'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Hi Marshamallow

I may be a bit early into depression to help in that sense but what I do know about is studying, I work for a uni responsible for 200 odd students.

Are you sure what your negative voice is not just your fears coming out. You have done so much of the course and you are scared you may not pass it or may not do as well as you feel you should. Its something that happens for a lot of late learners, and if you don't have a sympathic educational advisor who you can tell your fears to it can destroy your chance of ever completeing.

I am not saying that your depressin isn't a factor as it undoubtably is but fear is just as large a part.

Realistically what will happen if you finish it badly? The worse thing is you will fail and have to resit or find soemthing you are better suited too.

What will happen if you don't finish? You will be on the cycle of self loathing because you couldn't finish.

I can't tell you what to do but I think by writing this you are acknowledging what an effect not finishing the course is having on you.

Hi Sal

I thought the reasons you suggest were what was happening in the beginning, the first time I faltered...but I have always been an adult studier....and passed many courses through the OU. So came to the conclusion fear of success wasn't the issue - I maybe wrong though.

The only difference with the current course is that I shared my enthusiasm for it with the real life owner of my negative voice...once I had their approval of my choice, ie they offered to pay for the course....to control me through money...that was when I hit my hurdle.

First of all I accepted the money...then they showed their true colours by constantly telling me how good the course would be for me and I should be able to finish it soooooo quickly....then everything changed they started to ask why I was taking so long (it was only a month into the course) and if they were paying for this they expected certain standards not abject laziness!!

At this point I returned the course fees.

Now I am stuck with this passive/aggressive nonsense...where I so want to do the course but due to knowing it will please my negative voice....I just can't seem to get going properly.

Ah, so part of you doesn't want to finish because it would please them? Realistically after 2 years finishing the course now would be you decision, not theres but I have a similar M who would claim it was all down to them what I had achieved however small their part in it was.

How about changing course, you may be able to carry across some of the work you have done already to another course with a different provider so you know you did it for yourself by yourself.

Wether you can carry your work or not you have not lost the learning.

Marshamallow, I recognise some of this. The teenage rebel in you is trying to prove so hard how much she doesn't care, to the extent that she is sabotaging your adult self.

If it were me, I would try very hard to get into my adult head and tell myself I do care - but care for me, the person I am now. Then make yourself do 15 minutes; even if you just sit there staring at the coursework. Do this everyday and start desensitising yourself to it. Keep getting back into the adult head, if you are anything like me you will be dissociating all over the place. I like the trick of having an elastic band on your wrist that you ping or stamping your foot on the ground to bring you back.

I ran away from the adult me many times - literally. Once before I knew what was happening, I was working for a shoe firm in Sydney. I sat there one day and thought 'why on earth am I here?'

Hi Sal

I did think about changing courses, but my intuition is telling me my answer is to finish this course. Allowing the owner of my negative voice to influence my life path through their games seems as if I would be giving them control again?

Somehow I believe that if I can face this situation head on and get past it, I will have changed the 'script' of my upbringing to such an extent that my self-sabotaging will be largely past.

So, thinking back to your last post, yes there maybe some fear involved, the fear of breaking a lifetimes conditioning to behave a certain way into a different and unknown me? That does sound a bit scary doesn't it!

I am rambling, sorry, but thank you for listening to my ramblings anyways, as you have given me lots to think about.

QueenofWhatever

"dissociating all over the place..."

Yup...this is definitely what I am doing...so love the idea of the elastic band and short burst focusing, together with having 'a word' with my child/teenage rebel self to be quiet so my adult self can do what she needs to! Thank you.

MM, I think you are completely on the right track wrt continuing with your course and thus changing the 'script' of your life. I think this is what I have been doing a lot, situations that are very similar to childhood up to a certain point, after which there is a very different ending to that in the childhood 'script'. (Love that word, fits in perfectly with Alice Miller's "Drama" of the Gifted Child).

And I can so relate to the 'rebel' in you. That is exactly how I became when growing up. I would do just the opposite of what my parents' wanted, even if what they wanted was actually the best thing for me. I think I am still like that now sometimes. There is something in me that hates being told what to do by anyone and somehow, knowing that if I did 'x' it would be approved of, makes me do 'y' instead.

I can only write a somewhat blathery post in answer to your truly superb relies above! Thank you, everybody

Blathery because I'm at something of a wtf??! phase in my own recovery (at least, I hope it's recovery). MM, do you know I experienced exactly what you described, last night! We seem to be singing the same carol at the moment. Yes, the nagging voice is still my Dad's. It's not as if I haven't recognised this and worked on it - CBT, talking therapy, positive action, self-affirmation, you name it. It was so embedded, I had to spend most of my therapeutic efforts on getting past Dad's criticism of the therapy, arrghh! I can't say any of the methods worked particularly well: I merely ended up feeling stuck. It recently dawned on me that I'm behaving passive-aggressively ... stubbornly not doing anything. Until your remark the other day, I felt I was rebelling against myself and couldn't see any way forwards.

You were right; my task master is still my Dad. So I heard that, and chose an approach to try and work with/through it - more of that in a minute. OK, so last night I changed all of my bed linen (been putting it off for a while.) My bed is very much "MY" thing: it's something my parents gave little thought to (apart from making it up Army-style, which I stopped as soon as I left home) and I've developed my own rather luxurious preferences. So, anyway, I made it up all clean, puffy & beautiful, stood back to admire my work ... and there was Dad.

Just as you described, the voice in my head has changed tack!!! I "heard" myself, thinking me-type thoughts about how lovely it all is - and I "heard" what Dad would have said: he would have admired it, but in a sort of bewildered & smarmy way, which is how he responded to the better aspects of my life after I left home. He was an odd fish.

For the benefit of newcomers to this thread: I'm not hallucinating my Dad's voice - I don't hear it as a sound - but what I'm describing is more visceral than simply imagining what he would have said. It comes unbidden, and demands attention.

Anyway, MM, I am choosing to take this as a good sign! If my "inner Dad" responded to my thoughts about its criticisms by coming over all nice (as far as he knew how), then I conclude my thoughts must have some merit - and this is its last-ditch attempt to retain its space in my head. Hope I'm right!

I can't claim to have an actual plan in place - but my thoughts were all around compassion - empathy, gentleness and care. (Sound familiar, Sal?) I'm reading Paul Gilbert's "The Compassionate Mind". It's a packed and very enlightening book - Gilbert is a highly-regarded professor of psychology. I'm less than a quarter of the way through it, so I can't claim to know what it's all about yet. Sometimes, changes begin to happen as a result of reading and, with this book, I feel it's happening.

He has something interesting to say about depression.

As babies, we have a set response to "losing" our caregivers. First we cry. We try really, really hard to get the caregiver's attention. If that fails, we then go silent. Gilbert points out that this is a very useful survival method (therefore, evolved within us): As a small and lonely mammal in a cold, hard world full of predators, when no friendly assistance comes, the safest thing to do is to crawl back into the cave and sit there quietly.

As adults in the modern world, we still cry & scream for assistance - Gilbert characterises this as "yearning", and I have certainly made a great deal of noise when yearning for the love I couldn't get . Following on from that, depression is the back-of-the-cave, stay silent response.

I need to do some more reading and work around this, obviously. I am doing the tiny chunks thing with my tasks ... but I've done it so many times before, I will only do my 'chunks', now, when I can do them with love & tenderness, and free of inner judgement, no matter whose voice is judging or how they wish to judge!

Gonna take a while. I'm optimistic.

Gosh...I did open a can of worms didn't I??!

Anyhoo...off to try to catch my 'worms' and get them in some sort of order.

I haven't much else to say....I've come over a bit emotional at being validated...soppy old fool that I am.

Talk again soon exotic, Grace and anyone else lurking...hopefully with some positive news. xx

Feel like I have got myself together a bit more today. Read up a bit about depression and the effects of childhood. Spoke to husband and think got somewhere. He seems to be trying to try.

But now I am on my own as he has gone to meet a friend to talk about things. He did ask if it was ok with me and I said yes...I could hardly say no. But I am worried, this friend and I had problems years ago and although H says he thinks highly of me I do worry about the result of this meeting.

What do you fear could result from their meeting, Sal?

Sorry to jump in about something completely different. Just need to write things out to try and work it out in my head.

Met my 'voyeur' friend yesterday. We didn't talk about my family issues really so I didn't get the sense she was being voyeuristic yesterday. But something she said really, really annoyed me. And now I'm wondering if she triggered something. But if so, I can't work out what.

We were chatting about me having some family over to our house perhaps this summer for a BBQ or something. Not parents and sisters, but some cousins who are a similar age to me and who have DC's similar ages to my DC's. She asked me what if I invited these cousins over and they didn't come because I had not been to any family events (weddings, birthday parties etc) over the last few years (due to my issues and not feeling up to facing any family member whether immediate or extended).

I found myself getting really really angry with my friend and I'm not sure why. I got angry, not so much at the thought that my cousins wouldn't come over if I invited them because I hadn't been to any of their events over the past few years, but that my friend thought my cousins would act in what I see as a very petty, childish and tit for tat manner.

None of the extended family know the real reason why I have not attended family events over the past few years. Even before the last few years whilst I have been dealing with my family issues, I would not always go to each and every family event and nor would every cousin attend either. On my part I just assume that everyone leads a busy life and can't always attend every family event and I would never not go to an event just because that person did not come to my event if I had had one before. Everyone has young DC's who could have been ill etc meaning a cousin could not attend some family 'do'.

I know my cousins would not be so petty. We all grew up together and spent loads of good times together as children and I feel we have a bond that goes back way beyond events of the last few years. Perhaps my friend is completely unaware of this, I am sure she is actually. But I know my cousins would come to my house if I invited them and they could make it and if they couldn't come I am extremely doubtful if it would be because I may not have attended something they had invited me to.

This particular friend however does seem to behave in this petty, childish way. She told me last time I met her that she wasn't going to go and visit a friend of hers who had just had a baby because "She didn't come and visit me when I had my DD". So she clearly takes it very badly if something like that happens whereas I am not offended in the slightest if someone didn't visit me when I had my DC's, if I could make it I would still go and visit that friend when she had her DC.

I simply cannot stand this, or any type of, what I see as petty, childish behaviour. And I got really annoyed with my friend for even suggesting that people (my cousins) would behave like that. She clearly would and does behave like that but not everyone does and I was just very annoyed that she was trying to tar people with her brush.

I am still not clear in my own mind as to why I got so annoyed with my friend though. We were just having a 'theoretical' discussion about the possibility of (some) of my cousins perhaps not attending my BBQ, because I had not attended their BBQ last year or something.

Why would I get so annoyed about something like that? Perhaps I was annoyed from the last time we met when she told me she had not visited her friend who had just had her first DC. But why should I get annoyed about that? It was nothing to do with me.

I am very puzzled about my reaction.

This is the same friend who was very negative about a holiday I had booked and excitedly told her about. I am sure she was jealous. I get the sense sometimes she is jealous of her younger sister who is very well off and goes off on nice holidays a couple of times a year, whereas my friend is not nearly as well off and cannot afford such holidays. I am sure she was similarly jealous of me when I told her about my holiday plans. Naively, i thought, because she was a 'friend', that she would simply be happy for me when I told her about my holidays. Particularly as she knows what a nightmare I have been through over the last few years whilst dealing with my family issues and also that we have not been on a family holiday for many, many years.

I suppose all of the above is adding up to a picture of a person with many unresolved childhood issues of her own which are being transfered/projected onto me. I am still learning how to deal with these things when they happen without getting angry/upset myself. Learning to recognise that it's the other person who is acting out their issues on me, and not me who has said/done something wrong to deserve the nasty/upsetting comments. It's very hard. I clearly have a long way to go yet before I do not get so upset by these things.

I get that you don't need a reply, Exotic, so feel free to ignore my comments!

Yes, I agree she shows signs of having unresolved issues herself. Possibly she finds you helpful as an echo chamber for her own fears and resentments. You seem to have done a pretty good job of recognising that; don't put yourself down!

I wonder if your anger had anything to do with feeling judged? As in: she "judged" you as having "failed" in your family visiting duties?

You seem to violently dislike tit-for-tat social behaviours, and to passionately defend your more laissez-faire approach. I'm not saying anything's wrong or right there, but would be interested to hear whether you know why you're so strongly wedded to this view?

HI Grace, the friend also had a mother with depression and a mixed up childhood. I guess I am scared he tells H that he is better off without me. Not sure no can't cope without him when I am trying to sort myself out.

Exotic, I am sorry to hear about the effect your friend had on you, I agree with grace, that they seem to be her own issues and not yours!

With regards to your feedback to me regarding people finding it hard to cope with you when you change, I think it is like I am almost testing people and not so much picking fights with them to see their reaction, as I genuinley don't feel I am, but I am standing up for myself and not following old patterns of behaviour, so they are getting frustrated and eventually abusive, as for example they will moan to me about their life for me to feel sorry for them, which I do, now I say I am sorry that you feel that your life is hard for you, and I am sorry that you ....... and then I say at the end of the day the anger you are feeling is about yourself and your issues and you attempting to take it out on me is not going to work, that sort of thing, I suppose the thing is that these people don't do this face to face, it is over internet or text etc so it is easier to be nasty!

The latest nasty one I could tell she was angry when she was with me as she wanted to control me to do something that was not true and I refused it was over a missing receipt, I said that the letter (for a voluntary organisation we both give time to and I left after the leaders oh called me names for something realted to her and the leader then scapegoated me to hide her oh's abuse... and I think the leader has been winding up this other lady for months as I have avoided them all, only responding to texts, I think they feel that they are hurting me when I am glad to be away from them as they all seem to have problems) anyways I wrote in the letter what was the truth of events (she has been for months trying to get me to take responsibility for the lost receipt, which I said I would double check I had not got, but I genuinley don't know if she or I lost the receipt!) I looked and I took a long time to look for it and said I was sorry for that, but i would not take responsibility for loosing it only half, she went nuts, wanted me to write another letter, I refused, she said well I am not siginng that letter then, I said well you don't have to it was my letter, you can write your own letter, she was fuming, she pushed it down and was fine with me, then later that night she wrote me a scathing email, she could not put her finger on why she was angry with me in her first email, which was interesting so I told her in my response, it was because she could not control me! I also think part of it was jealousy, as I have a lovely house in a nice area and she commented on how lovely it was, and she lives in a council flat, I had known her for over a year and never mentioned anything about my home, so I think she was taken aback, I didn't say anything about jealousy but I think it was part of the problem for her also! continually she got more and more nasty, I responded by pushing the issues back on to her, she kept saying she would not respond further, but she kept responding getting nastier and transferrring all sorts, it was sad really, I wrote in the first two I thought she was lovely, and that she was a decent person, yet she still got nasty with me, I then thought afterwards about her and realised she was a covert manipulator, and that her best mates mental health problems are porbably exaserbated by her messing with her, transferring etc... sad really!

The thing is I am almost testing people, and I don't like what I am seeing in them, I was such a doormat, they can't cope with me standing up for myself and pushing what I used to accept back on them, as they have me pegged as someone and they are confused etc and that makes them angry!

Sal, well done re the counselling and ad's!

MM self sabotage is something I have been thinking about re clumbsy, I am double checking why I don't plan my moves first and how I manage to knock things over, and it has imporved so much since I have been councious!

I do wonder if the self sabotage is that you picked a course you would not complete, instead of something that you would have enjoyed and completed, and the I will finish it to prove something to myself is like some sort of failure proof to you! There is something empowering about throwing something like that away, and doing something different that you really want to do this time!

Sal, my love, this friend has tremendous insight into the pain of depression and also feels affectionately towards you and your H. He sounds like a good choice!

Assuming that everybody thinks badly of you is part of your depression ... so is assuming you can't cope. Remember to love & care for yourself! What can you do, now, that's nice for you?

Thanks Grace it great just to be able to say whats going on in my head. I am going to put my feet up and try to watch some TV with a good cup of tea. Not the most exotic night but at least its for me.

exotictraveller why are you friends with her? She sounds like an emotional vampire.

Grace, thanks for your post. I am still thinking about why I hold the opinions I do about petty tit for tat behaviours. Although maybe the answer is in the question. I dislike those behaviours precisely because they are tit for tat, childish and petty. If a friend cannot visit me for a good reason why on earth would I be offended by that? Particularly if in other ways and over time they have been a good friend. Surely we all need a bit of leeway now and again if we are really friends?

But I doubt very much my friend is similarly thinking about why she is so affronted and offended if a friend of hers does not come to visit her, even if for a perfectly good reason, that she in turn will not go to visit that friend when the occasion arises.

Queenof, thank you also for your question. It is something I have been thinking about myself today. She is actually somebody I have known for a very long time, around 30 years, (we are both 40) and during that time we have at times been quite close friends and other times drifted apart quite a bit. She got in touch with me out of the blue about 18 months ago afer a long period of very little contact between us (we hadn't fallen out just drifted apart) and I ended up via email mostly, telling her all about my family issues etc. At that time I had very few people I felt I could talk to in RL about all my 'stuff' and I think I was just desperate for someone to talk to. Anyway, she responded very compassionately and sympathetically and non-judgmentally and so we started meeting up and became quite close again. She has been through some very traumatic and difficult things herself (infertility, late miscarriage) and seemed to have a lot of empathy and understanding for me. Although, as I have metioned already, there was, I felt an element of 'voyeurism' about her, a bit like a 'catastrophe tourist' iykwim? But because she was at least one RL friend who I could talk to about my stuff and also as she knows my family as I have known her for so long, it found it quite helpful to talk to her about my issues.

But, as I have been getting better and stronger and recovering from my past, I think she is almost feeling 'threatened' or 'insecure' or something. I think she felt comfortable when my life seemed to be in ruins and in comparison hers looked pretty good. But more recently my life has picked up a lot, because I feel so much healthier mentally and emotionally, I am much more positive and optimistic etc, I think she might be feeling inferior or insecure about her own life as she might now be feeling that her life is actually worse than mine, simply because of the progress I have made with my issues in the 18 months since she and I have been in touch.

I think she was a friend I had for a 'reason' (ie from the phrase that one has friends for a 'reason, or a 'season' or a 'lifetime) and she was attracted to me as a friend also for her own reason. But on my part now, the 'reason' is no longer there so much. I have more people in RL I can talk to about my stuff, and I have far less need to talk about my stuff anyway as I feel so much better, and am also much better at coping with my 'down' times, than I was 18 months ago.

Sorry, that was probably a far longer answer than you were anticipating, but I think I needed to post this response for myself as well.

Just a bit more to add. Perhaps my friend's 'reason' for becoming a closer friend to me 18 months ago was due to her own feelings of inferiority and/or insecurity about her own life. Hearing about my issues might have made her feel better about herself as in comparison her issues were nowhere near as bad as mine. (Although she had problems with ttc for a long time, she now has a lovely DD who is nearly 3, so in a sense her problems are now behind her).

I get the sense from her that she feels inferior to her younger sister who is prettier and richer than her. And I have known her long enough to be able to see that her feelings very likely go a long way back into her childhood.

I share your feelings about tit-for-tat relationships, but it doesn't piss me off quite as strongly as you, iyswim. However, some of your anger might easily be due to generalised irritation with your friend.

She sounds like a bit of an emotional leech. As you say, you probably served a purpose for one another. As you heal, the 'reason' fades away. Never mind.

One of the most toxic friends I had was also my longest-standing best friend. We lived together, socialised together and even worked together briefly. She's the one who turned out to be "Single White Female"! After she'd literally stolen my life, she showed her true colours (ie, totally insane) - but she is still close to all my old friends so, although I've not been in contact with her for 6 or more years, she is still a blockage in my life.

This woman makes a great listener, always there with a bottle of something and a flow of harsh-but-funny jokes, to ease the pain of the secrets you share with her. She's always there in a crisis. She's a narcissist.

It was a very long time before I understood what's going on with her - though, surprise, surprise, I'd chosen to overlook many warning signs that had made me catch my breath. (Thanks for the training, Mum )

I'm not saying your friend is like her; I don't know her or the ins & outs of your relationship. Just trying, I suppose, to affirm that it hurts a lot to see a close friendship crumble before your eyes ... and that, if it crumbles as you heal, it's an unhealthy relationship.

It still hurts, though.

What have I done?

H came back after I had gone to bed last night. I went in to speak to him this morning and he said h is friend had made him realise he was being unfair to me by not seeing if he could love me again after I find myself. But I couldn't leave it at that and got him to agree to trying again at the marriage now. Then he got really angry with me and said that all the old feelings of despair had come back and he couyldn't forgive me for my behaviour.

We left it with him agngry and me backing down and saying I would accept the original statement.

Why can't I just leave things alone. I feel so lost. How can I find the real me with all this happening around me? Part of me thinks I should just ask him to leave but I am too scared to do that cause he may never come back.

Sorry everyone I feel bad that this is a bit of a take take relationship with the chat room just now. I am going to see a friend today but its tough as she doesn't know about any of this, she know I don't really get on with my mum but not why.

Sal - your situation sounds a lot like mine. I pushed and pushed my H until he admitted he didn't love me, and that changed everything for me.

I asked him to move into a separate rooms, then a week later to move out, and it was the best thing I did. He wasn't ready to work on our marriage because of his own feelings, and nothing I was going to do was going to change that. Now he's gone I'm feeling much better because what I am doing is all for me and DS. H and I are both working on our own problems, and we'll see later down the line if we can work on things together, but for the moment we're just communicating about money and DS and things are much easier.

I'm not saying it is the right thing for you necessarily, but if your H isn't being any help to you or is making you feel worse, you might find it helps to find some space.

The way I see it, if the marriage is going to be any good, we both have to want to make it work - it can't be all about me pressuring him as that hasn't worked so far! If we're going to sort things out, he'll want to come back. In the meantime I'm happier than I have been in a long time, and I didn't think I would be.

Sorry have been just lurking the last few days. Reading the posts re 'friends' brings me back to an earlier issue I posted regarding daughters of NMs and friendships. Due to our conditioning and lack of trust I find it hard to find a balance in friendships. I think subconsciously I have impossible expectations of a friend i.e should they demonstrate even a tiny bit of jealousy it's the end, that the friendship in some way innately flawed and cannot run the full course. The litmus test is always when something goes right for me, whether the friend is genuinely happy or has some comment to make that does not sit comfortably with me.
Exotic I have a similar situation with a friend for a 'reason' who I met at work. It is starting to fizzle out yet for the last three years while I went through my problems with my DM she was a brilliant listener and I too was there for her dreadful relationship issues and abandonment. However, I was always weary of letting her know too much about my marriage and business affairs. Late last year this friend found out that I had more than one property through a mutual friend and said that she was now looking into buying a second property (she has no money) and would I tell her how much money I was making from it? I declined to answer and she left it at that. A few weeks later, comments were made about a holiday I was about to take and how much did it cost me?! I have never asked anyone how much they paid for their holiday or any thing else for that matter. Again I shook it off and said, an arm and a leg. I am now a SAHM with adult children. My friend makes comments occasionally that her goal when she finds a new partner will be to stay at home like me. As Grace mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not sure whether it is general irritability on my part or whether it has run it's course and the 'friend' is now showing her true colours or that I have only wised up to it now as she has served her purpose. I am genuinely fond of this friend but I feel that she failed 'the test' that I always set for people. I just cannot handle jealousy at all and it is because my own NM was jealous of her daughter that it rattles my cage. It's almost as if I want to punish someone for being jealous as it such an ugly trait to me and anathema to my way of thinking. My NM could never be happy for me. On the day of my graduation I remember her smiling through gritted teeth proud of her daughter as it probably reflected on her but then immediately afterwards she found every educational certificate she had of her own (she did not go to university) and she stuck them on every wall with blue tack. Shortly after that we all fell out and I have not seen her in over 8 years! There is no graduation photo of me in her dining room but there is one of my DS, now there's a surprise. It's because of these experiences I am struggling with the meaning of 'friendship' as I expect loyalty and a true, clean heart. Is that too much to ask for?????

Sal, please try to remember you are both very fragile at the moment. Neither of you can really "make" the other feel better - although the desire for that can push you into demanding it, as you did this morning. Apologise simply. Most importantly, forgive yourself.

You are both going through a process. It can feel hard to accept that his process is valid, as yours is, and even harder to realise your processes will diverge at times. Part of your own process - one of its foundations, in fact - is to recognise that you are the person with the power to make you feel better. Start in small ways, like you did last night!

Gentleness & care Good luck.

Hi Sorry am just lurking at the moment. Some really interesting posts which ring true for me especially wrt friendships and also self sabotaging tendencies.
I still havent fully seperated myself from my own voice that exists constantly within me.
Its a source of control either way wether I end up rebelling against that voice (as I seem to) or seeking its approval.
I think by reading the recent posts I definately realise that there is a great deal of rebellion in me. My biggest problem is unravelling it all and working out who the real person is underneath.
The voice has co-existed with my own for that long I often have trouble knowing which is which.
I suspect the one that belongs to 'her' likes to lord it over me and uses guilt making language like 'should' and 'shouldn't. It completely rides roughshod over the real needs that lie underneath.
In terms of friendships I guess I gave up 'looking' for my mother in other women, although the need is still there to find her elsewhere. What I'm lacking is the foundation or the base that makes it safe for others to have needs or emotions without me feeling engulfed by it, or shocked by it. If my mother had been able to put my needs first I think I would not be concerned by it half as much and would probably attract and be attracted to different friendhips than the ones I have been.
I think sometimes I behave with other women in a way that is manipulative (although I hadnt realised at the time) but I felt by meeting their needs I would get closer to them and then they would be able to meet mine in return.
This is after all how it was with my own mother I had to meet her needs all the time. I thought if I did this eventually I would get close enough to her.
My mother is also an incredibly jealous woman and couldn't bare for anyone (other than herself) to be centre of attention.
My time to have a realtionship with another woman who 'was' able to put my needs first has gone and that makes me feel eternally sad.
I still think i am trying to get those needs met through DH though, constantly. I feel sad that he really has married an adult child.