'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

smithfield you put that so succinctly. I think you may have a point about needing a foundation that makes it safe for others to draw on our emotions without making it feel as though they are sucking us dry. However, a mother being jealous of her own daughter goes againts the grain and the natural order of things whatever way you look at it, so creating a foundation is hard. As in normal mother/daughter relationships, that unconditional love is there that enables you to slip up yet return to base before taking off again, knowing that the source of love is still there undiminished. This is so precious and is what allows a child to grow, develop and trust the world. Knowing that once out in the world where there are different kinds of personalities, good and bad you have a solid base where you are loved with all your faults is the safety net that is missing in my life.
I feel too that my DH married an adult child. I have been too concerned in being a good mum and not being like my own.

My DCs deal with jealousy so differently to me. If the green eyed monster is lurking within their friendships, they see it positively, i.e they want what I've got/achieved and see this as a normal human emotion whereas it sickens me!

Thanks everyone. I have apologised and have also told my dad who has been in the same position with my mum as I was.

I spent the afternoon with a friend who didn't know anything about my mother issues and H's gambling. She made me see that I have allowed H to get away with his gambling without any great consequences. She said a very interesting thing that although she likes him she has always thought he behaved like a big child and I need to look after me not another child. Trying to look at it dispassionately I realise she is right and strangely I feel better.

She also said why stay with someone who doesn't love me but I also feel he is damaged and I want to give him chance to heal as well as me. Plus if I ask him to leave it will effect the children whereas just now they seem to be unaware of what we are going through. I think if we try and work through my therapy with us in the same house then make the decision about wether there is something left.

interesting posts folks! you are all doing so well, real smithfield, what you describe makes so much sense, I think that is what I did also, the looking for mother and wanting to meet the needs of others in other women!

I really miss my mother right now, I am weak and softening, but I know she can't be who I want her to be and she won't give me what I want which is why I am softening, thinking that not having me for six months will have made her wake up, I am not strong enough yet!

gosh, it's very difficult keeping up with all the updates !

I'm waiting for my copy of Toxic Parents now & looking forward to reading it.

Reading the updates, I'm wondering how I/we get to move forward...? Lots of people are recognising traits, sore points etc. I frequently get 'stuck' dwelling on my thoughts & then have to go out & find I can snap out..but of course the depth of the feelings are still there, but not at the fore front of my mind.

I think my mum let me down, I don't think she was the best mum as she likes to tell me & when I look back at my personal & professional life, it's glaringly obvious that I wasn't equipped to cope with confrontation/life in general. I've learnt loads from these 'mistakes' (too many to list) & am still learning each day.
Having said all that I do believe she loves me, but has just been weak & hasn't learnt from her parents. I feel she is the 'adult' child/mother.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but maybe somewhere on the lines of not being able to get over something because the reality is too painful ? Half of me wants to shake & scream at my mum for being so stupid (with her false positivism, childishness, over praising) the other thinks I can't be bothered (& I'm going to punish her by keeping me & the DC away form her) because she is unable to grasp the painfulness of the truth ?

It's interesting about several stating looking for the mother in other women. I've been the exact opposite, looking for it in men/other people's families.

sorry for jumping in again -
I need to get my head round something
I have been working through my stuff with my family and the childhood I experienced and the lack of support from any kind of family unit.
I have a much better insight into things now than ever before, and yet I can still be astounded by my mother.
Tonight on the phone she has told me all about her difficult weekend where she has been to see my "aunty" (non biological) as her nephew has been sent to prison for 11 years.
OMG say I - sounds a difficult thing to come to terms with, well it turns out that (I quote) he has been seduced by his 13 year old step daughter and the poor man just didn't know how to say no, she just kept sneaking into his bed for a cuddle as her mother had left the family home due to the relationship breaking down and she felt scared about the future. She did this repeatedly for months apparently and the poor man had no choice, he didn't at any time rape her, it was tender and loving sex a sharing between two lonely and sad people.

My Mum can't get her head round the judges sentence of 11 years and the girl hasn't even been dealt with for her part in it all.

I am ashamed to say that my lack of ability to deal with her has meant that I came off the phone and screamed at my son who was just being a normal 5 year old. We have made up now and I have apologised for being cross with him when it was actually me I was cross with.

Is it really any fucking wonder that I still believe that I am the only person responsible for the incident on the train. I have been bought up (questionable phrase) by people who believe a 13 year old at fault when her step father repeatedly rapes her!!!!

I feel so sick inside, I have to remember that ancestral voices are not necessarily honest or true and can be ignored, disregarded. (I am really trying but tonight it is very very hard)

I am the same. I dont have good relationships with other women I think because I expect them to let me down as well. Even to the point of finding a male counsellor, which perhaps wasn't facing up to things but at least made me comfortable. I feel more comfortable in the company of men and have adopted uncles rather than mothers.

Certainly for me I have come to the realisation that I can't make my mum admit what she was responsible for and in reality would it make a difference if she did. What I can do is try to find a way of dealing with her that does hurt me or mine.

Has anyone here experienced any real acceptance of responsibility, or real remorse from their toxic parents? Or acceptance of the situation from denying family?

Its not something I have thought possible for a long time, although I still dream about my frustration with them. I wake up sometimes feeling exasperated, and all I can remember is that whatever my dream was, its turned into my screaming at my mother (normally) trying to get her to understand how she has hurt me.

I don't think I honestly believe that my siblings will ever accept that our parents are responsible for how messed up we all are. They are too tied up in the system of lies and bribery that - even as a distant outsider these days - I can see them being caught in, to consider that perhaps they should be examining their childhoods instead of lying to themselves about them.

Its very sad

bythepowerofgreyskull, I know where you are coming from with the shouting at your son. I understand it's called displacement.

Perhaps - for your son (which may give you some inner strength) you could ring your mother & say something like, it's just sunk in that what she has said, & you'd like to say that you entirely agree with the judge etc etc. Don't be angry, but do give her your opinion & then say, oh must go, so she doesn't have chance to reply.
There is a book I found very helpful, called the Dance Of Intimacy. Your mother won't like it, but it'll be the first step in addressing your past & changing the pattern of your future.

Sal7369, I think that it would make a HUGE difference if your mum took responsibility...please don't under estimate that. For me, it would mean closure.

My siblings have sort of validated my experience, and so has my mum. Sorrow but no remorse. Just thinking I really should do more to validate the siblings in return, but don't know how to! I'm the only one exploring the problem.

My mum once quite a lot of years ago said she knew she had made mistakes bringing me up. In reality this is as much as I will ever get as she has a very selective memory as far a these things go. I sometimes wonder if she has a split personality disorder the normal her and the abusive her. One thing I realise is I have to realise I cant change her only my reactions to her so she can't hurt me anymore.

Dont I sound like ive got it sorted, you wouldn't think I was crying at my friends kitchen table this afternoon.

ChairmumMiaow- my mother still maintains everything she did was for me, inbetween her saying how bad I am and that she is entitled to access to her grandchildren.

Silly cow.

Thank God I don't have to see her anymore.

Horrendous, Greyskull. I can just about imagine your frustration!

You know, it made me wonder ... if this happened to your mother, and she considered herself responsible? Several of my mum's mannerisms (of speech & behaviour) make me suspect she was sexualised too young. Impossible, of course, her parents were very religious and pillars of respectability

Chairmum, I have a great friend who was an awful parent to her oldest daughter, and I think it is the way that she has accepted responsibility for her daughters problems and her lack of nurture that attracts me to her as a friend,
she says all the things about her daughter that I want my parents to say about us. Thankfully in the last couple of years both my siblings have come to the understanding I have about our parents and our closeness makes my mother mad, sh has always worked on a divide and conquer rule with us lying to each of us about the other, in order to keep control and that doesn't work any more.
I guess with your siblings it will just be a case of knowing that you are there with a big safe blanket to catch them at the point that their eyes are opened and they allow them selves to recognise the truth.

Our parents currnetly deny that there was any physical abuse in the family and that they believe that they were model parents.. hey I feel that I will show them and keep them involved enough to see what good enough parenting is ( by no means model parenting though ) and it will be miles and miles away from how we were treated.

CIAF - I have just chatted to DH and I am decided that I will not discuss it with her further. If she brings the subject up in the future I will tell her that I understand how hard it is for Aunty (* and that all rapists have families for whom it is a nightmare.

Sal, my mum carries two sets of opposing beliefs & feelings within her. It must be very difficult! You might be encouraged to hear we have had Those Conversations now - she reverts to default afterwards, but I have at least been able to tell her my true feelings.

It's tricky, isn't it. Glad you have such a good friend!

ChairmumMiaowGoingItAlone I have those exact dreams too...I think I maybe taking swipes at her too..perhaps not landing any. It must be the subconscious working out the frustration - which is good.

I've looked back at older posts but am not sure what has happened with your siblings ? I don't have that problem because I am an only child.

greyskull I think these women (our mothers) are still such powerful forces in our lives. I see mine as some kind of all powerful giant weilding her force and opinions over me. In my minds eye she still has enough power to completely destroy me.
I have to remind myself that I have the power now. She cant hurt me or control me anymore. But It's a hard concept to absorb. This is why she still evokes such a strong reaction in me.

mummiehunnie- I really relate to what you are going through. It is exactly how I felt myself a few years ago when I begun to let go of the myth that my mother was a good mother and everything was OK.
It is such a difficult part of the whole process.
It is grief that you are feeling at the moment. No one enjoys grieving but it is a crucial part of 'letting go' of something.
Its incredibly painful but its also necessary if you are ever to begin healing in ernest.
How you are feeling now is (in reality) how you always felt on the inside (sorry quoted from exotic, but it really helped me when she wrote it)

My mother has never admitted to any wrong doing and I have let go now of the fantasy I once had that she ever will.
I also relate to the recurring dreams. I had them practically every night when I hit my late teens early twenties. I remeber it was always about floods and storms and my silent screaming at my mother.
Although I barely have them anymore.. now and again I do and I am usually back there living with them (my parents) and it's a painful reminder of how unloved/uncared for I felt. It clearly still hurts me.
My Father has/appears to be trying to make amends currently but he doesnt verbalise it and I doubt he ever will.
I suppose it's something though. I have to be honest with myself all the time about it because I have this need to try and win his approval. I want to try and see it for what it is to break away from the habit of trying to gain his attention and win his love.
I rationalise that he will never be the father I once desperately needed him to be but at least now he is trying to be a 'good enough' dad and I accept that.
I think that if my mother admitted to anything at all she would be doing something so utterly out of character i.e putting her daughters needs first. It will never happen.

caughtinafog - my siblings both defend my parents and are very close to them. My sister has said for years since my mother was diagnosed with bi-polar that basically everything was down to that, and now she's being treated we should forgive and forget.

My brother was more vehement about hating my mother than me, for years, but then a couple of years ago left his wife and went back to our family and claimed that he was pushed into that by his wife. Actually he just needed someone who would support his cheating, and they provided that, and a ton of financial support since.

I find their reactions harder than my parents' most of the time, because they lived through it too, and I can see how it affects them and don't know how they can ever improve their lives without accepting that.

Sorry, am going to jump in because I just need to get some things out of my head. Will go back and read recent posts after.

Re my friend I have already talked about on here. I feel she has affected me in a bad way, not as bad but in a similar way to when I would spend time with my parents and DH would say I was a different person afterwards. I think I 'absorbed' the friend's negative energy and things she said are still going round in my head, 3 days after I met her. She was very negative about everything, not only things I said but about other people, other friends of hers who I have never met. She doesn't seem to have grasped that everyone has their own way of doing things and we all enjoy different things. If it is something she personally does not enjoy she is sneery and contemptuous.

So I need to think about whether I should see her again.

The other thing is that I saw my new therapist and burst into tears about things I didn't even know I was upset about. It showed me that there is still a lot of stuff buried inside that I need to deal with. Therapist said that I was good an 'intellectualising' but I needed to get in touch with my feelings as well. I know she is right. I know there is probably a lot of stuff up to the age of 10 that I have not yet 'processed' because I have been in denial, until now, about there being any 'bad stuff' during the early years. But I know there was; the sexual abuse happened before I was 10 so there was bound to have been other stuff as well. I only have a handful of memories though from that time so am wondering how I can process stuff that I am not consciously aware of?

Perhaps the answer to remembering exotic is in the words of your therapist...

...stop looking for the 'events' and try to remember the feelings first?

When was I happy as a child?

Then allow yourself to feel things attached to being happy...such as smiling, laughter, the feel of sunshine on your skin etc - sometimes this prompts an image of earlier times.

Then maybe start the hard stuff...

When was I sad/angry as a child....

..the imagery here can be very strong though so be careful. xx

Oh and on the subject of dreams...all through my childhood I dreamt I could fly and that I was a kung fu expert!

I think that says more about my childhood than any descriptions of abuse I could give.

Still catching up with you all, you are all doing so well x

I am feeling better, feeling confused though, regarding other people, feel like I have been learning a whole new language (relating to others and stopping old behaviour patters) and that I am working more in adult, rather than the terrified child I reverted to over the last three years, I think I was mostly child and parent most of my former life with little adult in there, the adult is there so much of the time now, and I feel less scared and confused by the world, I dont' feel like I am not ok anymore, and I am doing my very best to treat others like they are ok too, I am thinking things through so much more also, less knee jerk reactions!

MM thank you. Even memories of the feelings are very few as well. Although they are there though. Even as I write there are loads popping into my head.

I remember a couple of photos of me as a child, age about 8 perhaps. I had slight eczema then which in itself tells me I had buried painful stuff as a very young child, not only after the age of 10. Perhaps I am just not ready to deal with the stuff from when I was younger than 10. Because 10 and under is primary school age and it's just too painful to think about DD who is 6 and her friends experiencing what I did. Maybe I could cope with knowing I was abused from the age of 10 as that is a bit older, but to think of a child so young experiencing and witnessing abuse and neglect just doesn't bear thinking about.,

DD and her friends are so innocent, vulnerable and such complete trust in the adults around them, whether parents or teachers etc, that those adults will never harm or hurt or exploit them in any way, to think about the trust of a young child being so completely betrayed by her own parents is so heartbreaking.

Yesterday after school DD and DS treated me to a 'dance show' after school. They have recently started listening to The Beatles courtesy of DH and took it in turns to dance whilst I watched. It was wonderful, funny, exhilarating and just so amazing to watch their completely uninhibited dancing, they didn't mind if I laughed at some of their 'moves'. It was one of those magical moments that makes it all worthwhile. But I can't remember doing anything like that as a child. I think I became so inhibited, even from a very early age, to just be myself, an exhuberant, funny, affectionate, child, just like my DC's, because of my parents. I don't remember any hugs, laughter, or fun with my parents. The only good happy memories I have from the age of below 10 are with people outside my immediate family ie school friends, cousins, etc. I think I was very unhappy at home, from a very young age. Even when my dad wasn't around, things were no better with my mother. I don't remember any good time with her, not a single one. I only remember her being cross and irritated with me, feeling like I exasperated her and she simply did not like me or like being with me.

I have got some unhappy memories with her, in the form of flashback pictures in my head, but there are no feelings associated with those memories. That is what I need to do, try and get in touch with that child and how she felt then.

I am feeling stronger genrally. Being assertive in little ways and finding social interactions less tiring and more enjoyable because I don't go over and over every little thing that was said and doubt myself. I feel less need to be liked by everybody and am starting to find my true self and feel comfortable with that. I am finally breaking away from my adoptive parent's control

However I too still need to get in touch with that child. I too cannot remember much, only snippets and rarely emotions. I too have a sense that I have repressed a lot and it needs to be remembered and dealt with. I have just ordered Alice Miller because I have heard her mentioned on here a few times. Having just read some reviews of her work, it sounds like her writing could be really useful to me. I still have this uneasy sense that sexual boundaries were crossed but I can't remember anything concrete and I am not sure if I want to. I still doubt myself and wonder if it is all in my head. It is almost as if I don't believe anyone could do that, or certainly not anyone I know. But I do know it can be done. You only have to read the papers or watch the news to know that sexual abuse and abuse of children in general happens every day.

I have told my dh about some of my doubts and he has been supportive and also does not doubt for a second that my adoptive father is capable of such things. In his view he has always been a bit 'creepy' and inappropiate about women and girls. It makes me shudder to think he works in a school. He is always going on about how girls have to have a witness with them if they are alone in a room with a male teacher. According to him it is to protect the teacher - I think he might find it is to protect the child because abuse does happen. I went to a very respectable school and the head of our English department was fired because he owned child pornographic images.

Why is this abuse relatively common and often by someone known to the child? I think it all lonks back to Narcissism. I am beginning to think this is the worst affliction in humans. It explains a lot from hitler to all kins of abuse

Rose, I know what you mean about doubting yourself and thinking it is all in your head.

Since I had my realisation about the sexual abuse by my father, I felt like I had let down my inner child. Because I had so firmly believed for so long that there had been no abuse by my dad until I was 10, I felt I had effectively told my inner child I did not believe her when she told me she had been abused by my dad before she was 10.

And now I am starting to feel the same about all the other abuse that went on before I was 10, that if I continue to deny it, it is almost like a child in RL coming up to me and telling me she is being hurt and abused and me, as an adult, telling her I don't believe her and that she is lying/exaggerating/mistaken.

I need to be the parent that that child never had and so it is my duty to look after and believe her and no longer continue to force her to be alone with her experiences and try to cope with them alone. I need to make things better for her and that starts with me believing her, even if she can't tell me every detail about what happened to her. She is still just a very young child and cannot always explain exactly why or how she felt sad, scared, unhappy because she was too young to understand what was going on. But she does know she felt very alone, and scared and uncared for by her parents and I need to believe her about this.

I understand now why, even after all the work I have done so far on myself, I still did not always feel a real bond between me and DD, and sometimes find it hard to feel my love for her. It is because I have not had any empathy or love for myself when I was a young child, under the age of 10, because all this time I have been denying that she went through anything bad or painful before she was 10.

I think even opening up my mind to the idea that I was abused before the age of 10 is a huge step for me, one I have been resisting for ages.