of what he says gets very confused and confusing and I'll probably never get to the bottom of it. I'm grieving for that too and the unfairness of being judged without a fair trial. They've known me (albeit superficially, they don't 'do' emotions either!) for over 30 years. Luckily they don't live nearby so at the moment it has to be a case of out of sight out of mind.

I've had some support from my family - my DB & DSIL are lovely, but are still in contact with my exH. My gut feeling is to ask all my family to stop talking to him and support me but I know this isn't fair.

Sorry to ramble again, but this is helping me order my thoughts as I don't really have anyone else to tell my story to.

poolet what you said here "the unfairness of being judged without a fair trial." just LEAPT out at me. That is how i have been treated by my sisters and MIL. They have ALL judged me without ever hearing or being willing to hear my side of events.

TRS thanks, it helps to hear from somebody who has been there and done that, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

wtsa I dont want it to sound as though Im there yet IYKWIM, because Im definately not. But compared to when I first began posting on here, when I had 'no' friends in RL at all.
Even now nobody apart from Dh knows this side of me. About my childhood etc. I still havent ventured that far out of my shell yet. Then again for now I feel ok with that I think.

poolet Im not sure counsellors are morally able to tell you what you should do. It could concievably be seen as a form of control IYSWIM. I think some strands of therapy are more directive than others though. I think mostly it gets referred to as talking therapy because it gets you talking about whats on the inside, whilst someone guides you, and validates your feelings.
Would you think about trying a journal or do you do keep one already.

I love the fact this thread is shorter. When the thread gets long, my PC won't load it.

I've been NC with my emotionally abuse mother for 13 months. I think she has NPD.

My four year old daughter wants to see her. Today we had the following conversation in the car

DD "We need to go and see your mum at half term, we hanven't seen her for ages"

Me: "I'm not very keen on seeing her"

DD "Why?"

Me: "She's now always very nice. She is often mean to me. I don't like mean people"

DD: "But she hasn't been mean to me. I do love my nana"

help, help, help.

sorry, meant "not" always very nice

wtsa I sometimes feel that MIL & her lot must have been just looking for an excuse to have nothing more to do with me. Do you ever think this in your situation? ExH and I have separated before and got back together. If that happened again, would they all change their minds and act the loving family?

Smithfield I know it wouldn't be right for a counsellor to tell me what to do. Suggestions to choose from, hints, options etc might be helpful when I'm floundering and just don't know what's the right thing - I've not had much guidance in the past and have made some horrendously bad decisions.

A journal is an interesting suggestion, thank you. Actually, my mother kept a diary every day of her adult life. Once, as a very young child (only old enough to read really) I found the one that had the day of my birth in it and understandably looked at it, full of excitement as to how she would describe her lovely new baby. This is what she wrote "Poolet born - wanted a boy."

Oh well.

Hmm, poolet, if that's all your counsellors have done then you're right - they're not very good counsellors. On the other hand, they aren't supposed to tell you what to do, but to guide you in developing your ideas for yourself. Mind you, some are useless!

I think it is easier, for some people (including me), to begin the process with a book. By the time I'd done "Homecoming", I was utterly clear about what I hoped to achieve in all my therapy. And that is - like all 'adult children' - to love, respect & trust myself. Because that frees me to love and receive love; to respect others & expect the same from them; to know whom & what to trust, and to be trustworthy.

What you said above, about hoping friends will love you like a mother, is poignantly sad. And it's why I want to complete my process, as fully as it is possible to do. When we place unfair burdens on others, we hurt them and are, ourselves, inevitably disappointed. Instead of relieving our weight of bitterness/resentment, we add to it - because that 'parenting' is something we've already lost. In seeking it from other people, we are simply repeating the experience. We need to learn the truth that no-one can give it to us, but we can develop it for ourselves, within us ... and we do need help with that.

Compared to those (like the brothers & sisters so often mentioned in these threads) whose psyches were also damaged by toxic parents, but haven't yet gained the courage to face it or to try & heal it, we're the lucky ones. Part of human nature is to keep repeating emotional mistakes, in a crazy effort to "get it right" at last. Of course, there's little hope of getting it right until you're clear on what went wrong

That's what I was doing with XH#2 of course. He was emotionally absent - in his Aspie way - and I was, unconsciously but insanely, trying to "win" a kind of love from him that simply couldn't be there. Huh. It's taken me an absurdly long time to absorb the fact but, hey, we all 'process' at different rates! Thanks for understanding what my marriage was like, Poolet - as you know, it's a difficult thing to explain. I love the Aspie thread in this forum! Though, hopefully, I shan't "need" to be there so much now

BopTheAlien wrote some really smart stuff in the previous thread, including: "I think if we do hang on to negative experiences in the present (speaking from experience!) it's because they are reflective in some way of older, deeper issues, and we are hanging onto them because we actually do want to resolve them" That's definitely true about my nagging doubts wrt that marriage ... and this is the kind of thing a good counsellor can alert you to, not telling you what to do about it but helping you to make sense of it: to move towards the resolution we unknowingly sought in it.

Another thing BopTheAlien wrote is: "That voice is essentially a hurt child who has been taught to hate herself; you can show her she deserves love and teach her how to receive it."

This IS the purpose of therapy; it IS the answer
Your posts ring with distress at the moment, Poolet. I'd like to let you know it is worth looking into the source of the pain (you couldn't treat a wound without looking at it, could you?) - and that it does, really does, get better. I'm not there yet, but I truly believe I'm heading that way. It's so worth it

I'm sure I could have said that in about a tenth of the wordage

Grace I have just ordered 'Homecoming' and thank you for recommending it. Going into counselling again (if that's what I chose to do)would be more successful if I'm armed with an expectation of what I want and need to get from it. I'm looking forward to starting the book and feel that it's a positive step to take.

Koala, personally I feel it would be controlling of you, in your turn, to refuse contact between your daughter and your mother - although I understand your reluctance. I'm not even sure it's a good idea to paint her as a bad person (although she probably is). Ideally, the only bad people a child needs to be aware of are over-friendly strangers and fictional monsters!

One of the things about being an 'adult child' of toxic parents, and a parent yourself, is that it forces you to be an adult. Obviously, that's scary but it's also a wonderful opportunity! This looks like one of those time where you must behave like an adult. You're a mother now, you can no longer afford to "blame" your Mum. Give some good, hard thought to how she "hooks you in" - your triggers, and the games she sucks you into. Neutralise them. If it helps, imagine a 'safety bubble' to keep you immune to your mum's tactics. thumbwitch posted great advice on this, here.

Naturally you'll want to keep visits down to a controllable level, but I don't think you should disallow them completely. If you want to bottle out, maybe you could get a trusted friend or relation to chaperone DD on the visit?

Good luck

Best wishes for your 'Homecoming', poolet!

Do keep us up to speed with your process (if you want to). xxx

Hello grace -Just had a look at that book too. It looks good but I can tell from the first page (you can do look inside on amazon) it's going to be tough going. Deep breath. Think I shall order it too.
We could help each other through it poolet.

Great posts.

I've just had a look at Homecoming too and am going to order it. Thanks for recommending it Grace.

poolet Do you mean whether my MIL is looking for an excuse to have nothing more to do with me or my family? Now that you mention it I do feel that my family are quite happy to have nothing more to do with me. In fact I have always felt like this, like they were always dying for to just go away and leave them alone as they all seemed to get on a lot more harmoniously with each other whilst i was always rocking the boat and causing havoc (as my sister put it to me not so long ago).

wtsa I just get the impression from the sheer speed that my in-laws cut me off from them that they probably never cared that much for me in the first place. If they had, I'm sure they would have felt hurt for both my ex and myself that our relationship has come to an end - it was a mutual decision and as amicable as these things can be. So I really don't think they give a toss about me. I also looked to my MIL for mothering when my own mum died - it wasn't forthcoming & that should have rung alarm bells at the time I guess.

smithfield & grace I'm sure I'll be posting a lot more on here once I have the book, I'll be grateful for any guidance as I agree it does look a bit "heavy", but looking inside it on Amazon struck a chord so what do we have to lose?

KoalaSar - I really feel for you. It must tear you in two to know that the right thing for you is not to see your mother, but to have your DD saying she wants to. I have guilt attacks over whether I'm depriving DS by not letting any of my family see him, especially this Xmas when my niece and nephew came to visit for the first time in a year - they're the only members of my family I do see at all. He loved spending time with them and after they left kept asking to see them again: if I had a normal relationship with my family he would of course see a lot more of them, stay in my parents' home at the same time as them etc etc. But I can't afford to let them near me, I really can't. So it has to be like this, at least for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that while I respect Grace's opinion on this (and thanks for the namecheck, Grace !!), I do think there's another way of looking at it too. Your instinct is to protect your DD as well as yourself. Now your mother obviously hasn't shown her "mean" side to your DD yet, but who can say when she might? If you have been emotionally abused by someone yourself, the last thing you want to do is leave your own DD with that person, and potentailly expose her to the same thing. Your DD is four. She cannot possibly make all decisions for herself regarding her life yet. If she said she wanted to eat nothing but chocolate all day every day, you wouldn't let her. Bit of a clumsy example I know but what I'm trying to say is that obviously there are some major decisions that you need to make for her, there are situations where you know something is potentially harmful and she doesn't.

I'm not really coming up with any answers for you, but just want to explore different perspectives a bit. Were they really close before you went NC? Does she really miss her that much, or could it just be that other children at school have been talking about their nanas and she doesn't want to be left out, for example? Or could it be that she is expressing your own inner ambivalence about the whole sitationa - it's hard to be 100% happy about such a drastic step, for anyone, I think most of us have a sense of dilemma about it even when we know overall it's the healthiest, sanest thing to do. And children are so close to us, they can unconsciously pick up on the stuff going on inside us.

All of this may be wide of the mark, it may be that your DD really does love her that much and it really is important for her to see her - and it would be horrible if in later life she blamed you for keeping them apart and depriving her of this special relationship - but, especially without knowing more details, there isn't a right way or wrong way to go about dealing with this at the moment. I do think Grace's idea of getting someone else - if there is someone else you can really trust - to "chaperone" the visits could be a compormise, but even that would require you to have some level of contact with your mother, which could be too much for you. And it would also require some explanation as to why you're not going which is also very hard for a 4 yr old, and would take away the veneer of "normality" which is perhaps what she wants.

The other thing to take into consideration is how much of an ill effect having to have contact with your mother would have on you. I know for example that my mother makes me completely crazy. If I'm crazy, then my DS suffers. Sometimes all the techniques in the world don't help, you just have to avoid the people/situations that do that to you, until you've had time and space to heal the deepest part of the wounds, at least. It's part of being able to say "I don't have to take this shit any more". So if contact with her is going to interfere significantly with your healing process, then that's going to impair your own mothering abilities, which isn't good for your DD. If on the other hand it could be a useful exercise for you in setting boundaries and doing things on your terms, you being the adult in charge, then maybe it could be a part of the healing?

So like I said - no answers I'm afraid, but I wanted to try and lessen the guilt for you if possible, and say that the way I see it, there are different ways of putting your DD's needs first. I also have a vested interest here as I am dreading the day DS asks about his grandma and grandad and uncle, and I still have no idea what I'm going to answer, so you night be giving me some tips down the line!

Hello to everyone else too - can't believe what's been happening on the thread, so good that so many new people have found it. Have actually been reeling a bit from the whole "spikygate" (lol) (lol at the name I mean not at the situation!) thing - and quite a momentous week for me otherwise too, with DS starting at nursery (very part time) and sleeping through for the first time EVER one night this week!!!!! (age 2.3) and then me getting a monster cold and feeling like death for the last few days...anyway I very much like being called bopthebrave thank you very much!! Seriously, it was momentous for me because I've wanted to speak out against bullying of so many kinds for so long, but because of being bullied so very badly and so many times myself, my voice has been too weak, and the times I did try to stand up for myself or anyone else in the past, I always got shot down in flames as it were and felt even worse as a result. So it's a kind of rite of passage for me to be able to do that and not take the flak but to be listened to and taken seriously. WTSA, I am so glad that you were able to receive the gift I wanted to give you - of being believed and defended and respected - and that it has made a difference to you. I do know exactly how it feels to be the one that no one ever stands up for, so I know how precious it is if somebody finally does, and the child in me who was bullied has benefited too.

Got to go, too late as usual, I only ever seem to be able to put my thoughts together at this ridiculously late time. And I so desperately need more sleep. Agh.

KoalaSar I'm in a similar situation although The Cub is only 9 months. I've stopped caring about the approval from my father which helps a great deal. Being emotionally unconnected is a great way to deal with the crap that gets dished out. It isn't that i have negative feelings for him, I just don't have any feelings for him. My son, does have a right to have a relationship with his only biological grandfather. However, my father is out of last chances and should he choose to act out his toxicity towards my son there will be no more contact. I've had the conversation with him and told him in no uncertain terms that if he decides to be toxic, he is choosing to have no contact with my son. There will be no turning this around and no wiggle room. Perhaps a similar conversation with your mother would be appropriate.

To quote Parenthood:

You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father

I paraphrase to this:

You know, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any idiot with working sperm be a father. It takes a real person to be a dad.

KnowsThatIsPossiblyTheTruestThingEverSaidInAFilm

koala - I know how horroble a situation you are in, I am not in contact with my mum howevermy daughter adores her and they are in fact very close. DD thankfully doesn't see my mujm's selfishness, and of course she doesn;t have the baggage which I carry round with me. However it is so hard not to come out with spiteful comments when dd talks about my mum etc, I really have to bite by tongue. I agree with Tigga that she does have a right to a relationship with her gran which is seperate to any relationship I may or may not chose to have.

However, the logistics of it are not easy are they. I am lucky in that my dd is 14 so can organise phonecalls etc. However, we live 150 miles away from mum, and I cannot bear the thought of driving down there (I have a realy mental block about even driving into my home town since my gran died) and to see my mum but not talk to her iyswim. DD is too young to go down there on her own on the train imo. So unfortunately dd has not seen my mum since October. She normally goes down there for half term, and I don't know what will happen this year, I think i will have to get DP to take dd down. And yet I don't know if I want dd to stay down there without me because I am worried that my mum will start the drip, drip, drip of 'comment' about me, how selfish I am etc etc. Yet I can I control the relationship between dd and my mum without destroying it? It is so hard.

Grace I know how yoiu feel regarding missing out on the education you so wanted, and subsequently the life which you had planned for yourself. I was very bright at school - my junior school entered me into a scholarship to private school and I was offered a place, but my gran didn't let me go as she didn't believe in private education. She just wanted to deny me to chance to have an education and get out of the small town, I realise now. Being denied that burned for years. Also, when I was about to start A Levels, my English teacher really wanted me to apply to Oxford - she had been herself, she was more than happy to 'coach' me and help me with the application process etc. My gran went nuts at the whole idea, refused to support the fact I wanted to go on to higehr education. So due to the fact that there was no support I could see at that time for young kids who needed this kind of help, I realised I couldn't put up with any of it any more, and got a job as a waitress with digs.

I often think what my life would have been like if I had had the support and encoragement of a normal upbringing. I compare myself to a friend who was my age and equivalent academic ability, she also won a scholarship, went to the private school, got 5 As at A Level, went to Cambridge to read Maths, now works in the city and is hugely successful, as well as good (she does an enormous amount of charity work).

However (without meaning to seem trite) if I had done all i wanted to, I would not have had my dd at 17. In lotsof people's eyes, having a daughter when a teen is the mark of failure, however in my eyes she is the best thing I have ever done. I got there in the end career wise - ok I didn't get a classical education, however I pulled myself up by the bootstraps, got a degree in engineering whilst working, and now have a good, professional job. So I am not earning megabucks in a really top flight job - I am just pleased I can hold my head up high and be proud of the small success I actually have achieved. And every day I look at dd and thank god I had her. She saved my life.

What a lovely post, GOML! I had a conditional offer from Cambridge but Dad wouldn't fund me for university (would have funded my brother though!!) Sounds like he was your Gran's long-lost twin

I agree people can poison their own lives with regrets about what they missed out on; hope I didn't seem to be doing that! It was a useful exercise for me though. People keep telling me I should study for another degree - we underestimate the wisdom of our friends sometimes, don't we? I think they're right.

I think it's wise of you to allow your DD to know her grandmother - hard as it must be for you. Did you notice you expressed your concerns in terms of what your mum would tell her about you? (And that you mentioned "controlling" the relationship) Just a little heads-up ...

Grace - that is rotten about not being funded for your degree, especially in comparison to your brother.

Sorry - seemed a slight typo, I meant to say 'I can't control the relationshop without destoying it'. It is interesting that I used the word control, however. I would not see myself as a controlling person, however it is concerning that I would use that word in relation to my own daughter. That is rather concerning so thank you for pointing it out.

To clarify about not wanting my mum to comment re me, when me and mum last spoke it was at the beginning of the school half term, I went home leaving my dd there with mum for a week. When I went to collect dd a week later, dd said that mum had been crying, saying that I was selfish and obsessed with material things etc. So I am just worried that she will do that again, emphatically not because I am worried about what she might say, but because of the fact that dd will be put into an awkward position. Poor thing is stuck between the both of us.

Horrid for your daughter to be exposed to your mum's lunacies, GOML. The great thing is that - having been brought up by you NOT your mum - her gran's "button-pushes" won't work on her!
Something to be proud of, methinks

I have been feeling so, so low the last couple of days. I have had quite a long spell of feeling positive and content so where has this black cloud come from?

The sort of 'what is the point?' feelings are hanging over me. The feeling that I should be achieving something great to make my life worthwhile, which I am sure partly was internalised from my adoptive parents. I have really enjoyed being a mum since my DD arrived but suddenly it seems like an endless drudge/cycle of feeding, wiping, washing and child/baby talk. Why this sudden new phase of discontent?

I feel unimportant and unloved. I crave a mum to hug me and tell me I am special and worthwhile. I even feel angry at my ILs. My MIL has gone some way to fill this gap but I know deep down her own daughter is more special and a bit of a favourite (and why shouldn't she be?). I feel second best and not quite good enough.

I made the mistake of phoning my Grandmother and what was really hard was that she was actually quite nice. Asked about my life and the children and seemed to listen. I know I shouldn't think in black and white but I want her to be bad and narcissist. I don't like her and want her out of my life and then I think I am being nasty and unreasonable. My adoptive father wants contact again but can't forgive the letter I sent them. He won't apologise but states his words were words of encouragement not bullying. My grandmother has asked if we can all meet but agree to disagree

My MIL says she feels sad for them as they are missing out on their grandchildren's life
She is on my side so to speak but I feel so angry at her words because they set all the self doubt in motion. That keeping them emotionally and physically distant is needed for my own well being. She always tries to see everyone's point of view but it is infuriating. I want someone to be on my side wholeheartedly. To really believe me when I tell them that my adoptive parents were awful to live with and that I would be better off without them.

Why the hell does she feel sad for them? But then I too feel sad for them sometimes. Sad that people can end up so lonely and twisted, caused my their own childhood dysfunction

I a just so confused and low today. Are they that bad? Does my MIL think I am being harsh and a bad daughter? Should I try to have contact with them and see them?

Why do I feel so utterly useless today as a mum, a woman and a wife?

Rose, so sorry you are going through a tough time. I am quite surprised at what your MIL said about feeling sorry for your GP. From what you have said before about your MIL, i got the impression that she fully understood your situation wrt your GP and understood and supported your decision not to see them. I can completely understand you feel angry at her words, because it makes you feel as if what you went through as a child with your GP is not relevant today when it is absolutely relevant and is the whole reason why your GP are not seeing your DC.

I know what you mean about wanting somebody who is totally on YOUR side and is completely supportive all the time and trusts in you and your ability and intentions. I am craving that person too. But now that we are adults there is nobody who can be that person to us. We had a chance as children to have somebody who was wholeheartedly on our side and that person was our parent(s). If we didn't have them on our side as children it means we have lost out on that forever. Sometimes I feel the pain of knowing this so acutely, I end up sobbing, but no amount of sobbing or hoping desperately that such a person will appear will make it happen. I don't know what else to say apart from, I know completely and absolutely how you feel. That desperate wanting for something that it is impossible for us to have. Nobody except other people in our position can possibly understand how that feels. It's not even like missing somebody who has now passed away, as at least have the comfort of having had that person in your life, this is the wanting of something that we have never had and yet we so desperately need. I can't think of anything else to compare it to. Normally if there is something you need but never get, you would die. Like food or water, and this is a need just like food or water and yet not having it has not killed me, although sometimes it feels like it's going to.

Sorry that was a morbid sounding post. Hope I haven't made you feel even worse.

Bop thank you again for a brilliant post. You have said what I was thinking but was unable to articulate to Koala. Koala is the most important person in her DD's life. And doing what is right for her, ie Koala, will mean she is doing what is right and best for her DD. There will be a cost to Koala if she allows her DD to see her mother and there will be a percieved benefit to her DD. If the cost to Koala outweighs the percieved benefit to her DD then at this point in time it may be best for her DD to not see Koala's mother. The situation may change in the future as Koala heals and recovers and feel stronger and more able to cope with her DD seeing her mother at which point she may feel more able to cope with some contact between the two.

I guess what I am saying is that a decision made now, based on what is best at this point in time, can be revisisted later and perhaps changed. I don't feel anything is set in stone. This process is a journey and as we move forward and change, things that we cannot cope with now we may feel more able to cope with later. I would always say do what is necessary to look after yourself first and foremost, our DC's can only benefit from a mother who is looking after herself and allowing herself the space and time needed to heal and recover from the hurt and damage inflicted in the past. That is not being selfish, it is doing what is necessary for you to be the parent your child needs you to be.

And I am talking from the perspective from somebody who has virtually beaten herself up with guilt about not being able to do the things with my DC's that I see other mums doing. Beating myself up over the sheer amount of time I have had to spend on working on myself which has inevitably meant i have had less time for my DC's and DH. But i am beginning to see the benefits of my hard work now and can see it was well worth doing, a short term sacrifice for a much longer term gain.

poolet I think I also subconsciously looked to my MIL to be a substitute mother for me and was deeply hurt and upset and disappointed when she clearly had no motherly instincts or intentions towards me whatsoever. I have realised now that i was simply expecting something from her that i should not have expected. She is DH's mother and her mothering instincts will always be directed towards him. I have accepted that now although she is also toxic and even DH agrees she completely overstepped the boundaries of respect and courtesy that should be shown to everyone, whether they are your children or not.

I have realised that within my relationship with DH, pretty much from day 1, I have failed completely to set any boundaries. I have allowed him to behave in a, at times, terrible and abusive way towards me, and I have simply failed to make it clear that i will not accept being treated in that way. I have started to set some boundaries now. But that still leaves almost 10 years where there were no boundaries. And i realise i have a well of pent up feelings about him from that time which I need to process. But it is very hard to process feelings about somebody when they are still in your life. Ideally i would like to have a period of no contact with DH but that is impossible.

I can see that right from when i was a very young child my parents did not respect my boundaries and of course as a child i was not aware that I could have boundaries. I just accepted the way as i was treated by them. My parents constantly and as a matter of course, overstepped the mark where my boundary should have been. Even as a child i was entitled to be treated with courtesy, respect for me and my feelings, empathy and compassion. I was never shown any of those things. And so i grew up not even knowing that i was entitled to these things. And so I allowed everyone else in my life, from my sisters to DH to say and do whatever they wanted to me, without me ever saying a thing. I realise i have never set any boundaries with anyone about how i will allow myself to be treated. And throughout my life i can see i have encountered people with whom you do not need to set boundaries because they have been brought up to respect certain common boundaries in everone such as respect and consideration for another person's feelings, and there are other people I have encountered where you most certainly do have to put firm boundaries in place as otherwise they will ride roughshod over me and my feelings. So in some cases I have been lucky as my lack of boundary setting has not resulted in me being hurt and disrespected because the other person has been brought up to respect everyone's boundaries and in some cases i have been unlucky and met people who will not respect your boundaries unless you first make it clear to them that they will have to.

DH unfortunately seems to be in the latter camp. Not surprising given his mother. She shows NO respect for other people's feelings not even her own DH or her own DC's, but they have grown up with her and so don't know any better. And so it makes sense that DH treats me the same way. But it is now up to me to start marking out some lines for him that he is not allowed to cross. A very new prospect for me, but one that i know i have to do and will do. I know DH won't like it. I have already put some boundaries in place and i can see he is railing against them and trying to assert himself and keep the old status quo in place. But I am not going to allow it, whatever the consequences. He will have to find somebody else he can dominate and control and intimidate because it's no longer going to be me.