'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Calvados, you seem like you think you are being weak for cutting off contact (?), but I feel that is the strong thing to do and that I have been weak at times when I felt like cutting off but was too scared to because I was scared of people's reactions. And also, like I said before, I think that for some people, cutting off is the right thing to do for you and your children, if they are people who would, or have, put your children at risk, eg by leaving them alone in a park I'm sure that probably isn't even legal!

With the letter writing thing, I was very scared after sending my letters and felt physically ill with panic about how they would react. But for me it was worth it. I think it all depends on what your reasons for sending them are. If your reason is that you want them to see things from your side and feel sorry for what they have done and say sorry, then you are likely to get hurt because they are unlikely to react like this.

My reasons felt different though. I felt that I hadn't been allowed to talk about certain things because I was expected to preserve the respectable family image. I wanted to break that 'gagging order' and say "No, my feelings are more important than the family image". I wanted to not just say this to them, but to myself - to give myself more value and self esteem.

I felt that keeping things secret perpetuated a feeling of shame, that I should feel ashamed, but I decided I wasn't going to be ashamed any more because it was not me that did wrong things. By talking (writing) about it 'out loud', it felt like I was shifting the blame to where it should be, and off myself, taking a weight off myself.

Also, although it sounds 'ugly', I wanted the feeling of revenge from how difficult I knew they would find it to read, and from me saying what I thought of them for the bad bits and that my relationships with them had been irreparably damaged. This helped with the anger about the feeling of people 'getting away with' things with no consequences for them.

I told them I didn't care what their reactions would be, except that I requested of them to let me know that they had received and read the letters. I said that the important thing for me was to just say it all and to know that I had valued my own feelings (and myself) enough to say it all despite always being encouraged to repress everything for the sake of 'respectability'.

As requested, my dad phoned the day my parents got their letter and let me know they had received it and read it. He didn't say much else of consequence except that he hadn't known about the things I wrote about, but "would guess you would think I should have known" (ie noticed and done something about it rather than being in denial). That has a hint of apology about it which I appreciate.

My mum didn't mention the letter at all for 3 months then phoned me with a load of excuses for part of her behaviour that I had written about. She did say "Sorry" but she also came up with lots of excuses and trying to put some of the blame on me and my dad. She talked about herself being upset by my letter.

My brother phoned as soon as he received his and acknowledged everything he had done and apologised strongly, saying he would understand if I wanted nothing to do with him for what he had done. He has been working hard at making amends for the bad things he has done. I have a lot of respect for him. I think I've been very lucky in this instance because I think I had the response from him that lots of people on here would wish for, from their relatives.

My birthmother wrote back with her responses to things I had said and we discussed it all back and forth via emails and it felt like a healthy discussion. She has apologised for some things and other things have been misunderstandings between us which I can understand why we misunderstood each other. I respect her being able to talk about things, unlike my adoptive parents. Although I can only cope with an email only relationship with her, things feel ok.

My grandfather is dead and I never talked/wrote to him about what he did (sexual abuse). It doesn't bother me that I never confronted him. I have dismissed him in my mind as worth nothing. How can someone who would do that to a child be worth anything? I am probably glad he is dead because if he was alive I might be feeling that he was carrying on having a happy life with no consequences for his actions, and this would make me feel angry. When he died though I felt that his situation was sad, that he died on his own with nobody there, and my mum (his daughter) wasn't there because of distance (emotional as well as physical) in their relationship because of the abusive way he had treated her also. I actually felt sad for him that if he hadn't done those things, he wouldn't have had to die on his own. But I also felt relieved that he was dead.

I'm not sure if my situation is different from others on here in that at some point I stopped wanting to mend the relationships, so didn't have that as my goal in letter writing etc, and the people who I felt had rejected me in different ways - I rejected them back. I realised they weren't going to change and I wasn't going to have the relationship with them that I had always wanted (although my brother is changing, which I think must be a rare example and he has been very strong). I decided to find what I needed from people elsewhere and just accept the 'limited' relationship that I have with my 'official' family. I don't feel they are continuing to behave abusively towards me like some people's relatives so I don't feel a need to cut them off, but because I sometimes find contact difficult emotionally, I have limited it.

I just wanted to say/do something to stand up for myself, which I had always been too scared to do, and I felt I would continue to be scared generally in my everyday life until I found the courage to write the letters. The fear made me disrespect myself (although I now think that I shouldn't have as I feel my fear was understandable) and feel that I was undervaluing myself and would never feel self esteem. If I could value my feelings so much that I made myself fight the fear and send the letters, then that really proved to myself that I thought I was important enough to express my feelings. I don't need their approval as I have my own. It feels a MASSIVE relief that I have said it all in mine (and their) lifetime.

I wouldn't say to anyone that I think they should do what I did, because everyone has different situations and different thoughts and reasons why they might write letters. For some people it might result in a load of additional pain. I've just described how it did help me in case it is of any use to anyone to help them with their thoughts.

Ordinary, you are amazing (an oxymoron?!) I have to keep re-reading your last bit because I feel I am learning from you. Your brother is wonderful to work it out with you and acknowledge his part. I am going to reflect on your words now......

Hello OSAHN (I was on this thread a while ago, have namechanged). Have just read your last post and wanted to say thankyou for giving us your reasons for writing your letters and what you wrote in them. Reading what you have said makes me think it might be a good idea for me to do something similar. Because I wrote some letters to my parents just after I cut contact with them 3.5 years ago, but the letter were written when I was feeling only anger and rage towards them and were really a bit of a rant, without me talking properly about what they did and how it made me feel and how it damaged our relationship, which possibly could have been repaired if they had taken steps to rebuild my trust etc at the time, but now I feel it's just too late.

I have sometimes felt like I would like to write letters such as the ones you wrote but have always thought there was no point as I know I will never get the response I ideally would like from my parents. But to write them purely so I can say what I have always wanted and needed to say to them, which like you, I have never been given the opportunity to because my parents were never willing to listen to me, seems like a good enough reason to write the letters. I feel a bit scared though as I think writing these letters will bring up a lot of pain and difficult emotions, even though I have written about on here, and processed a lot of painful feelings already. But I am keen to access and free myself from every last scrap of locked away emotion as I know that keeping them locked up inside only leads to depression and illness.

Haven't been on the thread for a while, but it's good to see that it's still going strong.

could I ask people's opinions as to whether this is abusive/toxic behaviour on the part of my parents.

It cropped up because I was telling my ds about how at primary school the teacher terrorised the whole class by shouting, screaming,thumping and slapping most of us. People used to try to get out of class by saying they felt sick, need the toilet, or feeling faint.

It manifested in me by not being able to sleep, or waking up and shaking uncontrollably. My parents did nothing about this despite my severe distress prob because they were in awe of authority and quite young and naive themselves.

Subsequent to this I won a scholarship to a local fee paying school and was the only child from my class of forty to attend. The alternative was a state grammar school which was perfectly adequate and where most of my mates went.

Despite my protests I was sent as 'it was an honour'. Since then the relationship with my parents has been difficult - I suspect my mother was/is jealous of me and both are highly critical.

Despite being years ago I still think about it and when I was telling ds2 about it (the teacher adminstering constant physical punishment for not doing work to a satisfactory standard) I actually felt quite sorry for me as a ten year old girl.

Oh and started periods at age 11 and on first day my mum sent me to a netball tournament about 3 miles away from the school - I walked!!

Sorry for hijack but would welcome opinions

bump

Hi sincity, from what you say it seems that your old school teacher definitely handed out physical abuse and your parents switched off to your suffering because they might have thought the privilege of going to such a good school outweighed your unhappiness. Maybe a good place to start is contacting the school about this teacher and letting them know that his went on and that it was unacceptable to hit small children. That in itself will ease a lot of pain and may kick start dealing with your parents.

You say you suspect your mother may be jealous of you, can you elaborate how. My mother is jealous of me, but it has taken me years to accept that is the ugly side of her nature as to me, a mother being jealous of her own flesh and blood is anathema. Now that I have children (grown up) of my own, it makes it even uglier as I don't have that jealousy in me and therefore am angry that she does. It's almost as if Nature has let her down in a perverted way. Her jealousy manifested itself in all sorts of ways but especially to do with any relationships I have and have had including my DH and DCs. She would be very resentful and say nasty things or as I have talked about before on this thread, acted neglectfully towards my DCs knowing that I would not approve. She also rang the night before my first baby's Christening and said she wasn't coming if I didn't change the Godparents! No help with the catering or arrangements like normal mums but silence and sulking and then spouting out her ultimatums. That is just one of many! Can you give some examples of your mum's jealousy. I find this topic fascinating. Maybe cracking why they are jealous will go some way to helping ourselves.

thanks calvados am at work so will give a longer reply later.

I might try contacting old school pupils or the school that's an interesting idea.

Re my mum basically she was bought up by her father (and his sisters) after her own mum died when she was 13. As I understand it the message her and her sister were given was that her df preferred boys and was disappointed that he didn't have any of his own.

But as for her being jealous - this sounds weird but I got negative vibes from her quite young - I remember feeling this vibe from quite a young age. She has never been complimentary about my looks, my body, my achievements and always highly critical of most things I have done and can't ever remember her telling me she loved me. This might be a generational thing of course.

She is alot closer to my db but even he says she can be critical.

As I have got older I have realised that I am ok and possibly even quite attractive and have basically developed a sense of worth by myself.

My paternal grandmother was the opposite and put me on a pedestal - no love lost between her and my mother and can remember my mother criticising her.

I have got two boys but would do anything I could to boost their self esteem, tell them I love them and also praise their appearance (that's not meant to sound shallow but I think it's also important).

My father has also described me as 'up myself' which is not true - it is true that I have moved away from my home town (first one to go to university) and live in London - it seems on the one hand they wanted me to have that good education but on the other wanted a compliant, passive woman who wouldn't stray too far from home or path traipsed by previous relatives.

I think this is a dilemma faced by many lower middle class/working class people who try to move away - they don't fit in with family and they also have difficulty fitting in with some of the people they work with/mix with in their 'other life'.

OSAHM, hello again. I have been thinking a lot about a particular bit from your recent post. This bit here "..the people who I felt had rejected me in different ways - I rejected them back.....". How did you reject the people who had rejected you? Did you write something about this in your letters?

I feel right now that I have been rejected by one of my siblings since I cut ties with my parents. And it doesn't feel right that I should be rejected by her when I haven't done anything wrong. I think between me and my sister, if anybody is going to do any rejecting, it should have been me, rejecting her, not the other way round. Because within the context of our family situation, starting from when I first cut ties with my parents, I feel my sister has treated me very badly and unfairly which is why I think I would be entitled to reject her. Although she hasn't told me outright, I am sure I know her reasons for rejecting me, which are that she sees me as 100% in the wrong and my parents 100% in the right. Her rejection of me is probably due to her loyalty towards our parents who see themselves as the victims. In actual fact they are the abusers/perpetrators and I am (or was) the victim. My sister cannot see this and has cast me as the 'abuser' of my parents and she has therefore rejected me. I feel angry about this. I know I can't do anything to change my sister's perception of the facts, but I am angry at being unfairly rejected by her. I am not sure though what to do, how to deal with my feelings.

Her rejection is in the form of no contact. ie I contacted her a while back and she didn't reply. So I now feel rejected by her and it makes me feel angry as it is so unfair. I imagine it is very easy for her to reject and ignore me as she has found herself some 'replacement' sisters (her sisters in law).

My other sister contacts me occasionally but I never reply/respond to her. So I suppose I am rejecting her. But again, I am sure my rejection doesn't hurt her as she still has our other sister.

A thought has just occurred to me. Perhaps my sister's rejection of me now has triggered memories of rejection by my mother from the past. I don't really have any specific memories of rejection by my mother (well, perhaps there is one that I can remember quite clearly) but I know I must have had a lot of feelings of rejection as a very young child, as my mother has always rejected me all my life, in favour of my siblings. So the pattern is being repeated by my sister. She is rejecting me in favour of her sisters in law.

And I think the fear of feeling rejected again is what has stopped me from making friends easily in my life now. I realised a while ago that the reason I was not very pro-active in making and developing my friendships is that I was very scared of being rejected. It is good to know where that feeling stems from.

sincity, your last comment is so true and expresses the disconnectedness one can experience as a result of moving into a different and better social circle. It can cause a lot of resentment. Conversely, when one marries beneath one's social class (my mother for example) resentment sets in which in turn infects the whole family. Maybe your mum saw you having the life she never had, hence on the one hand she was pleased for your academic success (still within her control while you were at home) but equally resented the new life and opportunities it would bring i.e leaving home, better career etc,(out of her control. Does it always boil down to control? I think my own mother saw my having relationships as taking me out of her control. Are control and jealousy always intertwined? Call me naive, but I could never think a mum could be jealous of her children, it freaks me out and hurts when it just happens to be your own mum.

Being told you are 'up yourself' by your own father is proof enough that they think you consider yourself above them. Did you maintain links with them when you were at university? Going to university, though now more accessible can signify another world to parents who have never been. One would think they should just be proud and rejoice but then again, it will also drag up their own inadequacies and maybe lack of academic achievements. While you were away, they would have had plenty of time to think about it and could possibly have resented it in the end as you are then your own person with your own mind and perspective completely separate to them and how you've been raised. My eldest DS1 is about to graduate and I just love and admire how he is thinking for himself and really making informed decisions. The breaking away from his parents is liberating for him and necessary and ofcourse does not mean that he does not love us. I miss him but know that this is a necessary journey. It reminds me of how I was when graduating and how I ralised that everything you do from then on is from an informed point of view based on your learning and contact with the wonderful people one meets at uni. My own mother attending my graduation seemed happy enough albeit a bit quiet. She put on a good show for all. The problems started as soon as it was all over. She dug out all her certificates and sellotaped them to every wall in the hall way as if to say, 'look! I'm just as clever as you.' No one said anything but I knew, it was probably killing her. She too wanted for me to do well academically but also resented it as it meant I may do better than her. Although, from an upper middle class family, my mum married beneath her and did not have the life she believed she should have had. She spent the rest of her life being bitter and jealous. I do not recall her ever having one single nice thing to say about anyone's husband. She would criticise them and even tell her female friends and acquaintances that their husbands were inadequate and they should leave them! My DF could not work her out and would be dismayed at the things she said. My husband was never good enough and was jealous if he did nice things for me and took me on holiday or did the house up (things my father did not do)and now she has chased my DS's husband off (with DS blessing).

sincity, I know you are at work, sorry for long reply!!

Feeling so low at the moment and I don't know where to begin

I have had a chest infection, which I am on a second course of antibiotics for and I feel tired and drained. I had just started to go to the gym and lose weight (which is tied up in how I feel about myself) when this set me back and now I have put back on all that weight and just feel old, fat and ugly.....and worthless I suppose.

I just have no faith in people at the moment. I feel like the only people I like are my beautiful, innocent children. I feel like everyone is hypocritical and lets me down in some way or another. Even my DH makes me angry at the moment.

And when I feel like this I want a mother to give me a hug and tell me it will be okay. I know a lot of these negative feelings are tied into my childhood and that not everyone is hypocritical or a let down. I don't look after myself because I am not worth it. I don't get enough sleep or rest enough and even though I am trying to reach out to people as I feel so low, they just seem too busy or make token gestures. I thought I was building up a nice little circle of friends and support network but it has gone dead. I text people and they don't get back. Then I see lovely pictures of them having fun together on facebook. I looked after a neighbour's 2 kids all day a few weeks back despite having a toddler and a baby myself. Now I don't mind this as it helped her out but I have not heard a peep from her since. I suggested that my son could go and play at hers for an hour one afternoon. I feel used and rejected and the only conclusion I can come to is that I am unlikeable in some way.

I have gone back to not being able to sleep as I worry. I worry about the future and having no contact with my adoptive parents. They don't love me (not in a usual healthy way anyway) so I know I am better off without them but it still hurts. I worry my DH and I are not getting along as well and it is my fault. I am so bloody miserable and gloomy at the moment. I make no effort to look nice and we show very little affection towards each other at the moment. I just feel like I am an intruder playing at cosy families and it will all unravel. I sometimes feel like I am on the brink of losing it.

This sudden down patch baffles me a bit because I was doing so well and had started to feel happy and more confidant away from my adoptive father's bullying and my grandmother's draining ways.

Rose, hi, (it's opo). Don't have much time now, but just wanted to say that although you are now feeling low after a good period, which is obviously not nice, it is actually a good thing. It means there is something shifting in your subconscious, a new issue to process, or an older issue to revisit but with more knowledge and insight than before.

Take some time to really identify your current feelings and think about where from your childhood they might originally stem from.

Rose, I know you feel awful at the moment. Please don't lose heart, it often gets worse before it gets better. I remember the year before last, I think I had around 4 or even 5 courses of antibiotics for various reasons and also a couple of courses of steriods because my eczema was so bad. Last year however I managed to get through the whole year without going to the docs and I am hoping this year is going to be at least as good healthwise if not better.

I personally believe my health issues are inextricably linked to my emotional state. I am sure that if I went back to my posts on this thread during 2008, my emotional state would have been in crisis. In my roundabout way I suppose I am trying to say that I know how you feel and that it does get better.

I know exactly how you feel about wishing you had a lovely caring mother at times when you feel very hurt and let down by friends and do not feel very close or connected to your DH. I definately know that feeling; I felt physical pain at wanting a mother I knew I would never have. And at times I have also felt that the only genuine love in my life is that between me and the DC's. With everyone else, including DH, it's conditional and feels very unreliable and insecure. I knew that only a mother could give me the rock solid, reliable, unconditional love that I needed. And that must be why it hurts so much to have to go without that, because it is a human need, as opposed to a 'want' or 'desire' just like food and water and without it, it is very hard to survive. Somehow I got through that part of my journey and I am sure you will too Rose, you will find your own unique way through.

I know the feeling of being let down or hurt by friends. But then I realised that I was actually expecting too much from my friends. I was expecting from them what can only be given by a mother. Friends can and will occasionally let you down and sometimes hurt you; I have realised only very recently that this does not make them bad friends, just normal and human. I suppose I am learning to see people in shades of grey as opposed to black and white. That is progress for me.

I have been through very similar things to what you have described with friends ie being left out of things and feeling unappreciated. In my case I realised that a lot of my feelings could be traced back to feeling left out by my sisters and mother and also feeling unappreciated by them. I knew my friends had not acted deliberately in leaving me out of something, I was not really a firm part of the group anyway so they were bound to be doing things without me sometimes.

All I'm trying to say that if you feel disproportionately upset by the actions of your friends today, it might be worth examining your feelings and seeing if they originate from events during your childhood.

I can also relate to the feeling of 'playing' at happy families and being on the brink of losing it. Everything feels so fragile and not real at times. I don't know where this feeling stems from. Perhaps from the fact that my dad used to swing from being really nasty to really nice. I must have internalised the feeling that even when things are good, they can suddenly turn bad in the blink of an eye.

Thanks so much exotictraveller (like the name)

I haven't posted here for a while either so maybe I need to keep writing my thoughts down so that I can process them

The health thing gets me down. Since I had the kids I haven't kept as well and have put on weight. I used to be super fit (albeit because my adoptve father bullied me into sport). I just want to feel slim and energetic again. I have let go of a lot of my body hang ups. I don't want a perfect figure or to be the next olympic champion (those things were just to please him) but I suppose I want it for me now. Whilst I feel quite down at the moment, I am on the brink of quite an exciting stage of my life if I could just be more proactive and stop doubting myself. I am in a financial position to give up my job (again a career choice indirectly driven by my adoptive parents) and once my youngest is a bit older, I could even re-train or study again. I want to enjoy my life now. I am not old but old enough to stop and take stock of my life and take some action.

I am sure my health is affected by my emotional state at the moment. You are so right about friends. I know deep down they don't dislike me. I do expect too much. I just have this sense that I was never quite connected to anything in my childhood, just in some kind of emotional limbo. I never had best friends, have never been bridesmaid/godmother. My DH was my best friend at university and I married him! I was bullied at school and at university I acted crazy and extrovertly purely to grab attention as it was my first time away from home and the gruesome twosome (my joke name for them!).

Family things have triggered me as well. My grandfather is sending me letters which prove he tried to get access to me and my adoptive parents blocked him. Also have a family wedding in August which they will be at. I have started to build a bond with other family members who will be there and so I want to go. I have missed so many events in the past. But how can I face them? We are pretty much no contact currently.

I hope your right that this just means I am processing stuff. I wept to my DH earlier that whilst I adore my kids and wouldn't do without them I wish I could have had more 'me time'. I spent the first eighteen years of my life in turmoil. Then escaped to university which were fun times but as soon as I left I settled down and started a family. I told my DH that he had a lovely childhood and fun teenage years in a loving, functional family unit. I missed that. Yes having kids can be fun but well I am rambling but I just wish I could use my new found freedom from my family and explore the world a bit. I feel a bit tied at the moment.

All my life I have made decisions to try and win my adoptive parents love. Now I know I won't get it regardless. God how I wish I had realised that earlier

Anyway I don't want the world. Just to feel healthy and slim and to have a little part time job that I enjoy and fulfils me but doesn't mean I have to sacrifice my children and their well being. Possible but why does it seem so bloody hard when it comes to do anything for myself?

Sorry for the ramble about me.

Re the letters. I only got the response I expected to my letter but it still feels therapeutic that I sent it. I would go for it

Also wondered what you think about repressed memories? I am sure I have a lot, particularly about my adoptive father being a bit creepy and dare I say it pervy. I am not suggesting he actually touched me but something doesn't feel right, some vague memories I have. I might try to explain them but not just now as I am shattered. I am so glad to be back on this thread. It is interesting because I read somewhere recently that someone felt therapy had made them worse. However I have felt myself getting more and more stressed since I stopped posting. I think until you are in 'that place' of recovery you have to keep processing,talking and self analysing. It ultimately makes for a healthier mind and soul. That is why our parents are so diseased because of denial and a refusal to talk about their issues. I think people think it makes it worse because when you start therapy you can feel worse intially. You are feeling things never acknowledged before. It is worth doing though

The jealousy is classic narcissistic behaviour sincity and calvados. I will talk about it tomorrow as my grandmother who raised me was so twisted with jealousy. I can understand how a daughter's blossoming youth and beauty could make you feel sad/nostalgic about your own youth or maybe even sad about what you did not achieve in your life. But no, not to put your daughter down so you feel better. That is abuse, end of. Ultimately a mother should want better for her daughter, not compete with her.

Again I think a healthy, loving mother would recognise her feelings and deal with them. I think self analysis and recognition of negative emotions is essential for good relationships.

Roseability, I was in the same place as you last week. When I'm down, I am in a deep, deep abyss and am hanging by a thread. I snapped at my DH whom I love so dearly yet I could not connect with him and wanted to punish him. I had so much hatred towards everyone and I mean everyone. It just came from nowhere like a red mist. But obviously it is coming from somewhere and will keep creeping up on me unless I face my daemons. I felt so worthless, angry at myself, other people, frightened of the future, regretful of the past. But I think it is passing and this thread has something to do with it as it is a way of releasing the built up pressure in a safe environment. No one is judging us, we can be ourselves no matter how shitty we feel.

Going to the gym and keeping slim and fit and wearing makeup and nice clothes makes me feel good always. Hate it when things are tight and I don't like what I see in the mirror. Looking after myself is for ME and is quite liberating too as watching your body and image change for the better feels powerful and one in the eye for everyone. Do it for you roseability, you will love the results and will go some way to making you feel good about yourself. Will look up narcissistic behaviour tonight and look forward to reading your future entries.

Hello

Thank you people who commented on my last post as 'approval' feels really nice

I'm a bit scared in case what I said encourages people to send letters and then they get really hurt by the results, as I don't want to feel it is my fault

I did get hurt as well as feeling better eventually long term. It makes lots of difficult feelings come up. For me I felt it was worth it in the end.

Exotic, the way I "rejected them back" was mainly inside of myself. There was some external rejection in my words to them "..our relationship is now irreparably damaged, and ....I don't care what your response is to what I've said, and ...if I had done some of the bad things people have done to me I would think I was a rubbish person, therefore that must mean they are/were rubbish people, so why would I put value on the opinion of them". And there is rejection in my limiting of contact.

But mainly the rejection is in how I think and feel about them. I stopped needing them because they weren't giving me what I needed. I gave up and looked for what I wanted elsewhere. I decided I didn't need to feel guilty about not doing more to 'help' them when I felt they were going through emotional difficulties and wondered why I was worrying and worrying about their wellbeing when I didn't feel they had ever done this for me.

Rose, I hope you are feeling better. When you are a bit ill physically and run down it is hard for anyone to think positively so don't beat yourself up too much about this. You are doing really well with working on your issues and it is bloody exhausting! You are allowed to feel worn out at times! I also think Exotic is right about different feelings coming out at different stages as you become more ready for them, and they make you feel awful for a while as you deal with them, and then that is another bit done and you are another bit better!

I seemed to get 'new' difficult things happening when I felt I had done my hardest bits and I felt angry that something else had happened. I started to notice that these things seemed to spookily happen at the 'right' time for bringing up feelings about the 'stage' of processing I was 'on' with things in my head. I'm not sure if this makes sense. Each time though, after the situation had calmed down, I felt I had sorted out another 'bit' and the experience had helped me find a new way of thinking about another aspect of my life in a way that made me feel much better about it. When difficult phases happened after that, I started to think in the middle of it, I wonder if this is one of those things which feels really bad now, and I wish it wasn't happening, but by the time I've found ways to cope with it and useful ways to think about it, and it's all calmed down, maybe that will be another bit of processing done which makes me feel better about something else from the past and makes me feel equipped to cope with another type of thing in the future and feel ok about it from then on.

Sin, my DH and I were just talking the other day about children who go to 'posh' schools because they are extra clever but then struggle when they don't fit in with the kids who are from a posh background when they are not. There was a boy on a tv program in that situation and someone from DH's work, who is quite messed up by it. We were saying one shouldn't underestimate the bad effect it can have. The effect on any child of feeling like they don't fit in and belong, and feeling rejected by the rest of the 'group' is incredibly damaging long term. It's because they are being rejected for who they are at a young age when they don't know how to deal with this.

People must be able to cope with rejection better from people in the 'outside world' if they have/had parents who they knew would love them just for being them. This must give them an inbuilt feeling that they are good enough to be loved, it is possible for some people to love them, they do have some good things about them, so all is not lost if some people reject them. Sadly, lots of people don't have parents who give them this do they Writing this it strikes me that this is the one most important thing we must do for our children. It is far less important whether we do hundreds of 'educational' activities with them, or keep the home spotless, or badger them until they get all their spellings right or whatever and achieve massively educationally or financially etc. Just know that if you feel you have made your children feel loved that day, just for being them, then you have done your job as their parent that day and should be proud of your ability to do your job as parent.

I've just thought of another thing, from people talking about body image. When you look at people you like, what do you judge their value to you by? I bet it is not their body shape! This means that your body shape is not very important to others either, compared to your other qualities.

OSAHM - your post has been a great help to me today. I had another poor sleep last night and feel terrible. I think you are right that I am processing some 'new' stuff. I realise that I just don't miss my adoptive parents. I miss the ideal of a loving mother and father but not actually them IYSWIM. It has made me realise that the cost to myself of trying to have a proper relationship with them is too high. I still don't know if I will go no contact forever, but I know it will never be the same. With that realisation comes grief, doubt, guilt and a little bit of fear. I deal with those feelings and feel a little stronger but then like you said something else triggers them again. However I think I do come out each time with a new perspective and a way of dealing with things

I have to start being proactive about my life. For now I will just concentrate on getting better and resting when I can.

I love what you said about loving your children for what they are each day. I feel these days people are so hung up on education and attainment it is easy to forget this. My DS is a very independent little boy who doesn't need huge amounts of interaction. He loves just playing away by himself most of the time. I worry that I don't teach him enough so what you said has reassured me. He certainly knows I love him dearly.....for who he is, good and bad.

Rose, so glad you are posting again. And I am happy to be posting again. Calvados, yes I agree that this thread is a safe outlet for releasing difficult feelings and thoughts, am so glad you feel that way too.

Rose, I can relate to so much of what you said in your post yesterday (20.38). When I read your recent posts, it seems to me that you are treading the same path I was on not that long ago. I remember posting about wishing I had some freedom or 'me' time as you put it. Like you, I felt like I had finally found myself and I wanted to go out into the world and to just be 'me' and see what happened. But I felt so constrained by my responsibilities as a wife and mother, being 'me' was way down on the list of priorities. I felt very discontented and very unhappy for quite some time. I dreamt of leaving DH and the DC's behind and having a year off, by myself, to just be 'me'. At the time I could never quite work out whether I was in fact going through a mid life crisis as I am going to be 40 this year, or whether my feelings had something to do with all my childhood stuff. Reading your post now makes me realise that how I felt then was probably more to do with my childhood stuff and less to do with a mid life crisis. So thank you for posting about how you are feeling, you have helped me clarify my similar experience.

I have somehow managed to get through those feelings and have come out the other side feeling so much better. I have found ways to be 'me', within the context of my family. Logistically, practically and financially it is a lot harder and more expensive for me to be 'me' within my family, but it can be done and I am doing it and it feels really good.

I have started to be a bit bolder and more adventureous with booking family holidays (hence the new name!) and have made a conscious decision to be less child focussed as a family and bit more 'me' focussed. So eg. if we decide to go to a restaurant, I will now pick somewhere that I (and DH) would like to go and I no longer worry whether it will be suitable for the DC's or whether they will like the food there. I take the DC's to places I would like to go to and no longer worry if they don't like it. And I feel so much better for it. Before, I was totally child focussed and was thinking only about the things they would like to see and do, pretty much to the total exclusion of my own desires and needs. And I ended up miserable. Now things seems much more balanced, both the DC's and my needs are being accomodated. It all sounds obvious and easy to do, but for me, until I had travelled that part of my journey, it was impossible to consider doing things in this way. I suppose 'me' didn't exist, I ignored my own needs, as I was brought up to do. It's only after I found 'me', that I started to realise what my needs were and from there, started to find ways to accomodate and meet them.

OSAHM, thank you for posting more about your letters and how you rejected certain people. I feel very strongly that I want to reject my sister and I want her to know I am rejecting her. At the moment it feels like she has rejected me and it just feels wrong. Perhaps I will write her a letter, although I may not send it. Like you have confirmed writing (and perhaps sending) letters will make a lot of difficult feelings come up. It might sound weird but I want this to happen. Because like you have said, I feel I know now the course this journey takes, over and over again, and I feel I can cope with it. I have been through the cycle enough times and like you, now I feel I am beginning to recognise when I am going through it, what is happening.

I go through what Rose is describing, sleep poorly, wake up feeling dreadful, my eczema seems to get a bit worse, but I somehow manage to work out what I need to process emotionally, and then I start to feel better, my energy levels shoot up and I feel really good. I am glad some of you have described the same process in your own way, as there was a time recently when I began to wonder whether i was bi-polar. I have a friend who was diagnosed as being bi-polar after she had her first and only child and suffered severe post natal psychosis such that she was in a psychiatric hospital for 6 months following the birth of her child. In her case, I get the feeling that she has not developed an awareness as to where her feelings come from. I know she still suffers from bouts of depression and sees a counsellor, but she seems to put it down to work stress etc. I am sure that work is probably only acting as a trigger for her and is not the root cause of her depression, although I have never suggested this to her, nor would I consider doing that. I feel it is very much up to each individual as to whether they want to open their 'Pandora's Box' or not.

I agree with your thoughts about rejection and handling it as an adult. If you have been rejected from the very start of your life, I am sure you would develop a very deep and real fear of feeling rejection in the future. You would never put yourself in the position of possibly being rejected.

I feel this is a bit of a breakthrough for me. I have never before realised that I was in fact 'rejected' by my mother. I have used words such as 'abandoned' and 'neglected', but I realise now that 'rejected' is actually more accurate than either of the other words. And it explains so much. Why I never chose friends but always let friends choose me. Because in that scenario there is no chance of being rejected. Because if a somebody has chosen me to be their friend I cannot be rejected by them; unlike if I chose somebody to be friends with, where there is the possibility that they might not want to be friends with me and could reject me. I feel I was rejected by my mother but not initially by my father. I was later rejected by him when he became mentally ill. I was also always rejected by my sisters who never wanted me to be part of their group. I realise most of my friendships are with people who have chosen me to be their friend, rather than me choosing them. And so no wonder so many of these friendships have not been good for me, as the other person had their own best interests at heart in choosing me. They chose me for what they could get from me, I can see that so clearly now. I am sure it was all driven at a subconscious level, I am sure these friends were not consciously aware of what they were doing. But realising this now I feel will give me more confidence about making friends in the future.

Sometimes I think people are drawn to others who seem worse off than them because that makes them feel better about themselves. I have had this sort of feeling about a 'friend' I have been in touch with. Whilst she has been supportive and willing to listen about my family issues and she has been non-judgmental and understanding, at the same time I have always had a slight feeling that she was also being a bit 'voyeuristic' about it all. About being privy to my private inner pain and turmoil, not in an empathetic way, but in an observatory manner. It doesn't mean I don't want to be friends with her anymore, but I am far more aware of the true dynamics of our relationship than I was before, which in turn means I am less likely to get hurt by her. It means I am more able to look after myself emotionally, and be the parent to myself that I never had.

Exotic, many thanks for talking about friendships and how being chosen by, rather than choosing friends is safer when you can't handle the possibility of being rejected. I can recognise that with my friendships. Also, I was not the pro-active person in the group and just went with the flow. I am glad to say that I am a lot more choosy these days but to the point where I am not too involved with any particular friends as I am still protecting myself and do not feel bad to cut someone off if their behaviour is toxic towards me. Hope this doesn't sound like I'm being hard. I guess I fear that I cannot just abandon myself to the joy of liking someone just for who they are warts and all. I can accept that with my own children but friendships have to fulfil a very rigid test i.e loyalty, respect. Above all, the slightest hint of jealousy and I am off! Too much of that from DM and DS. Exotic, I like how you deal with your friend, by acknowledging and understanding the dynamic between you even though you suspect it may be slightly voyeuristic on her part. I would like to get to that stage, where it wouldn't bother me down the line. I think the way I am now, I would start withholding info that might 'feed' her interest. It would sour the frienship inevitably. May be it's too hard for me still to trust anyone out of my own immediate family.

Exotic, with regard to your sister and wanting to reject her, do you think she might respond well to a letter? I know my DS will back my mother one hunder pc. In fact, I must thank you all for putting me on the path to investigating personality disorders. Roseability thank you for bringing up NPD, I was on the internet til early hours this morning with my DH as I had my eureka moment. Everything seems to fit in to place re my DM (classic narcissist - withdrawn) and my DS (enabler) behaviour. It feels so good to have a term for this condition as I feel complete relief that this is their tragedy. The fact that I have gone non contact and actually do not miss them except for the ideal of the perfect family. I could not stop reading about it on the NPD forum and will post the link later in case you have not come across it. I know now that my sister has not spoken to me in 8 years along with my DM because she is an enabler of my mother's NPD and resents me for upsetting her DM. I have to accept that I can stop dreaming about the perfect daughter/mother relationship, it will never happen. I was in love with an ideal that I know now is just an ideal. It feels like I can breathe and that it is not me who is completely barking (as I have been led to believe by my DM and DS). Exotic, I can see now that being rejected (not abandoned or neglected) is all part and parcel of NPD in my situation. I can honestly say that I would rather be 'rejected' than become an 'enabler' which is a prison sentence in my opinion.
Oh, yes, I remember when I was about 11 or 12 yrs my DM telling me that I was so nasty that I would never have children! I grew up thinking that this was true and couldn't wait to get married and have my own, which I did, to prove her wrong. Of course, DM cannot remember ever saying anything so horrid to me! All part of NPD! So glad to have a point of reference now, it has made me feel loads better

So it turns out we all have a vomiting bug on top of my chest infection! No wonder I was feeling so rotten. I still feel rough but well enough to post here. I just feel such a sense of relief to be posting again and it makes me realise how much this thread helps me

I realise now a big trigger is when I or the kids are ill. Why? I think it is partly that like any mum I find it tough looking after two small children when I am ill. The obvious trigger of the lack of a mother to turn to for sympathy when this happens always upsets me. But I looked deeper and had a light bulb moment. I read sometime/somewhere (linked to narcissism) that NPD parents lack empathy and thus the ability to really sympathise with their children when they are ill. At the time it stirred me but I couldn't put my finger on it. Since then some memories have come flooding back. Whenever I was ill/hurt my adoptive parents were emotionally unavailiable and always seemed to blame me for the illness/injury. They did the basics (kept me off school, fed me, gave me medicine etc) but they would be distant or even angry. I think to a narcissist, another person's illness is either an intrusion on their perfect imaginery world or a means to gain supply (oh poor me, I am suffering because I am worried about ds/dd).

So having never had that love as a child, when I am ill now I get angry that I don't get it now. But I realise that whilst people who love me will of course be sympathetic and help, I am not a kid anymore. I am a mother who has to just get on with it to some extent. The inner child in me wants to shout 'I am so ill, please mother me'.

My DS was sick today and immediately I forgot my self pity about my chest infection and helped him. I genuinely felt sorry for him and wanted to make it better. I didn't downplay it or suggest he was making mountains out of molehills. I cuddled up with him on the sofa and let him watch his favourite cartoons. Children who have had this, I feel, grow up to be more secure as adults and don't seek pity and sympathy to an unhealthy level (of course everyone likes sympathy and regards when they are ill)

I will never forget being ill at about the age 6/7. My Grandmother said quite coldly 'well you shouldn't go out without your coat then should you' and that was it. Now I am sure I would also nag my DS if he was going out without a coat on and catching colds. But it was more than that with her, like detachement.

Well I have to go for now but will post when I feel better about the jealousy thing

Also by singling me out as the only person on this thread that she had a problem with and making out that I was the problem, (instead of realising that she is the one who has unresolved issues which were probably being triggered by my posts) she has unintentionally triggered a whole host of emotions from my past. She made me feel once again how my dad used to make me feel when he used to openly tell me that i was the problem child in the family, that i was the bad, difficult one, whilst my sisters were the 'good', 'well behaved' children. Being singled out from amongst a group and told you are the problem is horrible, i went through that as a child and i certainly don't want to go through it again, especially not on this thread and especially when it's not even the truth. I deeply resent and am extremely angry at spiky for having the arrogance to tell me that my posts are causing problems for her, when it seems obvious to me that my posts are merely triggering problems that she has already got. She is not even aware that she is scapegoating me and blaming me for her own problems. I may have put up with being scapegoated by my family for years but i am certainly not going to put up with it from somebody such as spiky who i think should spend more time reading and reflecting upon herself than posting on this thread.

that wtsaf and so many other things you have posted really hit home to me how i feel!

Mam pan sorry to hear about your stuff x

I feel vounerable at the moment, posted another thread on here, I know there is a good future for me, it is just taking a very long time.

wtsaf, my brother is abusive to me, he has just had a baby and lives abroad, I am fearfull that he will hurt me again if I do what you did with your siblings, how did you manage it? The only one I have told in extended family is an uncle, who I think felt bad, we had been isolated from family so they were not in touch, we moved 18 times and went to 11 schools different towns/countries etc...

People must be able to cope with rejection better from people in the 'outside world' if they have/had parents who they knew would love them just for being them. This must give them an inbuilt feeling that they are good enough to be loved, it is possible for some people to love them, they do have some good things about them, so all is not lost if some people reject them. Sadly, lots of people don't have parents who give them this do they sad Writing this it strikes me that this is the one most important thing we must do for our children. It is far less important whether we do hundreds of 'educational' activities with them, or keep the home spotless, or badger them until they get all their spellings right or whatever and achieve massively educationally or financially etc. Just know that if you feel you have made your children feel loved that day, just for being them, then you have done your job as their parent that day and should be proud of your ability to do your job as parent.

Wow that is a great quote and so true!

Calvados, I am the same with friends myself these days. I am not too involved with any one particular friend and am quite quick to distance myself if I sense any toxic behaviour towards me. I don't see that as being hard but shows a healthy sense of self respect and self esteem. I don't necessarily cut the friend out of my life altogether, but put them in the background of my life.

With my 'voyeuristic' friend, I was not that bothered or upset by her voyeur stance. She has been through some tragic experiences in her life and so even though she was being a voyeur about my particular family issues which she does not have herself, she has enough compassion and empathy to be a 'good enough' friend for me. I was a bit upset recently by some negative comments she made about a holiday I had booked and was clearly excited about. I don't know why she had to burst my bubble in that way, perhaps she was jealous? I don't know, but I have decided to let it go. Because if i cut out everybody who occasionally said something hurtful/tactless/insensetive, I would have no friends left. But it is important to note that I feel this way now, not that long ago I was cutting people out quite ruthlessly every time they stepped out of line and got so down about it all I told DH I was fed up of people and wanted to get a dog! I can see I went from one extreme of being too trusting in my desperation for the attention and affection that had been so lacking from my parents all my life, to then becoming all too aware of how my
friendships were actually quite toic and cutting them out, to where I am now, which seems to be a far more balanced approach. But I think I had to go through the other stages to get where I am now. Like TRS said a while ago, we cannot skip parts of our journey to get to the 'good' bits quicker, every stage is important and must be completed before moving onto the next stage.