'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Therealsmithfield, you could be talking about me also when you speak of scapegoating, my friend said to me a long time ago, if you don't accept it they can't do it to you, the thing is I did not understand or have the ability to not accept scapegoating, as I had never learned it, it was a role put on me in early childhoood and as a woman in my thirties I had to learn to stop people doing that to me, you can do that too, the self esteem needs building up first, when you think you are worth it and think how dare they not treat me like that and you will one day just automatically think that way, you will no longer allow people to treat you like that and you will no longer take the scapegoating, but I do think that you need a break from people to grow and when you have grown you can test the waters so to speak and they will have to accept the new you, or you can cut them out again, it is all about boundaries, and you need space to practice on others and grow in order to let it all sink in and be strong enough to allow it to work!

exotictraveller - reading your posts is so very helpful to me. So many things resonate with me.

I can see that I have reacted to my H's behaviour by mirroring my parents - I'm really reacting to my childhood experiences. I was starting to see this through counselling, but you've really brought it home. We fought a lot about him not getting home in time for dinner and it is something that is important to me for DS particularly - but him being late has always annoyed me. However, I realised that actually I think I am just reflecting my mother's anger towards my father rather than reacting rationally to the real situation.

The triggering thing as well - H told me I was too judgemental when I found it very very hard to forgive some friends who had been sending sex text messages to each other (one was married). He thought my reaction was overdone. On one hand we have different views of infidelity, but on the other I can see I'm actually reacting to my experiences with my mother. When she left my father on two occassions, I dug out her deleted emails to try to find out where she had gone, and discovered some sexually explicit messages, which as a young teenager, and with them involving my mother (and being offensive towards my father often), I found horrific and disgusting. I think that has coloured my sex life particularly, as I have real trouble using words to discuss things - and it also affected my reaction to this. I was reacting with my feelings about my mother's behaviour more than about what they had actually done.

Mummie and exotic - I've suffered with PMT in the past too - just that my reactions to things are exaggerated, I go over the top about things and can't seem to stop

I'm feeling much stronger today. Starting to realise that although H has clearly been hurt by what I have done in the last years, he hasn't communicated any of that hurt or upset to me - often he hasn't communicated anything. He's damaged too and instead of supporting each other the way we should have probably made each other worse, and I think he's just imploded first, which has set me off Its easier when you can start to let go of the blame.

Despite the way he feels at the moment, and despite my anger at him for being the one who has said they don't want to try, I am beginning to be able to focus on me instead - as I will have to if I want to be a good mummy to my DS without his support as my husband.

I am sad that I don't feel able to share any of my breakthroughs with him, but I think that at the moment he will just see it as excuses and it won't mean anything to him. He has to want to understand me, and right now I don't think he can see past his own problems -which I get, but still hurts.

Chairmum, glad you are feeling stronger today x

What you say about you and your hubby both being damaged, is something I think is so true, we abused often attract to other abused, and hurt one another, I am sure that was partly why my marriage broke down, also ex had relationship with girl from bad background before me, and the one since me has bad background worse abuse than I had, so it runs true for him and his sisters also actually!

I am really hoping that the change in me and him having some counselling will help him be some sort of father to the children and want to stop trying to hurt me all the time, and take so much out on me! I can see a shift in things already, I am just not taking his stuff on anymore, like today he called me a name, instead of getting upset I told him to jog on... never done that before, does make me wonder what he thinks about it all, I think that is why he is engaging with me, I am no longer pathetic, I am changed and no doubt interesting to him now that I am no longer pathetic, I do wonder if he has broken his g/f down now and she is pathetic as I was and his previous g/f before me became after years of being with him, I think there is a bit of npd there with him actually, he is exhausting all the praise he needs continually, and I know the g/f after me was another one continually giving him praise also, she must be worn out of it by now, I was at that stage but I thought it was due to having children lol x

Mummiehunnie- Thanks, you have clarified soemthing for me which is very important in all of this. The point about boundaries.
I do think that this is perhaps why I let my dad back in to my life (sorry half musing here). He doesnt acyually 'do' anything anymore that particularly upsets me. Unlike my mother he doesnt appear to want to try and hurt or belittle me.
I dont depend on him anymore the way my siblings do for financial stability (nor will I again if I can help it). He doesnt offer me money either by way of manipulation. In fact, he is repsectful and accommodating. Yes, he does drink too much and that is sad and at times I feel this could again be his priority so I cant allow myself to 'expect' too much from him. I get cross when I rvert to little girl mode in his company. I need to excersise caution around him wrt my emotions.A defense mechanism I know. I see through meeting him now how much pain I must have been in as a child/young girl. Desperate for his attention. Wanting him to pick 'me' over the booze or even my demanding mother, and the scramble for his affection between me and my other 3 siblings. His violent outburst and verbal rages I no longer see. He has not had enough contact yet to revert to type.
So, for now, he has I guess accepted my boundaries in exchange for some contact and that is enough for me.
Wrt boundaries with SILand BIl it is difficult because they are DH's family but maybe this is a wake up call for me. I dont want to pretend to be close in order to please people such as DH and MIL. They are not healthy to be around, so for now I think I will have a restricted relationship and see how that goes for now.
Sorry for rambling on about this but at least I am beginning to clear things up in my own mind.

mummiehunnie- are you able to say what the thing was that happened. It might help? I understand though if you have already processed it and decided there is no point dwelling. In many instances you are right it is better to 'try' and think the best and move on. I feel a lot better from stopping myself from demonising everyone and their actions.

The OP really...made me feel like you were describing my life. And confrontations that I have had prevoiusly with my parents where I have tried to get them to understand...and what you said they will say is exactly true...

I'm not ready to post about my experiances yet...maybe I will one day, but I take great comfort in reading this thread.

that is what i would like therealsmithfield from people then to respect me as a human being!

It is not that I don't want to share, it is just such a long complicated situation, too much to explain the whole thing really, over view acromonious divorce from ex, caused a lot of problems in my life and the children's lives, he had some sort of breakdown, but decided to scapegoat me and punish me for his parents and his actions, and i just took it did not know how not to..then a knock on effect was other people thinking they knew things they don't actually know as a lot of ex's issues were his and he caused huge drama etc and he lives in fantasy land but seems very plausable etc, not helped by me being pathetic childlike at the time and own worst enemy etc... gosh so hard to condence... anyways someone told me they knew what had gone on and it annoyed me as they think they know and are judging etc on not really knowing if that makes any sense...

twinklesky that is what i did when i noticed this thread in January, you take care x

Twinklesky, I stalked this thread too! So glad I was brave enough to post my feelings. It was SUCH a relief! I could actually feel the steam errupting out of an imaginary blowhole at the top of my head -LOL. At least this forum is a safe place to say it how it is for you without risk of negative judgement and criticism. Go for it when you are ready twinklesky!

This quotation sums it up folks.

'Had we not loved ourselves at all, we could never have been obliged to love anything. So that self-love is the basis of all love.'
(Thomas Traherne)

Chairmum, men react differently to infidelity, just look at the differing reactions to the John Terry saga. I find that my DH doesn't get so wound up as me and so emotionally embroiled. But tbh, that's a good thing, as we would be both completely mental and knock ten bells out of eachother. I find that it is my anger (suppressed) that is so damaging to my relationship. Once it is out in the open, I am calmer. If it is festering, it is like a heat seeking misile on a trajectory following my DH and sooner or later it explodes leaving devastation in its wake. That is why I have to deal with myself first. Anger is a negative energy and if turned inwards results in depression. So, it has to be released safely. Once out of your system and the red mist has cleared, things don't seem so bad after all. How you release this pent up anger is individual but I know exercise is good for me as well as screaming into a pillow or in the car. Talking about it on here is another way. All those little bastard niggles that gnaw away under your skin seem to evaporate once they are communicated to like minded people who can empathise. Phew, I think I am off on one again.

calvados - my anger and frustration have been very damaging too. It has built and built over the years and I've expressed it very negatively towards my H as I find it hard to trust other people so haven't had another avenue to express it. I'm hoping I've learnt that lesson this time, for my own sake

Just a really quick one - it struck me, reading the latest posts, that unconditional love from parents teaches children that they don't have to be perfect and they are allowed to make mistakes and can still be loved and loveable. If you weren't shown much love and approval but felt disapproved of, you are always trying to be perfect and hoping that will make them approve of you, but you can never get everything right (nobody can) and eventually you realise that you can keep trying and trying but they will never really make you feel the way you want to feel. Maybe even if you did manage to be perfect they still wouldn't show love/approval/admiration etc! Because they don't really know how to express these things.

Lots of people are still trying to be perfect and because this is impossible they won't let themselves like themselves. They were never taught that they don't have to be perfect.

osahm- You are so right. I keep going full circle and head back to the same thing which is this compulsion in me to be perfect. In fact (we have talked a lot about anger especially towards partners), this is often the trigger for me.
If DH does something which I 'percieve' as disrupting or 'ruining' my attempts to carry out tasks perfectly I actually 'flip' out.
I totally over-react and I am aware (now) of a little voice in my head that says over and over 'get it right...get it right'. It is 'this' voice that is a huge source of stress and anxiety and makes me feel I am walking on a knife's edge each day.
Just the slightest ripple caused by DH stirs up my anger- And LOVE the analogy of a blowhole. This is true for me, I become a human blowhole.
Today I blew up because I had to take the cat to be neutered, booked her in and organised everything but forgot to 'tell' DH to take the cats food up off the floor after ten thirty. She had to be starved from 10.30pm. I shouted at DH over it .
This is an exact replication of what would occur on a daily basis to 'me' as a child. My mum would need someone to blame for her 'percieved' fuck-ups/imperfections. That person was often me. If I was more accepting of my own human like inability to get every little thing I do on a daily basis perfect, I wouldnt need to find my own scapegoat.

It is so important to seperate the behaviour in our own DCs from the child themselves. I 'do' try most of the time to do this. I dont think my parents ever did and so if I did something wrong it wasnt my behaviour that was wrong it was me. This was brought home to be me by their language. ''You' are selfish, horrible. evil, dirty' etc. It would have been more constructive for them to say 'your behaviour' was wrong, not acceptable etc.

It makes sense OSAHM, what you say. I know I will never win their approval, The job now is to try to re-wire that part of my brain so that feeling that it is OK to get things wrong moves to the front instead of the back of my brain.

Another way of saying the same thing is, like what you say with your own children TRS, they behave badly sometimes and we tell them off if they need to be told off, then we forgive them and forget it and show affection to them when they are being good and we still love them and think they're loveable don't we! This is how it should have been with you because you were and are loveable too. Believe it. Easy to say I know.

I really think that a lot of today's society's ills come from a striving for impossible perfection. Not just because of bad upbringings but because of the media. It is very unforgiving. We are encouraged to only accept the best with no flaws and told we can achieve everything (which realistically I don't think we can, but then we will feel like failures). People seem encouraged to ditch their partners for the smallest imperfection rather than being tolerant of anything. The media makes people who we are supposed to strive to be like look 'perfect' (most of them are digitally enhanced anyway so it's not even true!) and then people become dissatisfied with their looks. We don't have to 'have it all' and refuse to accept anything less to be happy though, I think. If you are reasonably happy and enjoying your life, it is much less stressful to be content with what you've got and let go of the pressure of striving for a perfect life, image, partner, house etc which you will probably never feel like you've fully achieved. The stress blinds you to enjoying what you have already and making the most of it while you can!

I think the pressure falls especially to women who are supposed to have a sparkling full time career whilst bringing up well adjusted socially confident and high achieving children alongside the handsome high flying husband (who by the way is home by six to cook dinner despite his high pressure job).
We do all this with perfectly manicured nails and hair and make-up in our designer suits.
When you write it all down it makes me want to laugh (in a good way) It is good to see the comedy in things.
The women in the media that give the impression that this is who they are have umpteen employees to help them succeed in the perception of being outwardly perfect.
Even if that 'was' me, my parents would still be who they are and wouldnt behave any differently. SO I might as well have a happy imperfect, 'normal' life.

I digress. Yes I agree I need to be kinder to myself maybe.

I have thought some more about BIL and SIL and I think perhaps I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I dont have the capacity to really know what they were thinking when they did what they did. All DH can do is explain 'why' it was upsetting to him and set it as a new boundary so it doesnt happen again.
WE will of course become more wary in terms of business as a result. It is up to them how they react to that thereafter. Life is too short for such pettiness and arguing.
Writing about this has helped though.

Hi, I'm just marking this so I can find it again, never realised what this thread was until reading another thread and then I couldn't find this one

Anyway I have bought and trying to finish Toxic parents, thanks to atillas recomendation,
only a few pages left but finding it hard as I'm not sure about the whole confrontation thing,
I think I need to write some sort of letter just for me not to be posted,

I haven't spoken to my dad since the day after my dd2 was born, so 3 years and 3 months on Saturday

I tell dh all the time I don't care anymore, but its more like I am numb to them, If I don't care I can't feel hurt when my mum practically puts the phone down if my dad comes into the room
or when she tells me if things were different she would love to help me out
or when she denies all knowledge of saying something that I spent 2 days crying over

and the more time that passes the angerier/resentful I get about my mothers lack of back bone, she talks the talk, you know how much I love you, miss you, sends me stupid little poems and prayers,

she can go away for a week with her sisters but she can't visit me for more than 1 hour if I'm lucky, so when she comes to visit I hardly speak to her, I have nothing to say to her because I don't see the point, because apparently the situation is hurting her more than is me

I didn't mean to write all that now as it probably dosen't make sense,

I think I'm so confused now as I always thought my issues were mainly with my father and I always said we were all to blame for letting him get away with his little tantrums for so long, but now I am realising that I have just as much issues with my mother and her anything for an easy life attitude,
and lets sweep it under the carpet, my father told my mum it had been brewing for the last year, because I was overstepping the mark too much, eg he didn't like my brothers dds name and I told him not to say that to my brother, he got off the phone
and said "nobody gives a damn about what I think"
and "Who does she think she is"
"taking that b**d's side "

Your either with him or against him, sorry I could go on for ever, going to sit later and have a good read of this thread

I'm sure I will be back as it is dd1s birthday on Monday and even though my mother has been told his name is not to be on any cards she does it so I will wait and see

plumbummum- Of course you are angry. It makes perfect sense to me. Your mother has/and still is enabling your father's behaviour. The painful part is realising how much this has hurt you through the years. Still is.
Whilst the focus was on your father it would have been harder for you to process those feelings wrt your mother.
In a way this 'is' progress because you are being able to process the feelings toward your mother now.

thanks for the response therealsmithfield wasn't expecting it just getting it down helps me,
I should probably do it more often and I forget things that were said and done, but dh remembers everything he has seen and heard, which helps because sometimes I think did I imagine that,
and also as you say I grew up thinking my dads temper/moods were normal, he wasn't violent and it was never directed at me,
I was the peacekeeper couldn't understand why my brother would annoy him etc,
I always knew if I stood up to him he would never speak to me again but deep down I never believed it because I was the trophy child,

I think its the unconditional love thing as you say its something your parents tell you but then their actions speak differently

Needs to go away and do the school runs but will read through later

osahm, I hear what you are saying about society!

I think in my case, I never thought I deserved perfection or nice things, I chose a partner who when I met him had an ordinary job, debts, was not the best looking, not the best personality etc, I was deemed by everyone to be far better looking, a real prise for him, slim then, blonde long hair, big boobs etc, i now realise I was a show piece for him and he adored showing me off, then after the children not sure if it was both of us, but the weight piled on and he was ashamed of me, looking back, I do think there is a bit of npd there with him and I was all about looks, kindness, softness, giving him loads of attention etc and things were not the same after two children! He threw himself into his career earned very good money, got rid of his debts, we did very well financially during our marriage, very well indeed, then he left and threw the family and assetts of us both away, spent a fortune on ow, building up debts to avoid maintenance, made me spend a fortune on legal fee's tens of thousands of pounds, on needles court cases, which his lies made into cases, it was the biggest waste of time and money in the world, all to try and make me look bad to people and avoid him seeing the children and giving us money.... it makes you all sick... we are both left with debts etc, and he made three years of mine and the children's lives a living hell, he was diagnosed with a mental health problem, he had no treatment, he did say he was having counselling and the counsellor told him to make me more relaxed so he could get what he wanted, what was odd, is that he claimed he wanted the children, no one stopped himseeing the children but himself, he is so deluded he thinks I am stopping him, he comes across as normal, but I know he is living in a fantasy land, I am sure he has npd!

OSAHM, the perfectionism, thing as far as I am concerned has only really affected me in my home, and garden,before a family it was all about me, clothes, hair etc, I do have a thing for clothes, I and the children have loads, although it is not an obsession I have seen various people who are obsessed throughout live, I am just someone who likes to keep up to date and I will buy the children and myself a few hundred pounds worth of clothes in two go's each each season, and get rid of the old etc... I had nice clothes as a young child, but from teeen's onwards, I had not much, maybe three or four outfits a year, and uniform, I had just one blouse, skirt and jumper, so I had massess of space in the walldrobe, it was wash/dry and iron quickly etc...

looking back, I think actually mother who was someone who took great pride in her apprearance, and none in mine at all, seemed to get jealous of me as I got older, and she seemed to really turn on me as a teen, she stole what little I had, I mean she would borrow my shoes and run up stairs if I was in and return them to my walldrobe, and I would check and find them all hot and sweaty, or she would copy something I had and I hated that, she was thirty when she had me, she was too old to be copying and borrying my stuff, I had very little, (she had four walldrobes of stuff herself) in my teens and twenties, I was so glad so leave home! She was telling me when I was above average height and size eight I was too fat, and she would feed me, force feed me, then scold me afterwards, and take photo's of my bum from behind, I saw one not long ago and I cried and cried, she was jealous when I think back my youth and her lost youth... I hate her again now... grrr....

I see my children and if they have stray hair on their clothes or an up turned colar etc, I will tell them or ask if I can sort it out, I never once remember her doing that for me, I remember the odd time a friend doing it and I was shocked that they would take that time for me, I was just so worthless, and felt so worthless... it makes me so sad!

Its not just the neglect or the criticism though. I had times when my mother was lovely to me - all focused on me and taking me out and buying me stuff. When I was her favourite.

Then I'd do something to annoy or upset her, and my brother or sister would get to take that place. My brother, being the baby and the only boy, got to occupy that place most often (and I just realised perhaps there was some guilt there about the fact that the first time she ran off, she only took my sister and I) and was horribly spoilt at times.

Then when we were out of favour, she was positively horrible - ignoring, criticising, picking holes in everything we did.

I've been reading "Why love matters" about babies and their brains, and that says that inconsistent parenting like that can produce particularly screwed up children as they can't even develop a consistent mechanism to deal with their parents actions - therefore you end up with people like me who overreact for attention in some circumstances, and completely shut down in others It rang such bells for me that I couldn't keep reading the book. I need to go back to it in a while I think.

Oh, and my copy of Toxic Parents arrived today. I intend to start digging in at the weekend.

Hi everyone

I am afraid I am a bit rubbish at this and just tend to pop in and out without reading too much - I feel I don't know what is going on so can't help.

Some very kind MNters clubbed together and sent me the biggest box of chocolates ever and some beautiful flowers and a vase. This seemingly small gesture has been amazing for my self worth. How strange that strangers can do that but people I know in real life haven't? In a similar vein to me loving the children I nannied for but not my nana.

People are strange things.

So true Fab, there's nowt so queer as folk!

Hi everyone, my lovely friend showed me this thread as she thought it might help me - and it does, the title even made me chuckle!

I've never before met others treated by their parents in the same way I have. Whilst it's comforting that I'm not alone I'm sorry you've been through it too.

I've been writing a blog about it as I'm trying to re-build my life, see www.missvelvetbutterfly.com