'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Smithfield you have totally hit the nail on the head. I honestly thought that my days of trying to 'win something that will never come' were over. I realise now that they are not. My DH says to me quite often, "I don't know why you bother to phone your mother and tell her these things". What he is referring to is everytime I get excited about something or have some news I phone my mother and more often than not she shoots me down or just gets me so cross. Yet for some stupid reason like a fool I keep going back for more.

I have a desperate need in me for people to like me and think I am a good person. I don't however have many friends or make friends easily because I find it really hard to relate to other women because I am constantly comparing myself to them.

Are they thinner than me, do they have more money than me, did they have a better education than me, did they come from a well off background, have they got a wonderful career? If the answer is yes to these questions I just feel so inadequate compared to these people that I can't make friends because I just think 'why would they want to be friends with me'? I probably appear to be rude (and people have commented that on first appearances they think I'm a bitch) but I get tongue-tied and can't relate to people because of my inadequacies.

At times it makes me quite sad that I can't make friends. We've been to quite a few weddings in the last 2 years and it made me sad to think that I would never have a close enough friend to ask me to be there Matron of honour or I'll never organise anyone's hen night. Pathetic isn't it?!!

I feel better now for having a cry, I don't do it very often as it's a sign of weakness (the unspoken rule in our family). Something I have noticed about myself is that I find it really hard to comfort my 10 year old DD when she is crying. I find it mych easier to comfort my DS (6yrs), I don't know why. I force myself to comfort DD however because I don't want her to go through what I did as a child, that unloving feeling. There are similarities in my behaviour and my mothers. I was never comforted, hugged or told I was loved. My mum re-married (for the 3rd time) and I have another brother who is 11 years younger than me. He was cuddled, comforted and told he was loved. I (equally)tell both my DC's how much I love them and we have lots of cuddles but when it comes to comforting my DD when she is upset I just find it so hard.

I've really felt sorry for myself today haven't I?!! I feel very guilty for such a self centred act on my part.

Sorry, their Matron of Honour.

mampam DO NOT FEEL GUILTY.... please dont feel guilty.
You have been made for so long to feel that you have to be their version of you. You are entitled to how you feel as much as the next person.
It is time to start re-building yourself from the inside out. Start living how you want to live and the rest will fall into place.
I think by admitting that you cant win their approval you will feel a sense of huge loss initially perhaps but afterwards you will probably find it incredibly freeing.
Imagine having all that freedom to do whatever you want and say I really dont care what any of you think about me anymore as long as I am happy.
You can take better care of yourself than they ever could or were ever capable of.
Having these insights now will heal the relationship with your dd, but you have to heal the relationship between the adult you and the little girl inside first. Start fighting her corner.x

Hi everyone

Sorry to crash into your thread unnanounced, but just wondering if anyone might be able to help me on my thread?

My XP has a very difficult history with his parents and what I would consider to be an abusive mother - lies about pivotal events in his life, loads him with guilt, doesn't accept his relationships with other people unless sanctioned by her. I think this will all come out in the wash as he is hopefully going to receive treatment for a terrible addiction problem which has been ongoing in one form or another for 22 yrs.

Everyone is on board to help him, all talking openly for the first time about it etc. Except his Mum who refuses to talk to anyone about it.

Aaanyway - not to get off the point. We've established with a specialist he needs psychiatric and psychological help and although he's got loads of support from the people around him - we don't have money and need the NHS to help.

Apologies to gatecrash again, but here is the link and thanks so much in advance to any of you who might have any advice. When in doubt, ask MN!

Here is my thread.

Lots of new posts, I really want to respond to Rose first. Thank you for your post. It has really helped me. I agree, I think my dad is a narcissist and he has never seen me an an individual who is entirely seperate from him with my own unique thoughts and feelings. This must be why he never, after a verbal assault on me, thought about the effects it would have on me. Because in his mind I did not exist as a seperate person. And later on when he felt better having released the angry tension inside him onto me, he thought I felt much better too and so it follows why he seemed completely unable to understand why I was not feeling good the next day. Sorry, I am just repeating what you have told me, I am just writing it down in my own words to help the full impact of what you have said sink into my brain.

How tragic for a child, not just me, but all of us, to live a life, a childhood, without ever once being seen as a whole seperate person. I think the penny is finally dropping. If my dad never saw me as a seperate individual, then he would of course never stop to think about my feelings. He would only ever focus on his feelings, such as they were. I know narcissists can only experience a limited range of feelings, his seemed to consist of anger/rage/hatred/contempt/derision or feeling ok.

I have been very slow to grasp this. I have been going on and on wondering how could my dad not have considered the effects of his verbal assaults on me, when of course, to him, there was no me.

Rose Thank you also for talking about how my parents have not got away with it. My initial response to your post was that to me they truly seem to not be bothered by the fact they have lost a daughter and 2 gorgeous grandchildren. I have felt for a long time that losing me was a relatively small loss to them, in fact I felt like they were most likely glad to be rid of me seeing as they seemed to believe i was the troublemaker in the family, always rocking the boat and not allowing the rest of them to live peacefully. This was reinforced by the fact that whenever i received snippets of news about them from various people, i got the impression that it was 'business as usual' for them. They seemed to be carrying on with life as if nothing had happened. My sister told me they were 'devasted' by me cutting ties with them. She no doubt thinks they are devasted to have lost a daughter who they have so lovingly nurtured and cherished all their lives, (but that was her experience not mine). I think it was not devastation at losing a daughter and really feeling the loss of losing a much loved and valued member of the family, but more shock and devastation at the fact that I had had the guts to walk away from them and lead my own independent life. I think they thought they had done such a good job on me of making me feel useless and hopeless and inadequate and feeling like I would not be able to survive without them and their 'love' that I would never even contemplate doing such a thing as cutting ties with them. I am sure they thought they would have me as their uncomplaining, toxic waste dump forever and so I am sure they were completely shocked and devastated when one day I got up and walked away.

And any sadness they might feel about the situation would be sadness for themselves for having such an unforgiving, ungrateful daughter, after all they had done for me in bringing me up.

I do feel though, that even though like you said my parents may not be able to feel their loss, my walking away will have had an impact on the family and changed the dynamics. Perhaps it will take a while for these changes to take place. Perhaps for a while, they might have thought I would eventually come to my senses and go back to them in which case we would all no doubt have resumed our old roles. But perhaps now that it is nearly 4 years since i saw them, they might start realising that I am not coming back and a new dynamic will come into play. I suppose what i am secretly wanting to see happen is for a new person to take my old role as the toxic waste dump and for that person to then step out of the family drama and stand alongside me. I know that can happen as I remember in Pages' story her older brother had 'stepped out' of her family drama many years ago and she, as the next eldest sibling, was the next one to step out. She realised that her brother had seen the family drama for what it was years beforehand, although for all that time he has been painted as the black sheep by their mother. Pages began to see what her brother had already seen and she, after a long time, got in touch with her brother.

I know this is really wishful thinking on my part. It is probably unlikely this will ever happen in my 'story'. But i can still hope I suppose. Hoping for something better is what keeps us all going a lot of the time.

Again sorry for so much rambling about me.

mampam, your post has made me cry, I wish I was there to give you a hug. I am so glad you have posted lots about yourself on here. I get the feeling you needed to get all that out, that you have been holding it in for years and now partly you are crying with the relief of letting it all out to people who understand.

I can also relate to so much of what you have said. My youngest sister was the golden child and like your brother, her life has been so much easier and smoother than mine in every way imaginable. And as a result, today, she is unbelievably arrogant, (like your brother?), judgmental and critical of others, self centred and completely lacking in sympathy or compassion. She seems to think if somebody else is having problems in their life it's because they are stupid or useless. It has I am sure, never occurred to her that she has had it far easier than me (or even middle sister), because, unlike me, she has had our parents' support, encouragement and love all her life. (I know it was not real love but at least she had the 'appearance' of being loved, I didn't even get that, I had the feeling of being hated and unwanted).

I have been feeling so angry at her recently, for her arrogant and judgmental attitude towards me throughtout the last 4 years since cutting ties with my parents. Like your brother mampam my sister is also so bloody righteous, it makes me sick and I would dearly love to go round to her house and tell her some home truths. Will do no such thing of course., But it explains why i have felt very impatient and unduly cross with DS recently, it's my anger at my sister spilling out.

I can also relate to you talking about finding it hard to comfort your DD when she is upset. I used to find it very, very hard to do this, if not impossible, a while ago. I find it a bit easier these days, but it still doesn't come naturally. The trouble is I think my initial feelings of finding it really hard have set up a vicious circle. I am sure DD knows she 'needs' to be comforted by me and for quite a long time, comfort from me was not forthcoming, or it felt stilted and awkward and unnatural . But because of DD's instintive need to know that I will comfort her if she needs it, I think she seeks comfort more than really necessary because she needs to be reassured that it will be there when she needs it. And because before she must have felt uncertain and insecure as to whether her need for comfort will be met by me, (I remember, if DH was around I would always avoid doing any 'comforting' if it was needed and hand it over to him) she now seeks it out more than necessary as she needs to feel secure in knowing that I will be able to comfort her. It's not like this with DS, in fact it's the opposite, if he has hurt himself he wants to be left alone, not hugged and kissed which I am wanting to do.

I am truly rambling now, sorry, I hope it makes a tiny bit of sense.

Bop Happy Birthday for yesterday. I have had some very 'down' and emotional birthdays over the last few years so I know a bit of how you were feeling yesterday.

Bop, OSHAM and TRS, you all make some very good points.

I have to say that I personally did feel attacked, criticised and judged by Spiky. And I am glad she is no longer posting on this thread. However if she did post again, I feel much more confident about speaking out if I felt I was being attacked again. I realise I had zero confidence about doing this before. And I realise that all of you will not immediately jump on me if I did speak out, and without listening to me, tell me I am wrong and I am being confrontational and unreasonable etc and gang up on me and ultimately reject me. Seeing how conflict has been dealt with on this thread has given me a whole new experience, but this time a positive one, to counter my lifetime of negative experiences of how to manage disagreement and conflict within my family.

I find I am disagreeing quite strongly with many of Grace's views, which i suppose is a new experience for me on this particular thread. However, if I feel i can express my disagreement without then feeling scared that other people will then start attacking me, then I see that as a positive thing.

I do very much agree with Bop that comparing being bitten by a cat to being abused for years by one's family is utterly ridiculous and is just one of the posts written by Grace that unfortunately lead me to the conclusion that I really have very little respect for her opinion on any of the issues discussed here.

canany, hi, have just read your thread. I have no experience of your particular situation so am really not sure what you could do.

The only vaguely similar experience i know of is with a friend who managed to have her care (medical and psychiatric at a well know rehabilitation clinic) funded through her private medical insurance from work. You said your XP has a good job, does he have private medical cover? If so it would be worth checking to see if he is covered for this situation and bypass the NHS altogether.

hi

I have been reading this thread with interest as alot of the experiences you describe seem familiar to me!. I would not have described my childhood as abusive but it was difficult for a number of reasons, my mothers illness and my fathers temper (although never violent) we also moved 19 times for some reason and no matter what they were miserable.I was wondering how many people still have this influence in their life now? My father has been a constant source of stress for me since my mother died 10 year ago (I was 17) I havent lived with him since then but he always seems to be a strong influence in my life. I feel very upset talking to him alot of the time,he has treated me shabbily since my mother died (and when I look back I was still really childish at 17) - he sent me to live in the attic because only a couple of month after my mother died he moved his girlfriend in and her daughter (who only lived there one weekend out of two) needed a bed. wouldnt have been so bad if it was a complete conversion but it wasnt you had to use a ladder to get up and it was used for storing boxes etc still. I moved out after a couple of months and havent been back since.
Really it has gone on from there, its all about him, he makes a show of being helpful like feeding our cat when we were away but when I come back he starts discussing with everyone how awful my house is, how I am lazy, how I should be doing better. I did a maths and physics course at the OU recently because I have been a SAHM for years and just wanted to learn somthing new and his response was "well it must be easy if you passed" and to tell me that my step sister who was doing a levels at the time could have done it in her sleep. I told him I was pregnant with our fourth child today and his response was " theres something wrong with you, you need to learn abotu contraception".

I know these sound like really trivial things, and these are just a few examples but I have suffered with anxiety and depression for years (although i am feeling quite good at the moment). When I speak to him I feel very low again I was in tears today which is ridiculous.

My question is if you still have your parents in your life how do you go about NOT being upset over this? I dont have any other family and so I feel I haev to stay in contact with him but it I have realized that the whole thing makes me feel ill so I am thinking is it worth it?

Hi wanttostartafresh - thanks for looking that is really nice of you . He doesn't have medical insurance and neither of us can find that amount of cash - I think it may be the same well known clinic as your friend went to - one branch of it anyway.

A development today is that his mother has apparently said she will pay it all. This is after months of her refusing to engage with anyone about how to help him, and her continually giving him money. I think it has come to a head after I didn't let her see dd this week as she was aware of the heroin and did not see fit to tell me. A bit of me is concerned that this is just her buying his debt though. A grandiose gesture after refusing to communicate with any of the people who have been supporting him for s long to try and stop. Something just doesn't ring true about it!

I feel this whole concept of narcissism needs to be out in the public sphere more. I think people who have no experience with a narcissist don't understand it or don't want to understand it. It is the crux behind a lot of child abuse I feel and needs to be studied and understood more.

Bop - Happy Birthday! Sorry you have been feeling low. I think anniversaries and special dates are hard when you have had an abusive childhood. Look after yourself and treat yourself if you can.

You made a point which really struck me. It was about the juxtaposition of joy and sadness in your life. I have been feeling so much more anger and sadness about my childhood, yet also much more joy about my current life. It is like the diseased outer layers have been torn away allowing good things in to heal the wound left. I still need to work at the deeper layers though, to heal completely

Which leads me onto another thought. I have been thinking about repressed memories and I am sure I have some I need to access. I am wondering about hypnotherapy? Or maybe that is not such a good idea. I struggle to think of happy memories from childhood and can only remember a handful of bad ones. There is just this overwhelming sense that it was all wrong, that my adoptive parents didn't feel right. Outwardly I loved and trusted them for my own survival but inwardly I had feelings I couldn't articulate at the time, of not trusting them and not feeling they had my best interests at heart.

I am also beginning to realise I developed some narcissistic traits myself. I am not narcissistic of course because I have insight. But I did struggle to feel sometimes, I mean really feel emotions. I always felt in competition with people, like I had to be better than everybody or I was worse than everybody. This came from my adoptive father and it was my survival technique I realise now, but it caused me to act quite sefishly at times. Living with narcissists is hell on earth it really is. It screws your head.

It is different now I have worked on myself. I not only feel the sadness and anger but I can really empathise with people. I see their point of view, their joys, their sadness. I want to be the best that I can be as a mother, a friend, a wife etc but I don't feel the need to compete with others. I am worthwhile because I am me, not because I am better than him and her and them.

This competition didn't stem from self confidence but from self doubt and dislike. So there is the juxtaposition or the trade off if you like. I have lost my adoptive parents (although I never really had them) and the illusion of a happy childhood. But I have gained love, empathy and a beautiful family of my own.

Hi Mampam - your post really resonated with what I last wrote. The constant comparing of yourself to others. I too have struggled to make close friends and have never been a bridesmaid (a thorn of mine too). It is the result of you mother's lack of love, warmth and support and don't doubt it. You are on a journey but you will reach a destination. One which will give you more confidence in yourself and help you to stop internalising that critical voice of your mother's. I always felt in competition with other women but it is changing. I am beginning to make some really nice friends. Keep posting here

Fernie your post is very sad. And many of the things your father says sound like the sort of thing my parents say.My father was always fond of telling me I knwo nothing about anything. Recently he described a meal I prepared for him as 'slop'. I remember also my brother saying when I got my MFA 'that's a nice little qualification for you' as if I was about 6. All small. insignificant jibes on their own, but it is belittling and over time the drip effect of it is damaging. Any retort on my part would be responded to with further teasing or with rage.

I cannot imagine how you must have felt when your mother died, I am so sorry for this and the way you were treated.

I have attempted to cut down the contact I have with my family but in setting some basic boundaries with my mother the knock-on effect has been that she has maligned me so much to my family, extended family and family friends, playing such a victim act that none of them want anything to do with me.

So I am in a tricky situation. I want to be able to get to some adult level of relationship with my parents but as try to do this the way they 'retaliate' makes me feel so angry and hurt by them that I cannot bring myself to speak to them. It's a bit of a 'Catch 22'. So nothing really changes. Nothing I do seems to have any positive effect. I am however getting better in myself, with therapy, which is making the lives of my DH and children so much better. And that is a big plus.

Supporting you Bop. We are all on a different journey and a different stage on the journey so that should be respected

Happy Birthday Bop. Hope you are feeling ok. Birthdays can be really hard.

Divingintoeternity what a fab post and good luck to you.x

I am finding this thread a bit difficult at the moment. There seems to be a lot of arguments and new people and it really doesn't feel all that safe.

divingintoeternity- I am sad to see you go but happy for you at the same time. It's strange because I kind of expected it.
I was thrilled to read the part about your dd... it can only get better.
Thankyou for sharing your journey I feel priveleged to have shared some of it with you.

I feel I also need to say goodbye too . Nothing to do with the recent arguments or different perspectives which have been aired here.
It's just that I feel at peace with many things now and feel ready to stride out on my own.
It is the right time for me to re-engage with my life and have the confidence that I 'can' do it.
Diving said it all much more eloquently than I ever could but this thread has supported me so much and I want to thank everyone who has helped me.

divingintoeternity what an intensely beautiful post. Thank you very much for your comments and advice. xxx

Diving, although I don't like people leaving I feel happy for you because you are leaving for good reasons rather than bad. Your post is inspiring.

I love the way you described your feelings about your DD. I felt this too about my children a while back and it seemed like a sudden eye-opening surprise to me! I wonder why it was so sudden. Around that time was when I started to 'wean myself off' Therapist and go to see him less and less often. It felt like such a relief to feel what I thought I should have been feeling at home, for the DCs and for DH, and I just didn't feel such a strong need to go and see Therapist anymmore.

One of Rose's posts seems related to this, when she said that she was feeling more anger etc but also feeling more of the positive emotions as well. I used to work really hard in the gym, til it really hurt, in a kind of aggressive, angry, self-punishing way. The pain didn't seem to bother me, I seemed to like it. The more I went to see Therapist, it started to hurt more in the gym. I started to feel like I didn't really like it hurting too much. I remember saying to him about it hurting more and about feeling more angry lately, but surprisingly, when something made me happy I was feeling REALLY happy. I was feeling more of EVERYTHING. I think it must be common because he did this look he does of being not the slightest bit surprised to hear it because he has heard it before from other people many times. But basically, as I felt more of the anger I felt more of the love for my children and could SEE more of their little details and things that make them, them. It felt like I had been partially blinded before.

Also, I've always played and instrument and been into music, but I suddenly started to really feel the music and my ability with my instrument improved quickly. I started to like listening to a wider range of music as well and appreciated what goes into it more - like I could suddenly hear ALL of it in detail rather than a vague impression. The joy I get from music really makes my life good (I'm quite obsessed with it really). It gives me a constant thing to look forward to which makes me want to live even more and really counteracts depression.

Thank you Roseability I felt a bit silly about the bridesmaid thing until I read your post.

As I'm having a baby in May I'm going to try my hardest to join Mother and Baby groups and make new friends. I know the stumbling block for me will be other mums who already know each other and I won't feel like I can intrude on their already established friendships or will feel left out if they don't talk to me as much as anyone else.

I always blamed not being able to make friends with other mums from DC's school on the fact that DD didn't start at that school until year 1 (she went to another school previously and a pre-school that didn't feed the new school). I now know it is just me and the problems and insecurities I have about making friends because other children have joined the school not from the beginning and their parents have made friendships with other parents. I find it awful watching mums at the school gates nattering away and I don't have that.

I don't know if this stigmatism I have of people who are well off/higher educated than I am comes from my mother. My mother fell pregnant at 17 with my older brother, she was at somepoint married to his father but it didn't work out, she then met and married my father who was Nigerian training to be a Naval officer at the local Naval College. I assume (as I've never been told) that being Nigerian he didn't have a Visa and was deported. I grew up on a council estate, with my mother being a single parent until she married my step-father when I was 8 years old. They still live in a house rented from a housing association despite my SF having a fairly well paid job and my mother works part-time from which any money she earns is her own to with what she likes.

Their home is like a show home. It's by far the nicest home in the street. Full of expensive furniture etc. My mother is always very well dressed. The thing I have always found funny about her is that if she is talking to somebody who she deems to be wealthy/highly educated she will change the tone of her voice and her mannerisms to suit.
It is like she is trying to make out to others that she is something she is not.

To us my mother is one way, but to others she is totally different. Sometimes I feel like she is two different people. The nicer side of her being the one that other people see.

bodenbaby I can very much relate to your post especially when it comes to the criticism I face from my mother. I remember once someone paid a compliment about my hair and said to my mum 'doesn't mampams hair look lovely?' my mother replied 'I bet she hasn't washed it though'.

I've have had similar issues where DC's are concerned. When they were babies she would quite often mistakenly refer to herself as 'mummy'.

I too had PND with DS and I didn't dare to tell her. She would have thrived on it and probably would have acted in the same way as your mother did. When I had DD she tried to make out I had PND (I didn't) and tried to convince my then MIL (and probably anyone else that would listen)that I was 'gone in the head'.

My mother has a habit of making things up about me to other people. I quite often hear how 'down' I am from other people yet most of the time it's news to me!

I'm not really sure what to say re: advice for you. But I want you to know I share your frustrations. There are some great advice givers on this thread so stick with it.

Bodenbaby and Mampam, your mothers sound like they are fixated on trying to feel more important, but they are doing it by making their daughters feel like they are nothing

I do think it is emotionally abusive.

I find it hard to understand why mothers sometimes seem to be trying to compete with their children when surely they should want the best for their children and should be happy if their children do do better than them!