'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I'm afraid I didn't explain myself re experiencing the 'feelings' very well...sorry guys...expressing myself to other people regards all this stuff is rather new. x

I'll try again...

Get the happy feelings through seeing your adult self in a happy situation (it's a bit like daydreaming)...then change your adult self into your child self...have a look around....see your day/your experience etc through a childs eyes, change the scenery (this is usually when a real memory may pop up)...feel the joy of being able to go on the swings, splash in the sea or whatever your 'happy' memory is.....then use this method to explore further when you are ready.

The art is in creating the 'feeling' first...

I also want to agree with Mummiehunnie, I've been following this thread for such a long time and you have all come so very far from your starting points. Well done. x

I wonder if I was 'groomed' not to question the abuse and how. I wonder how it was never noticed my others (although I think there was the odd occasion it was recognised but nothing delierate was done about it).

Today I was supposed to go and see my counsellor. My childcare fell through so we tried to arrange a phone session instead, then my ds was sick. Before I would have got so stressed and worked up about what has been a bad day really. However I have stayed quite calm and not got that down about it. Things just don't work me up like they used to. With each step taken towards nurturing and protecting that child, my adult self becomes more loving, more patient to others and kinder to myself. It is like I am giving that child the love it never had so the adult self is finally reaching its potential

God nightmare. Just had to endure my mother going on and on about what is my H thinking of wanting to leave our marriage. Part of me wants to scream because I treat him crap cause of all the damage you have done to me but I just sat there and endured it.

I am not sure if its positive or not that I think we have reached an agreement that our marriage is over but we are trying to see what kind of a relationship we can salvage once I have worked through some of my issues. I am saying that and it seems quite definative but part of me still doesn't commit it. Even though I know I shouldn't want a man who doesn't want the old me and has really hurt me in the last week, part of me just wants to forget and start again where we left off.

Got my fist counselling session this afternoon too. Apprehensive but really want to go. Just hope I am not disappointed.

Sal, at least it's not all completely finished with your DH and he hasn't totally given up on your marriage. Me and DH have been in a similar place to where you are. I think what has kept my DH here is that he can see for himself how things are improving for us as I work through more and more of my issues. He has stayed in the hope that at some point I will have resolved enough stuff that it will no longer be dominating our lives as it has been for the past few years. And we are sort of at that point now, although there is still some way to go for me, but we seemed to have reached a 'tipping point' where now things are better than they are worse iykwim? It's very tough whilst you are in the phase where the worse outweighs the better, but at some point, as long as you keep working on yourself and your issues, you will get to a much better place than where you are now.

I can so relate to what you said here "Part of me wants to scream because I treat him crap cause of all the damage you have done to me ". The more I find my true, undamaged or healed, self, the more I and DH can see that so many of our problems were down to the damage and not down to me.

Rose, am so happy to hear that you are feeling better. And like you said, not getting stressed about not being able to see your counsellor is proof in itself about how much progess you have made.

I have had another realisation. I always thought that I would help my DC's outside school with their reading and writing and maths etc. But, DD is in yr2 and I have found it so hard to motivate myself to do extra things with her outside school to support her learning in school. I have made all sorts of excuses to myself about why I have felt unable to support her more but it never occurred to me until now that even this is in some way down to my childhood experience. But after talking to my counsellor the other day, i am beginning to think my not wanting to support DD (apart from helping with homework) has somehow been 'imprinted' in me from childhood because my parents never supported or helped me in any way during my school years. They never took any interest in what I was doing at school (apart from taking the credit when I did well through my own efforts). And I realise now that even though I wanted to help DD all this time, there was something inside me blocking it and making it so I couldn't help her, despite wanting to. It's yet another loss to grieve over for me, as with parental help and support a child can do well at any school, and even though I did ok at school, I did it on my own. With my parents' behind me I could have done so much more. Even though I desperately wanted to help and support DD as much as I could in her schoolwork, I have been finding it virtually impossible, because there was something inside me blocking me.

Am hoping since I have now consciously realised this, things will change.

This was one of the things I burst into tears about when I saw my therapist. About how my parents made me feel as if I wasn't worth bothering about wrt helping me with my education, whereas they took a huge interest in my sisters school and education and gave them loads of help and support.

Therapist confirmed what I know already, that my dad used me as a 'vessel' for dumping all his rubbish into and it followed then that he could not be a normal supportive father in any way, including things like helping with and taking an interest in my school work etc. My issues in this respect must run deep as I felt like I couldn't stop crying about this and yet I don't have any concrete memories of what exactly happened wrt my school and education when i was very young. Apart from being told by my dad that my teachers had recommended he send me to private school when i was very young as they thought i was quite bright, but he told me he didn't send me because it would have been too much hassle and he couldn't be bothered. Not that he couldn't afford it which I would have understood.

Thanks Exotic traveller, it really helps knowing someone else has been through this and is coming out the other side I am feeling a bit more positive before the counselling.

Yes I remember my grandmother telling me 'everyhing you have achieved and everything you are is down to us'

Of course that didn't include the bad things. I was a bright child and I believe got through school on my own. I remember sitting down all sunday afternoons doing my homework with no help but more importantly like you said exotictraveller, they didn't take any interest in what I was learning. They soon enjoyed the reflected glory of my good grades and achievements though.

I too did okay at school but could have done so much better. They would never question the teaching if I wasn't doing as well in a subject as I could be. Again this links to the narcissists need to 'suck up' to so called authority figures. They just didn't listen full stop. It was like their ears were tuned only to hear things that reflected well on them and that required no effort on their behalf. As I have said before they just didn't see me, just a cardboard cut out of what they wanted to see.

I have pretty much decided that my adoptive father will never be in my life again - especially now that I suspect sexual inappropiateness. I just wish I could remember more.

He definately lived in this fantasy narcissist's world - whatever the hell that looks like. I think his rages were often linked to an interruption or intrusion into this world - a dose of reality that would challenge the damaged and broken part of him i.e. the real part. Sometimes even the spilling of a drink or a broken plate would be all it took to make this perfect pretend world crumble and reality take hold. Obviously reality was not a nice place for him.

He also dumped his vile self loathing onto me. I realise now that a lot of the really nasty things he said were things he thought about himself. He once said that the only reason people liked me was because they didn't know the real me. This, I realise now, was projection rearing its ugly abusive head. Indeed now that I and others have discovered the real him, he has reacted in a classic narcissistic way and cut us out. To crawl back into his snake pit and desperately protect his damaged ego - to shield it with more narcissistic supply.

It is interesting and of course sad that so many of you have been through some tough times with your husbands. I remember when I first started posting, thinking how lucky I was that at least things were solid with my dh. However recently I have been getting angry with him and I feel slightly dissatisfied with my marriage. We are arguing more as a result. I do suspect I am being triggered as I work on my issues. Something as simple as the fact that my dh has started wearing slippers can trigger me. When the football is blearing on the radio and I hear his slippers shuffling across the kitchen lino, it reminds me of my adoptive father and produces intense feelings of sadness and even fear in me.

My dh is my best friend and I know we can have a long and happy marriage but he is irritating me so much at the moment. I want him to make more effort with me and for us to have more time together as a couple which is hard with 2 children I know. Anyway must go but would like to add that I really feel I am on the brink of becoming a much happier and confident person. This would not have happened without distance physcally and emotionally from my adoptive parents. It would be like trying to wash and scrub off the last bits of treacle while still standing in the treacle tin (an analogy used by someone else a while ago). So to those people in real life who say things like 'but you only get one mum/dad' and 'you should try to patch things up' I will maybe say this or to quote again a favourite film of mine

sometimes truth is more important than love and acceptance

< He also dumped his vile self loathing onto me. I realise now that a lot of the really nasty things he said were things he thought about himself. He once said that the only reason people liked me was because they didn't know the real me. This, I realise now, was projection >

Roseability, thank you so much for writing that. It's one of those things I have 'known' for a very long time, but never examined (or been able to face?) fully. With the past couple of weeks, writing more here and on the NPD thread, small incidents are coming back to me and presenting themselves in a different light. I want to wail with pain for the girl & woman I have been, absorbing all this crap for fucked-up people; never for a moment realising it wasn't me it was them (ykwim)!

Now I've seen your words written down, perhaps I'll be strong enough to take a responsible attitude to those incidents when I remember them.

One regrettable side-effect is that I'm distancing myself from my family. My mum did a triangulation thing wrt my brother & me at the weekend. I was fairly pleased to note I just batted it off, instead of ringing my brother to ask what's wrong. And I pulled my sister up on one of her routine insults (it's not me, it's her.) I don't want to lose them - I'm loney enough as it is! - but, at least, I'm more informed about the price of interactions with them and, I hope, able to make value judgements over it for the future.

• < I'm loney > - was: "lonely". Although "looney" would also be accurate!

Just feel very sad this evening.
I think it is MIL that triggered these feelings. I came back from work and she was taking care of dd here at home as she is having work done at her house where she normally takes care of dd.
There was a party for ds on after school and as I was working and dh was working late Id asked previously if she could help out by staying a bit longer so I could drop ds off without needing to take dd with me.
She just seemed in a really odd mood when I got in and I ended up feeling frustrated and angry with her because it reminded me of my mum I guess (or so I realise now).
I felt today when I came back home and was rushing around trying to sort out upteen things and there was MIL with her 'odd' mood and it was as though there was this huge pressure on me to take care of 'her' needs.
I begun wondering what was wrong and racking my brains as to what I had done to cause her mood. She was clearly out of sorts with me. She wanted to get home despite agreeing to help out.
It took me back (emotionally) to how it was living with my mum. The constant tension, the atmoshphere, the walking on eggshells. Not clear as to why I was being punished.
This is how it always was for 'me' no-one caring about me or what I needed but the one person who 'above all others' should have cared about what I needed turned things on their head, and made it so 'I'... 'a small child', or teen was responsible for her needs and learnt very quickly that my own needs didnt count.
If I am inside my adult head I know that everyone has off days and MIL was probably having an 'off' day. That although the 'child' me wants to shout and scream that she doesnt give a crap about me, rationally I know that's not true. She had done a lot of 'extra' things today around the house that she didnt have to.
Still it is a reminder of the overwhelming loneliness of not have 'that person' in your life who is 100% about your needs. Someone who totally understands and supports you. That even if you came through the door and stamped your feet and yelled they would get that you had had a bad day and needed a hug or some reasurance. The problem that person doesnt exist for me. Never have. What happened with MIL today is a stark reminder of that very fact.
MIL is not my mother and so I cant expect uncondtional love from her nor can I from my dh but knowing that does not stop me wanting it from these people and feeling sad and disapointed when I have the short sharp burst of a reality check.

Wow, Smithfield. That was startlingly perceptive.

You're right, no adult love is unconditional. I felt (ignore me if I'm wrong) you experienced a conflict between your empathy for MIL and your desire for strokes?

In the ordinary world, such things happen all the time. I wouldn't worry at all about it ... my (ignoreable!) suggestion would be along the lines of: take a few minutes to 'stroke' your self, maybe brush your hair in private or something, until you've got some head space for MIL. Then you can go back down and offer a cuppa or a glassa, and ask her how bad was her day?

That sort of thing. I may sound strangely prescriptive; this is because I had to consciously model it in adult life. At the end of the day, though, all people deserve empathy - including ourselves.
And excluding the nutters in our lives (who deserve it, but are 'unfillable')

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What a beautiful post Thank you. Hope for us all!
xx

Smithfield - sounds like your MIL might have wanted a bit of attention herself or recognition for her help with the DCs and the housework. My MIL is lovely but can go a bit stale if she feels unappreciated. Even though we say thank you, a card, flower, hand made card from the children can make a big difference, well it did with my MIL. My mum on the otherhand, would not respond to such things, she would be in a sulk for days or in a funny mood and sneer at any attempt on my part to appease her (which was all the time when I come to think of it!). And if mum did look after the kids at my home, guaranteed she would have left her mark, like planted a fast growing Periwinkle or Ivy in the garden. Her legacy in my garden lives on!

What I'm trying to say is that it's so easy to think that your MIL is behaving the same way when you are stressed about work and children etc.. it could just be that she was tired or needed a bit of attention herself.

It might feel different tomorrow.

Divingintoeternity-So great to get that post from you. Bit like an unexpected gift at the end of a bad day.
I read with tears in my eyes (good ones) about that beautiful moment with your dd. You should be so proud. Amazing. Looking back at the miles you have walked along such a very long road my dear and some of it quite bleak as I remember.
It makes me believe that all of us were born with a basic make up rather than being born as entirely blank canvasses. I think that because there are parts of our characters like yours diving which have such courage, strength and insight the parts that couldn't be destroyed by those that actually felt threatened by the very existence of such traits.

You and Grace are right (of course). It is sooo foreign to me to be able to 'give' anything to myself. So hard to take care of my own needs. It feels easier having been given permission from you guys. I mean that in ernest. I am off to run a bath. Thanks x

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I don't know if anyone watched Country House Rescue on Channel 4 tonight (I know, my life is an endless social whirl). It was fascinating because it was very much about controlling parents who thought their 40 year old son was a complete waste of space and therefore wanted to sell the stately pile, rather than let him inherit and run a successful business.

I watched and just got so angry on his behalf. I have a real problem feeling anger towards my parents, so it was a powerful experience feeling that surge at the awful way he was treated and how unwarranted it was.

Probably available online via the Channel 4 website - worth a watch for us.

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So I had my bath last night and put lavender drops and lavender bubble bath in.
It was lovely and I went straight to bed after.
I then had the worst nights sleep which was odd I actually began a cold sweat and had intense vivid dreams which and all linked to childhood memories.
It was strange then logging on this morning and reading your post diving wrt not having memories prior to ten.
Partially the dreaming was purely because I am clearly coming down with something flu-like, but it still felt significant.
It wasnt as if I was dreaming about I real memory but it felt like that. It was about me going to meet up (now) with a cousin who I lived with for a year when my parents split.
This stems back to a very significant point in my childhood. A period of time when my dad left us(he was having an affair) and mum took me to live with my aunt. I was only 3/4 years old. I suddenly went from living in our own house to living with an aunt and two older cousins I'd never met and had to sleep in their bed alongside both of them. Up until then my nan had been my main carer but mum fell out with her so I never saw her either for another two years.
It struck me how frightening and chaotic things must have felt.
I never got any warmth or reassurance from my mum during that time. Even when I was sick, I was just left to it, in my aunts bed, I had to keep calling for her but I remember she would only ever come as far as the door.In fact I barely remember her being anywhere near me aparrt from to chastise me once for wetting the bed when she told me I was embarrasing her and once when I went missing she slapped the backs of my legs.
I dont have any memory of my uncle who also lived there and this isn't particularly unusual because he was away a lot with work. He was an alchaholic who used to beat my aunt quite badly when he'd been drinking. He must have been around at some point when we were living there for so long surely. There must of been arguments or times when he came home drunk but I dont remember.
But since last night I remembered one time when my mum sent me off with this uncle and he took me for aim a walk. He took me to the sweet shop and bought me a bag of sweets.
Why did she let me go off alone with someone who had proven time and again to be a complete brute and capable of dreadful physical abuse toward my aunt. Although apparently he was perfectly lovely when not drinking...but does that make it ok? I dont remember him at all. There is no face attached to the memory, I just remember holding his hand and walking along the road to the sweet shop and feeling really happy completely trusting and thrilled when he bought me sweets.
I dont even know why this is significant or why I am writing about it now.
I have no idea where my aunt s now or either of my who I must have became close to at the time. I havent had contact with them for many many years. Last I heard of one of my cousins, he was in prison for the second time, a testament to his dreadful upbrining.
I began to wet the bed during this time and dreamt that I could fly.
I just feel that these period in my life had such a huge impact on me and yet knowing the full extent of what I went through is entirely inaccessible to me.

Diving- After ds was born and when he was about two my mum said, after observing something he'd done; 'He's very stubborn isnt he...you were like that, very wilfull'.
I didnt say it but I thought to myself, well I bet you did everything in your power to knock that out of me didnt you.

Calvados-Sorry I cross posted with you last night. I understand what you are saying. I do often give my Mil gifts. Flowers, luches out, cards and I always say thankyou. Always.
She does what she does for us to fulfil her own needs too. It is 'her; way of getting emotional strokes I guess. She needs to be needed and as I am very independant I have struggled with this at times.
I do think I was projecting on to her last night and Diving was spot on when she said that her mood was probably nothing to do with me. I believe peoples bad moods are always my fault and Im very sensitive to it. My mother had me well trained.
I am getting better and more often than not nowadays I activley tell myself It's probably nothing to do with me. Im learning gradually to stop thinking peoples moods are linked to me. I always felt that because my mother would blame me for her moods and my dads moods and tell me I was the cause.

sorry for all the typos. I am rubbish at editing.

Still lurking, and still getting so much from your wonderful posts, I am off to counselling again myself in a bit, the vessell has really resonated with me! and is something I think I will explore today in counselling along with why mother allowed father to batter me instead of her once I became five, to make her marriage easier for her to stay in all those years, like I was the sacraficial lamb!

Wow - just came across this thread and it really touched a nerve with me. I can't tell you how much of a comfort it is to know that I'm not the only person who had a toxic mother, and a father who did very little to stand up and tell her that her behaviour was wrong. What shocked me even more is that when I have had numerous showdowns with her, she did actually use the Stately home line - I can't believe it!!!
After years of her s**t behaviour, and the way she would make out I was the problem, and try and turn other family members against me when I was trying to tell them how awful she was, I just can't tell you how much comfort I find in reading almost word for word the lies she also used.
Too many events to recount, but I cut myself off for a number of years and made a huge success of my life - I was so happy to not have the hassle of her misery down the telephone. It took a long time, but I worked out which parts of my personality I had inherited from her (manipulation, harshness, emotional immaturity) and changed them myself. I broke that cycle. Partly it was seeing my friends reactions to her, and seeing how they were with their parents. Now I am older, I think it is clearer for my siblings and family to see that I am, in actuality a lucid, intelligent and truthful person - and she has to be careful what lies she spins about how she used to treat me. I think they knew anyway - but no-one ever wanted to step in and help.
I have now reconciled with her as much as I can, as she knows I am happy to cut her out of my life again if she starts 'acting up'. And she is being an excellent Grandmother - perhaps she is making up for what emotion she lacked as a mother. As she feels she has nothing to apologize about, and has reconstructed our past to suit her (what a problem child I was, she was a wonderful mother) I actually get a huge buzz from knowing that I broke the cycle, and have a wonderful relationship with my young babies, husband and his family. Nothing she can do can hurt me again. I laugh at her dramas and uneducated, inelegant personality. I will never forgive her, but I will be damned if I let her legacy pass on to my children, or have to answer questions of 'where is Gran?'. She thinks I have seen the light, and actually somethimes I just enjoy having a 'mother' figure around. It almost feels normal.
But I will never forget her vitriolic behaviour, her emotional mistreatment, her game-playing, her bullying and how I lived in turmoil and fear because of her.
I win!
Thank you for letting me put this down and I hope we can all carry on supporting each other in this way. Thank you so much.

ellie Welcome to the thread and thanks for sharing your experience. Your mother sounds familiar .
I went nc with my mother about two years ago. I somethimes think about wether to (for the sake of the Gcs see her again) I dont feel anywhere near strong enough yet.
I wondered what made you decide to reconcile? Was it just a point that you got to where you felt strong enough to handle it.
I do recognise a whole host of my mothers traits in me and its taken a while to get to a point where I can face up to that.
Its so hard changing negative patterns but its very reassuring to hear it can be done.

mummiehunnie how did the counselling go?