'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Calvados, I really have no idea how my sister would respond to a letter from me. I feel very strongly that she has been so judgmental of me, I feel hurt that she admitted she only skimmed through a letter I wrote ages ago talking about my parents's abuse for the first time and yet she seemed to have read in full the few paragraphs in the letter where I talked about her and our other sister. She totally focussed on the paragraphs about her and basically ignored everything I had written about what i had been through as a child. And then on the basis of what I had written about her, she decided to cut me out of her life for a while and turned herself into the victim and felt sorry for herself because I had told her a few home truths about herself which she had never been told before.

She was the 'golden child' in our family. She therefore has a huge sense of self importance and self righteousness, she thinks she is superior to me and looks down on me as a lesser being.

All of this probably explains why she has the arrogance now to feel she can once again cut me out of her life whenever she feels like it. I should be the one who cut her out, she is the one who has been judgmental without hearing my side of the story. She is 100% on my parents' side, understandable as they fawn over her and kiss her feet as if she is some kind of goddess.

I have no idea why she has cut me out again as prior to the current phase of no contact we were in contact on a fairly regular basis. I can only guess it might be because I have not been to visit our other sister since she had her first DC nearly 6 months ago. To my youngest sister this probably proves just how selfish and nasty I am, not only have i cut out our parents, I have not even visited our sister after she had her first child. I am firmly fixed in her mind as the bad guy, not just because of recent events, but going back way before that.

She cannot for the life of her see our 'true' family picture. To her, I am the baddie, my parents are the victims and she thinks she is doing the right thing by being loyal and sympathetic towards our parents.

I still get emails from my other sister, the one who i haven't seen since she had her baby. She just sends pics of her baby, and I am just one person in a group email, so she is not exactly writing to me herself. She did send me a message in the New Year, but it was just so she could talk about her baby and try and persuade me to visit so she could get the admiration and adulation she thinks she deserves from me. I never reply or respond to her.

I have to a large extent, but not completely, emotionally detached from them both. I don't feel I need them like I once did. But the fact that I still feel annoyed and angry because my youngest sister has cut me out of her life tells me there is still some attachment there which I need to work on.

Mummihunnie (hi it's wtsaf, have namechanged a lot recently). What are you fearful of wrt your brother if you distance yourself from him or cut ties with him? I can understand you feeling a bit scared to do this if you still have a 'need' to have a relationship with him, even if it is toxic and hurtful to you. I was in exactly the same situaion with my sisters for a long time. Every contact resulted in me feeling hurt and angry and upset in some way, it took me a long long time to unlock my attachment to them. If that is what you feel would be best for you wrt your relationship with your brother, you should spend some time examining the relationship and working out what the true dynamic of it is. I realised with my sisters that I had formed an attachment to them because i had no secure attachment to either parent and I was hoping, at a subconscious level, that my sisters would give me what my parents were not providing. This made me vulnerable as I felt I needed them, and even though they didn't give me what i needed and in fact exploited me and used me to give them what they themselves needed, I couldn't let go of the attachment. It was only when I realised that they would never give me what i needed that I gave up my attachment to them and made the decision to not contact them.

I don't know if my experience is of any use or help to you at all, we are all on a unique journey, even though there are many similarities along the way.

Rose, am sorry you have a horrible bug. Take it easy and get well soon. I am so glad that you are posting again, it is a relief for me as well,like you said.

I read what you wrote about how your grandmother treated you when you were ill as a child. I recognised myself in your grandmother. I used to be like that with DD. Cold and angry and detached when she was ill. DH was so much better than me. He had genuine sympathy for her. I know I was like that because that was the way my mother was with me. I don't have any memories of being ill as a child and my mother being angry and annoyed, perhaps the memories are still buried and locked away, too painful to experinece right now. But I know for sure my mother was like that with me as I do have many memories of when I was older when she was completely rejecting of me when I was ill. Like your grandmother, she would look after me in that she would feed me and give me my medicine etc. But she was more like a stranger looking after me than my own mother. I am so glad you wrote about your grandmother like that, although sorry you never felt truly loved and cared for when you were ill. I have memories of my mother bringing me food when i was in bed ill and felt a bit confused as surely that was being a 'proper' mother? But like your grandmother, she would do all that, cook and bring me meals etc and yet I never felt any warmth or love from her. I am the same with DH if he ever falls ill and has to stay in bed. I will take him drinks and meals, but I have no idea how to be caring and loving and sympathetic and warm when he is unwell. I was never shown such things myself. Another thing I need to learn, but how? From whom? It certainly does not come naturally, if I do try to be caring and concerned i feel so uncomfortable, as if I am obviously faking it and very badly acting like a nurse.

I have came to the sad conclusion that the only thing you can do with toxic people , whether friends/relatives is to cut them out and never look back. They are never going to change and accept responsibility for their actions or even recognise your feelings , so whats the point in keeping a relationship with them? its like blood from a stone.
And the more you try to get something like normal relationship the more hurt, confused,frustrated and angry you get.
walk away and dont look back.

Hi all,

I posted on one of these early threads so long ago, but like always, in my attempts to pretend that I had it all under control I didn't really go into much detail, didn't stay to try to resolve anything.

I've been posting so much about my relationship issues the last few days (and on and off for weeks/months) that I had been focussed on that, despite knowing that really, I had to start work on myself, my own problems.

So many things that other people have written have resonated for me - particularly feelings about the parent that didn't really seem like the abusive one at the time. I'm beginning to see that actually, I have a lot of issues with my father too.

I struggle because I have dealt with all this for so long by pushing it down that I have lost touch with my memories - I know they're there, and they have started re-emerging - I think following this thread will help because there seem to be so many similarities between these emotionally abusive, selfish parents. I've also just started counselling by email, and took the huge step of going to the GP for anti-depressants and to get referred for face-to-face counselling today.

I'm struggling now to take responsibility for changing my own behaviour, while not blaming myself for having developed it. It is hard because I can see the effect I have had, and am still having on the people around me, and it is hard not to retreat into a shell and accept that the things I have done are actually the same as what I am. They are not, there is a reason (or many reasons) that I am like I am, and I know that eventually I will be able to control those behaviours, hopefully by understanding them better, and the reasons behind them.

It is encouraging to se that people feel like they are able to move on from this. I have felt so trapped by my emotions for so long (And am only just realising this) that it helps to see that you can be free.

drloves8, I agree with you and thank you for posting the simple truth. I have in practise been cutting out the most toxic people in my life and felt it was definately the right and healthy thing for me to do. But I admit I sometimes wonder if there could have been another way, was this really the only option? I worry I may be acting too harshly and probably come across as very intolerant and unforgiving. And yet if I even think about any form of contact with the toxic people I have cut out, i have a physical reaction, my body recoils at the thought, and I know I have done the right thing.

Chairmummieow, hello and welcome back, I do remember you from a while back. I am glad you feel strong enough to begin tackling your issues. It is worth it and is the only way to live a real life.

Thanks for your post exotic. Reading your bit on friendships has made me see what I was in danger of doing, i.e cutting out everyone who crossed the line. I suppose it comes down to being 'big enough' to take a few knocks/digs from friends without crumbling but also learning to distinguish when it's not threatening. I am striving for balance too. Reading about your friend who burst your bubble about your holiday reminded me of how my DS and DM would react to me going on holiday. I am sure your friend was just a wee bit envious compared to my DS and DM but never-the-less, it hurts when someone can't be genuinely happy for you. It also annoys me because I am genuinely happy for people when they go on holiday as it means they can have a break from the treadmill of life and will be refreshed when they come back. Also, it is no big thing these days to go away. Not like before when it would necessitate a postcard to all and sundry to explain your whereabouts! My DS would react by saying,'how long are you going for? Oh, 2 weeks? that's a long holiday, I wish I could go away for 2 weeks.' Never once thinking that I was a busy mum then with little ones and desperate for a break whilst she was a single career girl who could go on holiday whenever and wherever! She would promptly go to exactly the same holiday destination later in the year to see if she had missed anything and would not even tell us she'd gone but would leave my DM to tell us the news. More like a grand announcement 'Your sister has gone to X' and she would make a fuss of it as though we were ignorant of the place.
Re looking after children when they are ill, my DM brought meals and took our temperature etc and acted the martyr. It was all done in silence mainly! Can't remember her jumping in to bed with me the way I used to with my kids. However, in fairness exotic, when you are feeling low yourself, it's hard to draw on your emotional resources when the tank is running low. That's how I look at it. If I haven't got, I can't give. It's a question of topping up your resources and it starts with loving the self. I don't know if this makes sense. So don't feel so bad that you couldn't show how to care for your child some times. The fact that you recognise that is huge. And as you say, we all need to learn from someone. Considering I am the classic scapegoat child of an NPD mum, I have a good sense of self worth. My problem is that every now and again it comes crashing down.

Also, I don't think I could write a letter to my DS. It would anger me and I would have to punch a few walls because it would not even sink in with her. It might make me feel better in the long term but in all honesty, she will back my DM to the hilt and continue to judge me as the baddie. She has a holier than thou view and can be dismissive. She would also flaunt that she had a wonderful relationship with our DM and that I was the one that was strange. Sorry, I'm off on one again but talking on this forum is very cathartic! Strangely, my relationship with my MIL which is good and healthy, annoys my DM and DS and they refuse to reciprocate Xmas cards?!

I remember finding it hard to mother my DS when he was ill, when he was younger. I used to get hurt because he often wanted his daddy and not me. Looking back I was being a bit narcissistic. I was thinking about my feelings instead of focusing on how he was feeling. I am sure he could sense my unease as a mother and felt more secure with DH.

This process has unlocked a whole new world of feelings for me. Suddenly I really can empathise with people and I am a much better mother to DS. Recently he has been so much more affectinate towards me and there is a nice bond between us now. It can't be coincidence that this has happened since I distanced myself from my toxic adoptive parents and began to work on my issues

Exotic - your comment about wanting a dog really resonates with me! I am going through that phase at the moment. Of thinking everyone is toxic and untrustworthy. I made a comment to dh recently about how I want to go and live on a remote island with just my family. I too have gone from trusting everybody and desperately seeking approval to not trusting anybody. Sometimes I just want to cut everybody out because relationships seem like such hard work. However I know that I will get through this phase and come out the other end better for it. People are complicated but not everyone is toxic.

Calvados your posts make a lot of sense. It is so true that if your own reserves are low it is hard to give to others. My dh was quite ill last year (not man flu but a proper gastric flu!). I did feel sorry for him but because I was doing everything for the children and in the house, I had very little left for him. Your comments about self love are very relevant to me right now.

I need to start looking after myself and respecting myself more. I need to be more proactive about making life more fun for myself. Exotic I like the idea of doing that within the context of my family. Holidays, studying, getting fitter, nice clothes etc

It's interesting about 'stages'. I feel strangely reassured when I read about other people's stages and they seem similar to mine. I didn't realise it was so similar for lots of people.

Exotic, I think it is really good that you have come to a balanced way of feeling about your friends and seem better able to cope with any negative blips that might happen in your friendships now. You've been working really hard at making sense of things for ages and progress is being made and that must feel satisfying? And it is encouraging for other people to read it and see that it can be done.

I was thinking about my relationship with my birthmother earlier and thinking (maybe dangerously) that I could probably cope with seeing her now, much more than before, because I don't feel that I need/expect anything from her now. I wouldn't be disappointed from wanting something and then not getting it, and could just appreciate the good bits of her and that day's interaction. (I'm feeling quite good about her right now because I had a really nice email from her.) Maybe one day you might feel like this about your sisters Exotic? Although it is probably hard to imagine right now.

Mostly I feel this way about my parents too now, but then a pang of bitterness will come to me occassionally when I think 'but surely I should be able to expect certain things from a parent and it is not fair that I can't'. And it's right, it isn't fair and it is ok to be angry and sad about it, but I don't want to feel like that all the time. I think we probably have to accept that however 'sorted' we become, we will still have the odd day here and there when we feel the anger and sadness, we can just become sorted enough not to feel it most of the time. I think I have mostly allowed myself to feel it and express it and process it enough now that when I have contact there is a lot less 'sting' in being reminded of the past by things about them.

Now I am getting what I can get out of them (in terms of positive and enjoyable interaction) and accepting what I can't, rather than having nothing by having no contact at all. I'm deciding to think about what I get from them as 'enough' and enjoying that bit, and getting as much as possible of what I don't get from them, from other people. This won't be right for everyone though, I know that, especially people with relatives who continue to behave abusively towards them. We all have varied circumstances.

I think I have similar expectations of my old relatives now to what I have for friends who I have fun and easy company with, rather than close friends, or what I think my children and DH should expect from me. Exotic, how you describe some of your friends reminds me of how I am with mine (apart from the closest ones). I like seeing them because I get enjoyment from different parts of it, and if there is the odd thing they do or say which I don't like, I let it go as them being imperfect like all of us, or having a bad day, or having issues which affect their judgement (just like most of us do). You are right, that if we cut people out whenever they make a mistake, we will have nobody because everybody is imperfect and gets things wrong sometimes. We want people to forgive us for our imperfections as well don't we!

If someone continually and frequently does things we don't like and it's not just little one off things, and it is enough to outweigh the enjoyment we get out of seeing them, then that is a different matter. I had this with a friend before Christmas. I think then, you have to talk to them about it if you can't let it go without it building up negativity inside you. I tried to talk about it and I wanted to get it resolved and I was happy to try to understand her reasons and my reasons and talk about it all and find ways to make it better in the future, but she preferred to cut me off. Maybe I came accross as too critical of her or maybe she wasn't willing to think about whether she could have done something wrong or been imperfect because she couldn't cope with thinking she was imperfect. If someone is not willing to listen to the fact that they have upset you and expects you to put up with any way they want to behave without saying anything, then probably not seeing them anymore is for the best. (I'm still thinking about it so I'm obviously not 'over' it yet!)

The thing about finding it hard to show sympathy when our DCs/DHs are ill seems to tie in with what I'm drivelling on about somehow. Our mothers (mine was like this too) did the practical things you are supposed to do (which gives you self doubt about 'what have you got to complain about then'), but didn't express the emotion that we wanted/needed for our emotional (rather than physical) wellbeing. Then, because we never had a role model of how to behave in this situation, it doesn't come naturally to do it for our own children. During a conversation with my mum, when I was saying to her that if she had shown more affection towards my brother as a child he might have coped better with his life (eek! Can't believe I actually said that to her! Although I did put it in 'mild' language), she said that she "..didn't know how, as nobody ever did that for me". So this carries on through the generations. If we want a bit of forgiveness for not being as good at it as we want to be, should we maybe forgive our parents a bit because they were rubbish at it for similar reasons?

I know the difference is that we are recognising our behaviour and trying to improve it, so I think that means we deserve more forgiveness and understanding, so long as we don't just give up and be like our parents, using their ways as an excuse, and we do, do the difficult job of learning how to show positive feeling.

I also feel, with my mum, there is a feeling of 'I didn't get this so why should you get it when I didn't, that wouldn't be fair'. I hate this, because I think parents should want the best for their children and try to put their own issues aside. I will admit that I have felt this way towards my children at times, but have fought against it very hard and am still learning how to express positive emotion properly. I feel I do ok, but I feel I should still improve.

The way it ties in with my previous drivel is that we talk about ourselves being imperfect because of our issues and we want to be forgiven and understood, but I think this means we should also forgive our friends for being imperfect so long as the bad points of contact with them don't outweigh the good.

It also struck me what Exotic said about not expecting too much from friends, not expecting them to fulfil the unmet needs you had from your parents. I definitely used to do this too and get much too close. These friendships are hard to sustain because you both develop such high expectations of each other (or maybe just one of you does of the other sometimes), and then small things they do which you dislike or small rejections really hurt. These things wouldn't hurt so much or just wouldn't arise with your 'shallower' friends. I had this thought when I had the horrible breakup with my close friend, that I have a much 'easier' and more relaxing relationship with my 'unclose' friends, and maybe this will make them more likely to last! I now think that before getting really close to someone and telling them too much of your personal stuff, you should think carefully about whether they are 'suitable' for you and just keep them as a 'general' friend until you are sure. I used to be so desperate to get the closeness that I threw myself headlong into it with not much caution.

I think I've just said what Exotic said about going from being too trusting and getting hurt, to being too intolerant and cutting people off too easily, to finding a moderate middle way. Except Exotic said it in a few concise words and I had verbal diarrohea!

I am glad to be posting again on here, although I think posting and reading other posts is stirring up a lot of emotion that was lying dormant til now. I am probably going to ramble on for ages now, please don't feel obliged to read or respond.

I am feeling a lot of anger and turmoil today. I feel angry at DH, my parents and sisters. I think for a while now I have had various thoughts and feelings about them all which I have tried to suppress or ignore, perhaps because I knew I had no safe outlet for my feelings, because I had stopped posting on here. Today I think the suppressed feelings have come to the surface and I feel quite overwhelmed.

In the last week I have felt used and manipulated by DH. I felt he has played on my sympathy and used guilt to get what he wants from me. And I am angry that after working so hard on myself and feeling I have finally started to look after myself better and put up boundaries to protect myself from harm, I have in fact been harmed by DH. The situation with him is so hard to know how to manage. I honestly think that I need a period of 'no contact' with him, so that I can have the space and time to recover and heal from the hurt he has caused me. No different really to the reasons I needed to go no contact with my parents and sisters; for me it was an essential part of my healing process and I wouldn't have made the progress I have made in recovering from their abuse if I had tried to heal whilst still maintaining contact with them, however limited.

But it is impossible to have the same space from DH without actually splitting up. Because I met him long before I started this process of healing, we had many years when I had low or even no self respect and self esteem and I failed to put up any boundaries within our relationship or dared ever to say no to him. Now that I am putting up boundaries and saying no, it is causing a lot of problems between us, which are draining, tiring and upsetting. If I had some space away from him, I think I could work things through in my head so that we could then get back together in a much healthier relationship. But it is impossible. I can't cut him out like I have my parents and sisters. I just don't know what to do. I don't feel our problems are bad enough that I want to split up permanently from him, but there has been enough damage done to our relationship over the years that I need some time away from him in order to heal and recover from it all.

I also realise I feel very, very hurt not just by my sister cutting me out, but by my whole family's complete lack of effort to try and reach out to me and mend our relationship. Apart from a couple of self pitying letters from my parents, none of them have made even the slightest effort to reach out to me, to encourage me to talk and tell them how I am feeling, to show me they do care about me and that they do want a relationship with me. I thought I had accepted that nobody in my family cared about me, but I don't think I have. Perhaps cutting ties with my sisters has brought it all up again. I was kind of surprised at how little emotion I have felt about cutting ties with them since the new year, I don't think I have felt at all upset about it which can't be healthy. I think now that deep down I have felt very upset about it all but I have just been scared of letting the feelings through as it would be too painful.

I can't believe how worthless I am to them all. Not worth making an effort for. They value me so little that all I am worth is one self pitying letter from each of my parents talking about themselves and what they were missing out on by me cutting contact (ie their grandchildren) and absolutely nothing from my sisters. And I just can't get over the arrogance of my sister in thinking she has the right to cut me out. It really makes my blood boil. No doubt she thinks I have cut my parents out and not gone to see our other sister and her new baby because I am such a nasty, selfish, ungrateful, uncaring and unforgiving person. In her mind there could not possibly be any reason other than that. It would never cross her mind that our parents might have hurt me so much and damaged our relationship so much that I had no choice but to walk away from them in order to stop myself getting hurt even more, possibly to the point where I may never be able to recover. Or that I had also been deeply hurt by our sister, hurt enough to not even feel like visiting her after she had her first baby. I feel so angry that she thinks she has the right to stand in judgment of me, without even having talked to me and heard my side of the story.

I don't know why the actions of my youngest sister should affect me so much like this. Perhaps this is the straw that broke the camel's back, because there is a long history of her treating me arrogantly and with contempt. She always seemed to think that she was more important than me, and she was always backed up by our parents in these instances, and scarcely disguised her contempt for me and the choices I made and the things I did. I really feel like putting her straight, telling her exactly how her beloved parents treated me and making her face up to the truth about them. Even if they treated her ok, what sort of parents single one child out for abuse? How can the siblings who were not abused think that that is ok and they are good parents? I know she needs to believe the illusion that our parents were good parents, but her belief in that false image is having a bit impact on me, as she is now rejecting me in favour of our parents and that is so wrong and unjust. I am finding it really hard to accept it, and yet I know I have to as I know I will never be able to make her see the truth.

But perhaps I should write her a letter; I know it will not change her views, but it might make me feel better just for having written it and feeling that at least I have had the chance to tell my side of the story. Perhaps that is the crux of it. Because my sisters are in contact with our parents, I am sure they are hearing my parents' one sided version of events and I have been completely denied the chance to put my side forward. And that is what is getting to me I think. I feel like I am being forced into silence by my sister cutting me out. She has closed the lines of communication between us and I feel frustrated by this. But I can still write her a letter. She may not even read it. But that doesn't stop me writing and sending it. I believe I am entitled to tell my sisters my side of the story. It won't make any difference to our relationship, but I will feel better for having told them the truth. I don't feel as strongly about writing to my parents. Because even though they are pretending not to know about their abuse, I know they do know why I have cut ties with them. They were the perpetrators, of course they know, they might be fooling my sisters into believing they are completely innocent and did nothing wrong or abusive, but deep down inside I know they do remember. So out of the 5 members of our family, it is only my 2 sisters who do not actually know the facts of what went on, because they weren't there when it was happening, and have never been told either by me nor obviously by our parents. And I think that is the thing I feel so frustrated about; that my sisters are clearly making jugments about me, but without knowing all the facts or hearing my side of the story. If after they have heard my side and they still side with my parents, then that is their choice, but at least I will feel as if I have had a chance to tell them my side of things which has been completely denied to me so far. I am not hoping for a relationship with them, I don't need that anymore, but i do think I am entitled to tell my side of the story.

It also struck me what Exotic said about not expecting too much from friends, not expecting them to fulfil the unmet needs you had from your parents. I definitely used to do this too and get much too close. These friendships are hard to sustain because you both develop such high expectations of each other (or maybe just one of you does of the other sometimes), and then small things they do which you dislike or small rejections really hurt. These things wouldn't hurt so much or just wouldn't arise with your 'shallower' friends. I had this thought when I had the horrible breakup with my close friend, that I have a much 'easier' and more relaxing relationship with my 'unclose' friends, and maybe this will make them more likely to last! I now think that before getting really close to someone and telling them too much of your personal stuff, you should think carefully about whether they are 'suitable' for you and just keep them as a 'general' friend until you are sure. I used to be so desperate to get the closeness that I threw myself headlong into it with not much caution.

osahm, that need for closeness from a friend is something that I had not thought about a year ago, but I really get what you are saying there, I have looked for that closeness in friends, and it is unhealthy really in the end, and friends are not there for forfill our lack of parenting, I think I also looked for that closeness in my ex husband also, and he in me, it is all not very good in the end, it makes an unhealthy union, and you find the only other people who want that closeness are people who have also not had a conventional upbringing!

I went to counselling today, I was in a lonely, sad state yesterday, the tears in counselling helped me today, talking about what had gone on, accepting the previous thought of good parent for the real person they are and acknowledging what happened was wrong, was painfull!

What also interested me is that the counsellor opened up thoughts I had never had, the continual moving, I had been told that it was father that wanted to move, and explained it away afterwards to his bi polar disorder, but counsellor asked me why no one involved social services in, due to loud rowing of parents, battering of us mainly me i got it first and the worst or all of it! brother was golden child! I explained how I would have red raised lumps on my legs, the mark of the doubled up belt with the white grooves where there had been no contact, and the buckle marks, they must have left bruises, and now I am left wondering why the hell did no one notice? I remember I had a lovely teacher when the wrost of that was going on, I lived in ireland for three years and stayed at a school for two of those years, considering I moved 18 times and went to 11 schools that was the longest junior school I anttended, and I had the same teacher for two years, she was so kind to me and I and she really got on, I never said anything to her, but maybe she did not want to interfer and that kindness she showed me was her way of helping me! I did not realise that everyone got plates thrown at them or mugs of tea got thrown on the ceiling every night because someone said soemthing to dad at work he did not like, or mum wound him up for some reason, I did not realise that everyone was battered because dad lost money on a horse, I thought it was normal for a very long time, I knew I was angry at him, and I refused to hug mum as the only hugs were on her terms, never when I needed on, so I was only touched when she needed a hug or when he battered me, it makes me so sad! I still feel sad that they both hated me, used me as tool to unleash their anger at various people and did not love me!

I have just had another memory that I had blocked out, I remember I was six and seven when I was with that teacher in Ireland, and my mum used to send me to school with a purse around my neck and a key to the back door in it, my brother had a child minder all the time we were living in Ireland, but there was never a child minder for me, I was the only child looking back in the situation at school, and I used I leave the purse by the blackboard, the teacher used to give it to me at the end of the day, one day we both forgot and I went home with no key I don't remember what I did till mum came home, but I remember her screaming at me for being stupid etc and my dad battering me for it when he got home!

Was that normal for the time? I am thirty six now?

Can't stop for long, just want to quickly say Mummiehunnie, those things are definitely not normal and you are just starting to realise that and it is a shock for you all over again. I wish you strength x You will feel better eventually but this is a difficult stage you need to go through.

Oh, so many things ringing bells here:

exotic - I know what you mean about being denied your chance to tell the story. We were all abused in turn - the favouritism or victimisation of one child at a time being one of the things my mother loved to do. Somehow though, first my sister, and then my brother have forgiven and now claim that she couldn't help it because of her bi-polar. Which is apparently now under control with medication (and I can never trust that). I remember at times all acknowledging the hurt and pain she caused, and how corrosive she is to people - I can't imagine she has changed - and I just want to scream at them and remind them of what they said. I want to remind them that they all agreed with me - the difference is I didn't change my mind.

Also about expecting too much from people - I had a very bad experience as a teenager where I basically scared everyone who cared for me away (because how many teenagers, going through normal teenage stuff can cope with a depressed and extremely needy friend) with my neediness. My parents and siblings were never there (at this point my sister was cutting herself and my brother was having sex (at 12!) so we were all pretty screwed up) and so I learnt to shut off. This basically made me shut off from everyone and not engage with anyone on that personal a level. Until my DH of course - and I've made the same mistake of relying too much on him for all this time, and I think that is one of our problems. (I keep coming back to how everything is affecting my relationship at the moment, I can't seem to help it!) I've now started letting people in a bit, and mumsnet helps me to vent (repeatedly) without burdening individuals in the same way. It makes it even harder to start looking at myself, when what I thought was unconditional support has gone

I'm now positive that I have been depressed for a long time - and it makes me a little more optimistic that I can do something about it. If I have to take medication forever, then fine (if it helps, can't tell after 2 days unfortunately) so long as I can be a better person for myself and those around me. And I've got a few months to improve before this baby comes along, although I feel sorry for DS at the moment who is being babysat way too much by cbeebies (and I just resorted to getting some DVDs from the library)

I try to tell myself that if things don't work out with DH, at least I can have a chance of better relationships (be it friends or whatever) in the future. More positive ones for everyone. But of course its not what I really want right now.

Rose and OSAHM, I think and hope that feeling more empathy with DD when she's sick will come in time, the more I work on myself. The more I work on myself and am able to feel empathy for myself as a child, I find the more empathy I have for those around me. The two seem to go hand in hand. I think for a time I stopped actively working on myself, partly because I am feeling better anyway, and partly because of the thread going quiet for a while. I also stopped seeing my therapist a while ago and need to find another one, but that is going to be a hard task and I think I am putting off doing it. I was so convinced when I first found her that my last therapist was going to be perfect and it was so horrible when it turned out she was not very good at all, I kept on going to her for much longer than I should have i can see now. She was better than nothing I suppose. But reading on here about how so many of your therapists have helped you move forward so much, I realise my therapist was not at all pro-active and not even very good at just listening as I rarely felt she understood me or even remembered my story from one week to the next.

I would like to be much better at being sympathetic when DD is ill, but I can see I have improved from a while back, so am happy with that for now. I am beginning to find a bit more balance with my parenting too I realise. Without being aware of it, I was so anxious about everything before, what they ate, how much tv they watched, how much time I spent with them etc etc. Then suddenly I just seemed to relax about it all and stopped stressing (not completely but a lot lot less) and I think perhaps I have gone too far now in the other direction in that I have become too relaxed about it all. But hopefully I will find a more moderate middle path at some point, but to be free of that crippling and disabling and draining anxiety is so nice. I realise that so much of my anxiety stemmed from the critical voice of my parents in my head telling me how useless I was as a parent and how my sisters were doing so much better than me. I have somehow managed to switch off that critical inner voice and am sure that is why I feel so much more relaxed about it all, perhaps a bit too relaxed though (I think I do need to be a bit stricter about how many sweets they eat).

I suppose when I challenged mother about that stuff, of me taking responsibility for me and my brother to get to and from school on the bus when we got back to the uk from when I was age eight/nine and caring for us both for two hours until she got in from work and babysitting us both every weekend, she told me it was normal in those days and I accepted it, and it is not really something anyone else spoke about as other friends mum's never seemed to work so I had no one to compare it to really!

OSAHM, when you say this is a difficult stage to go through, do you mean you guys have come past this bit? I appreciate your kind words, as you said you are busy etc x

I have been down here before when I had my children with my dad, it is the stuff with mother that is new to me! but it is like something I have always known at the same time, it is odd to explain it!

I know I will feel better eventually, I did when I challenged the father before, and I do already as although there is pain and upset, that horrible constant anxiety in my solar plexus I had all my life is now gone, it went when I said both parents abused me, in October last year and when I cut contact with them both, only chasing them for apologies and them to accept and attone what they did wrong to me!

Another thing that struck me just now, is that they paid for a child minder for my brother and they did not do that for me? he was a year and half younger but he had a childminder the whole time we were in Ireland!

I remember that I used to spead as much time as I could on the streets with friends, it was one of the happiest times of my life, each family had four or five children so there were loads of children to play with, I excaped the arguments of the parents, and batterings, I just had to endure night time batterings, and evening meal rows and mug flying, i was free and escaped, I don't remember having lunch or anything, you get long summer holidays over there three months and I remember the joy of the freedom of no school, playing with friends endlessly (as they were not encouraged to be in their houses either as so many children), they were happy times for me, with short spells of batterings and blamed for others problems when I was at home but I was at home so rarely that it was ok during that time! When we came back to England people did not play out much, we were isolated from school friends as parents made me take me and brother a long way away on bus to catholic school, also it meant that we left at same time as mother in morning and we were late home and less time alone in the house I suppose! so there was no one but one of my brothers freinds that lived anywhere near by, we used to meet him in a park half way between sometimes, I remember a man exposing himself to me once there, how nothing worse happened to us I will never know! I don't think mother even asked us what we were doing during the time before she came home from work, all she cared about is that I had cleared up after everyone's breakfast and that there was no mess lying about, she just had no interest in us when I look back, I don't think I had a mother from age six, I just had someone who cooked, washed us and clothes and cleaned our home and lived along side us, and I was to be my brothers childminder, it makes me so sad!

Mummhunnie that kind of physical abuse is never normal whatever time. Unfortunately, your dad probably had the same treatment meted out to him and he just perpetuated the cycle when unleashing anger and was not strong enough to break out of it. You have broken that cycle by the sounds of it and now you are dealing with the trauma. It will be very painful but I am sure there is light and joy at the end. I wish you lots of love and strength to continue. As Ordinary said, you will feel better after this difficult stage. There will be some terrible days too but it is part of the process as I am beginning to realise. It is never never right to beat a child with a belt. I felt tearful reading your account. Children need lots of hugs and kisses. You can never give enough. It does not mean you don't discipline them but they should know that a parent's love is greater than any punishment they might receive. You are speaking out now which is good. Keep talking and sharing and you will get stronger.

sorry for going on now, but things all changed when I was five and I wonder what that was all about? Father was put in mental hospital, mother took us to battered wives place and returned to him, and then we moved to Ireland after all of that!

I remember that was the time when the batterings started, he stopped battering mother and started on me, I think her running away was her saying no more, and he had to have someone to blame for his problems and take out physical frustrations on and that was me!

I think actually the reason it was me, was I was older and when he was threatening us all with knives when I was five, brother had his first asthma attack and was in hospital for ages, he was then deemed precious and special! and I was demonised!

I remember being five and in neighbours house, father was smashing up the house, you could hear it, and mother was screaming for me to go and help her, neighbour would not let me go, I felt responsible for mother, none of that was right!

She stopped him hurting her and let him hurt me instead! that was how she endured her marriage by scapegoating me the bitch! I really fing hate her more than ever now!

mummiehunnie - Ahh the feeling responsible thing.

At 16 I remember having to wrench the knife out of my mother's hand as she threatened to cut her wrists. My father was standing there crying I think, and my brother sitting in the other room sobbing, rocking back and forth (sister was at university). And so an already screwed up teenage girl had to take responsibility for stopping a grown woman killing or harming herself.

Then she went and locked herself in the bathroom and I went up and broke the door down (thankfully old doors with rubbish locks) to make sure she wasn't hurting herself.

By this point I just remember being so angry that I had to do this, and not wanting to deal with the fallout rather than being sad or afraid for my mother.

It seems to be a theme - having to take responsibility for things that you really shouldn't have to, and it steals our childhoods.

calvodos, I don't know a great deal of father's childhood, I know his father was a drunk, and his mother was always ill, he was favored by his mother (she lost many babies before him for ten years), and his younger sister was favored by the father, the older twins (ten years older than father were neither here nor there from what I remember)!

I know father hated priests and religion and alluded to something with a priest when he was a child but he did not go into much detail, I often wondered as an adult if he was sexually abused to be honnest he has such hatred for priests!

Father has special educational needs, I am dyslexic as are many people, but he is something off the scale, he can only read letters and numbers, he is very angry and frustrated at himself yet continually refuses to go and learn to read properly, you get him stuff for adults with needs liek that and he refuses to go! He is ill educated and has no idea and listened to other people to gain his information and it is often wrong and he won't have anyone else's information given to him questioned and looks a fool constantly! he beat up loads of people in the past and stabbed mothers brother before I was born! Father used to do dodgy tax fraud, and when I was 9-11 he used to sit me in the kitchen typing out illegal documents for hours on end, scream and shout at me call me stupid for not knowing how to spell stuff, he has thick irish accent and does not know how to say some words properly as he mishears them and he would scream at me for questioning him what he actually meant, mother and brother would be in living room relaxing watching TV, I don't know why I had to do all of that looking back, why she was doing nothing? I think maybe in case police caught up with it all that she would not be prosecuted and it was ok for me to be involved! He was caught in the end when I was twenty, but I had not had any dealings with it all for a long time at that point, I really hated him so much when I got older and stood up to him!

Chairmum, gosh it was not just me then! it beggers belief really, Kerry Katona is messed up due to her mother doing all that also! It does make you wonder if she had a proper upbringing if she would not have gone for that mark and had the life she now has!

After father left aged 15, he decided at ten on a sunday night that I had to go and visit him, he lived an hour away, I was expected to take two tubes to go and see him to make him better, as I did not go and was tired, he attempted suicide, he was delighted to tell me the monday after school from mental hospital that it was all my fault, mother did not say it was not, and that I was a bad person, I could not speak the next day at school, was in a righ tmess, friends did not know what to do with me, eventually in pe at end of day broke down to teacher, who took me to mum's work, mother was humiliated and went nuts at me smacked me across the face for telling teachers and the worst humiliation being brought to her WORK the most precious thing in her life by a teacher crying how dare I!, borother hated me alos, then it was all ok with him as after that all teachers were nice to us and we never had to do homework, catholic school little divorce at the time, never mind mental nut job fathers in mental instituations!

Blimey I remember when I was seventeen, he wanted a mortage and could not get one himself, I had just started work, he made me go and apply for a mortgage in his name, thankfully I was not able to get one for some reason think I was not working long enough, he got a mortgage himself somehow, and the house got repossed not long after, he would have messed up my credit rating, mother did not say don't do it she did not care! she encouraged me to do it for him! Gosh I really was nothing to them, completely worthless and just a tool there for their needs!

mummiehunnie - no I think it is common, and its not just the big things like the beatings or dealing with suicidal mothers. I remember when I was about 8 or 10, I would get home from school and have to cook dinner for the whole family (it would be prepared on the hob generally, although sometimes there were spuds to peel etc). so that we could all eat together when the parents got back from work. That's an 8 year old dealing with boiling pans and hot fat without an adult in the house. My older sister 'couldn't' do it as she always burnt stuff and things. I remember having a warped sort of pride about being the one to do it. How wrong

charimum, it really is not right, we had cereal until mother came in, then when I got to secondary school, she left out frozen food, that had defrosted by then for me to heat in the oven! Well the sense of pride chairmum, is something I had too, I think if you can do something that it cancells out the negative stuff, that has gone on all your life!

I am glad so many have moved on from it all, I know I will too, I am just very sad right now!

I don't want to call them mum and dad anymore, I want to call them by their first names now, they never were parents to me, just adults I lived along side who used and abused me!

I would love to tell Mothers family about it all, they were not around much, I have told one uncle some of it a few months ago, he was sympathetic, and I think he felt a bit bad, I said he was not to know we had been isolated from that side of the family due to father stabbing mothers other brother! They would not do much but I would like them to know, I don't know why? I know that fathers family all hate me as much as he does, and they think the sun shines out of his and mothers back side and I am to blame for everything, they do not know that he and she would scream at me for weeks before we saw them and weeks afterwards, and I would be on edge when around them and parents would be relaxed and lovely to their face, and I was all confused and upset, these were bad people they do not like and think are thieves etc????? and they are being nice to them???

Mothers brother said mother and father were rowing from the day they got together, ten years before I was born, they had trouble conceiving and I was the unlucky one that got fertilised first, no other soul from heaven wanted that particular gig!!! What was worse is they addoped before me, and that child's mother changed her mind, that poor woman if she had found out when her daughter was older, what type of people she had her child adoped into, she was only fifteen the mum, she made a good choice, I would love to tell her that! and her child! Sadly I was not adoped, I look the image of father and seen birth certs, that was long held dream that my real parents would come and get me one day throughout childhood, not sure if anyone else had it!?

Mummy and Miaow, I'm not surprised how angry you are, and I just want to say how understandable it is that you are angry and you SHOULD be angry. The stuff you've described is awful! I could NOT forgive it and I don't think you should feel you have to. I feel it is worse than what happened to me and I've struggled/still sometimes to feel ok with the people who did that!