'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Smithfield Can I make a decision seperately from DH?......YES! I already have. DH and I have discussed it and I have explained to him that for the forseable future I do not want anything to do with his parents. They have taken me to my darkest hour and I don't want to put myself up for that again. Plus it would be so uncomfortable for me to be around 2 people who have told me to my face that they don't like me. This of course will make it very difficult when I have the baby as I will be breast feeding and will make it hard for them to see the baby. No doubt this will be viewed as me being awkward and vindictive.

I don't think DH is strong enough to re-connect with his parents right now. He has himself realised this and says that he would like to wait until he has had counselling before making contact. He is looking forward to reading 'Toxic Parents' which is very unlike DH as he has always poo-pooed it before. Things are so jumbled in DH's head I don't think he can make sense of any of it.

NLQD- Thankyou for your post. Your writing is always very inspirational and poetic. I think so anyway (just in case that inner voice is recoiling).
I loved the bit where you wrote about going down to the basement and '.... unpacking all the old cardboard boxes'. I guess the problem I am encountering is I'm still not sure who the contents belong to. If that makes sense? So Im never sure what I should keep and what I should throw out.
I 'think' my alter ego cares a lot about approval, and wants people to think I am important and tough. But there are so many facets and I often feel as though I am wading through a quagmire of self doubt.
My own internal voices shout 'selfish', 'too late' or 'who do you think you are anyway'....'Just grow up and get on with it'.
And actually the selfish thing is HUGE for me because meeting my own needs or putting me first is SO very hard. It feels completely and utterly wrong. And yes I am getting better at it. I 'ensure' dh is back in time for me to have my two weekly slots of excercise. I push any guilt about that away.
But I think that whenever I wanted to 'DO' something my mother would put the fear of god into me. She would put a negative 'spin' on my needs. So if I wanted to travel '...I was running away'. If I wanted to change career 'I was being daft'. I have at times managed to do things regardless but then I carry the anxiety of 'what if she is right' which tends to break me down in the end . Maybe there is a fear of making my own choices, going against my mothers will so to speak.
There is another underlying fear that what if I am making excuses by wanting do do something more enjoyable or fulfilling, perhaps my not 'applying' myself to my current work in the here and now is an excuse. An excuse not to shine. I really dont know

PinkyMinxy hasn't posted in a while. I hope she's ok. Iirc, she was quite down last time she posted. Hope she finds the new thread.

Oh goodness. I've seen the previous thread titles, just didn't know it would be relevant to me. I've been reading the OP with tears in my eyes. For so many years I've been telling myself it wasn't that bad, but deep inside is a knot of fear and pain. I just keep squashing it down though, why should I rake up the past, I should just let it lie, all sorts of excuses.

Oh heck.

Skiptomylou, glad you found us. I cried too when i first found this thread years ago. Hope you will post more when you're ready.

Thank you. I will. Just knowing this thread exists is good for now.

NLQD- I can not thank you enough for your post. Really. It is as though the penny finally dropped whilst reading it, which may sound a bit dumb. But it's as if all the internal chatter was so mixed up I no longer knew what to look out for anymore. Id lost the ability to distinguish. The more I tried to distinguish the harder it got.
It's all the more daft in a way because I believe recently my instincts have been literally screaming at me.
In fact I now see that the 'child me' has for some time now, had her arms folded in complete dissent.
And.... yes I did catch your drift. I have total trust in you NLQD, so I know you are in good hands . You will make the right and best decision for yourself in the end if not already.
There was a point in time when I felt exactly as you do and did exactly what you are doing now in response and it turns out I am truly happy on that level after all.
But ultimately and as I have said before we have a right to happiness we've done enough 'obligation' to last a lifetime.
Thank you again your post has really helped

Have been reading lots of posts on this thread, and I can identify with just about all of it!

I knew that my mother and stepfather had treated me badly, but until the past year I was justfying it as still being my fault in some undefineable way.

I saw NPD mentioned on another thread on mumsnet and looked it up - so many things make sense now and I know now that my mother did the things she did because something is wrong with her - not because something is wrong with me!

I looked at Dh today and I said 'I was an anorexic by 14, clinically depressed by 16 and addicted to heroin by the age of 19 not because something was wrong with me, but because soemthing was wrong with her!

I was brought up to feel worthless in everyway, some basic care neglected, (ignoring NPD type) and sexually abused - which my mother knows all about but still sleeps with him at night, I was also abused by a neighbours son and my mother decided not to say anything!

Sorry I have started rambling, but it felt so good to get it out and say it plain and simple!

Smithfield, I took a day to think over something you said - so you've done me a big favour!

You said I was caring. Thank you for that. I had a weird reaction to it - "caring" is the one thing I was encouraged to be - I cared for my younger sibs, I cared for Mum's ineptitude, and I cared for my dad's temper amongst other things. I've sort of felt defined as "caring" - and have felt it as the definition of why I have problems.

There's a list on my wall, where I write my good qualities - I've had these lists up, on and off, for ten years. I never put "caring" on them. I think I need to rethink, because caring is obviously a good quality. It doesn't need to be a weakness; I don't have to let bad people take the piss because of it. I need to appreciate it ... and manage it.

Cheers for that!

About no contact: I've seen, in this thread and its ancestors, how treacherous NC is. When your filial attachment fights against what's good for you, every choice looks like an impossible one.

For whatever my experience is worth: I believe you sometimes have to do it. Our heads need clear space to work on themselves. With constant interference from 'trigger' people, our heads can't work properly.

I severed contact with my father for two years, when I was around 20. I summoned him into the dining room (! he came as ordered!) and delivered a short speech about it. Afterwards, when I phoned home I asked to speak to Mum or my sister, and Dad meekly put them on. It didn't make him like me any better, but it broke the pattern we were locked into.

With my mother, I feel differently because she's 80 and will die sometime soon. I don't want to end my relationship with her in difficulty. She has tried to make amends - on her own terms (it's in my mum thread) - if she were younger, I'd have rejected that and pushed for something that felt more like 'repentance' to me. But she's old so I'm giving her the gift of feeling like she has made amends. I manage my communications with her (Transactional Analysis, thank you!!!) to protect myself I know she finds our current relations unsatisfying, but that's hard luck. It works well enough, and that's good enough.

Good enough. Isn't that a liberating concept??!

graceagain- I personally think it is a great quality but it doesnt mean you have to think so too .
But I really do get where you are coming from with this because my mother labelled me too. I was always the 'selfish' one.
So knowing this was 'her' opinion of me I would do anything to avoid the possibility that someone may 'think' of me as selfish. If they did that would mean her label wasn't a label but a fact.
But acually the flip side of selfish is an ability to look after one's needs. And not only is the ability to do that healthy....it's vital!
I also see how the flip side of caring can mean caring for others and neglecting yourself in the process.
Perhaps as the 'caring' one you weren't supposedf/allowed to care for yourself because your assigned 'role' was to care for others?
I can see exactly why you would baulk at my having labelled you yet again. Sorry probably the last thing you wanted to read.

No, no, I meant you prompted me to appreciate a side of myself that I'd preferred not to look at. Just like your 'selfish', it may have been twisted by others but has great value ...

graceagain Phew

grace re your post 03:05:56.
How old are your nieces and nephews?
It sounds to me like you are already doing all you can. If you can maintain a good relationship built on love and trust I think they will come to you when the timing is right.
There were times in my life when I was a teen that I 'knew' things weren't right but I still would have defended my mum to the hilt if someone had raised it with me first. However if someone had genuinely shown an interest in me and what I was doing that would have been worth so much.
That is the person I would have turned to when I was ready.
It would have been wonderful to have had someone I could have gone to. Would have made a huge difference to my life.

I hope you're right, smithfield
The eldest are 18, 20 and 21. I just hope they've taken on board enough, that they know I'll back them if they decide to 'look'. I had my Gran, but she was long dead by the time I got here. I understand, now, what a huge favour she did me just by knowing.

I've just found this thread and had often wondered what the 'stately homes' threads were about - thank you for explaining it in the title! I don't know if you would consider my childhood as 'abusive' but I am feeling very confused as I know I had an 'abnormal' upbringing but can't quite put my finger on what was wrong - is this usual?

I have suffered from eating disorders since my teens (I now have quite a healthy relationship with food), I was prescribed Valium and ADs for anxiety and depression from the age of 15, have subconsciously chosen partners who were emotionally unavailable (one violent, one with - for most of our relationship - undiagnosed AS). I've had counselling which has helped me in certain ways as I'm more assertive and have more self-respect, but there's still this feeling that chunks of the jigsaw are missing if you see what I mean. I now recognise that my father probably has AS - he was very good at the practical aspects of parenting but our conversations have never gone deeper than that. My mother is now dead and it's her treatment of me that I don't really understand.

Have any of you felt like this? I think I'd struggle to think about specifics and my counsellor came to the conclusion that she 'didn't love me' but I'm sure it's a lot more complex than that! I never suffered physical abuse and don't remember my mother even smacking me as a child but I did feel disregarded, dismissed, unimportant, irrelevant most of the time. I always wished I could be invisible and I don't even know why. I'd love to be able to untangle my feelings and get this sorted out once and for all.

I suppose these feelings have all resurfaced with the breakdown of my marriage. My husband and I separated quite amicably but his family are unfairly putting all the blame on me and after 30 years have cut off all contact - again the feeling of being dismissed without being able to defend myself and revisiting my childhood feelings of powerlessness and not being in control.

Sorry for the ramblings, I think this thread will be very therapeutic!

Could someone explain what Transactional Analysis is please?

roseability - I'm not very good at explaining, but this might help.

poolet yes I think it is very normal to not quite be able to put your finger on what was wrong. I know now that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder but previous to that it was always confusing as it was emotional abuse for the most part. And in the light of the horrific abuse (sexual and physical and neglect) that goes on it seemed insignificant. Although it all links in on a continuum in my case!

Hope you find this thread useful for you.

Hello all, please can I join this thread? Like so many others, my first instinct was 'it wasn't that bad' but I have recently re-read Toxic Parents and so much of it rings true.

Have just had (another) huge falling out with my mother. She has stormed off, won't talk to me, and my first instinct was 'shit, it's my fault, I must apologise. What if she dies and we haven't made it up?' And that pretty much sums up our relationship.

I won't go into tedious detail, but just wanted to say that I stumbled across this thread today and it already feels good just to have joined in.

Thanks.

ItsGrace, I really like how you look at each difficult feeling/set of thoughts that you have in the present and find a lesson to learn from it about yourself and about how to be happier. It's really positive and a strong thing to do.

There have been lots of positive thoughts on here lately - realisations/enlightenments/new positive ways of thinking and it feels really good to read it. It's really good if this thread can help with that.

I just want to stress, again, as I don't feel it can be repeated enough (as mentioned by Nemofish) - people who hurt you when you were a child did it NOT because there was something wrong with YOU but because there were things wrong with THEM. The blame and shame should be with them and not with you. You shouldn't have to be left with a feeling that there is something wrong with you and that you are flawed.

poolet Yes, you're definitely a card-carrying Stately Home visitor. Abuse does not need to result in physical scars and whelps to have been abuse. If you felt it was wrong then that's what you felt and nobody, but nobody has the right to try and dismiss your feelings. I'm glad that your eating disorders are now resolved... I was in my 30s before I was able to get that fixed! Unfortunately you will never get the answers you're searching for from your mother - but I think you can work on validating that what happened (or didn't happen in terms of love/affection) was real and that it has had far reaching consequences in your life. Would it be possible for you to have more therapy in light of the latest stresses in your life? Children of "neglectful" parents often seem to have problems which manifest themselves in personality disorders - again, absolutely not your fault if this has been the case - but it goes some way to explain why you're unable to unwravel the knots and draw a line under it all.

poolet, hi. I can relate to what you have said. I was not physically or sexually abused either and it is hard to properly describe why what i went through as a child felt so bad to me at the time. In my case there were a few specific incidents that I can describe as obviously abusive (eg my dad threatening me with a knife when i was about 14) but the rest of it is very hard for me to describe.

In trying to deal with my issues i realise i have focussed on how my parents made me feel as i cannot really describe the abuse as a series of seperate incidents. It was more about an ongoing atmosphere in our house caused by my dad and his moods and unpredictable rages and outbursts and his arguments and fights with my mum. Like you have described i felt disregarded, unimportant, an irritation, a nuisance, unwanted, unloved, disliked and even hated by my dad most if not all of the time.

I have always thought of what i went through as psychological and emotional abuse (mainly by my dad) and emotional neglect and abandonment (by my mother who knew what my dad was doing but never tried to stop him). I would say my dad was psychologically violent towards me, he said things to me when i was a child that an adult would find hurtful and very upsetting. He never once i believe thought about the impact of his words on me. He must completely lack the ability to empathise as otherwise he wouldn't have been able to say the things he did or would have at least felt sorry afterwards and told me he was sorry. But he never did and now he claims he doesn't know what i'm talking about when i bring up the past.

I'm glad you have raised this point poolet. I hadn't really thought about it before in the way you have described ie not being able to put a finger on what it was that you went through or describe specific incidents. Like i said apart from a couple of specific incidents i would find it very hard also to describe what i went through and yet i know i went through something that damaged and hurt me enormously.

I think perhaps this is why i struggle to talk about it with my sisters because i can't put a finger on it. It was more about how i was made to feel as a child but i can't really point to a particular incident and say because of that i felt x,y and z. It was more a case of 'death by a thousand small cuts' i suppose. Lots and lots and lots of small things that were said and done over years and years and years that hurt a lot and also the intangible things that are so hard to describe. Just a feeling, an atmosphere, a tension that was always present in our house. Things would always swing between being ok and even good for a while and then suddenly it would all explode and everyone would be at each other's throats. But a lot of the time it would be me and my dad arguing and he could be very vicious nasty and cruel, me as a 12/13 year old was no match for him at all. He could and would crush me easily although i never showed it, i always acted like i wasn't hurt, i wasn't scared and didn't care. My mum would stay silent throughout the whole time my dad was sticking the knives into me, too scared to tell him to stop in case he turned on her. My sisters were a lot younger so were probably just bewildered confused and terrified of it all. As they got older my dad deliberately made it look to them as if I was the cause of all our rows and arguments. They had no idea I was angry and hurt because of the emotional abuse i had suffered when they were much younger or simply not around.

WTSA - Your father and my adoptive father sound similar in their abuse I think.

You hit the nail brilliantly on the head when you described the abuse about how you felt rather than certain incidences

What I have felt hard is that actual abusive incidences I endured are few and far between. He threatened me physically a couple of times and said awful things about my appearance and character, but when I try to articulate this to him/them or even other people it can sound like I am moaning about a few incdences and focusing on the bad. However your statement about feelings has meant so much to me. I too felt disregarded and inadequate. I too was at the mercy of unpredictable rages and outbursts when he would project and dump all his vile feelings onto me. It was, like you said, an ongoing atmosphere of conflict and hurt. I now know this is not right and in its own way abusive

I thank you because I find it hard to articulate my abuse into words so that I can often feel that is in my head. This has helped validate me hugely

I will finish by saying that I think it is utterly abhorrent that a man would hold a knife to his daughter's throat. It sickens me. Do your sisters know about that incident? Poor you