An update for 'Have I said the right thing to DH'

[mampam]

Hi, I just wanted to give an update on my previous thread 'Have I said the right thing to DH?'.

It was basically a thread about what to do about DH's estranged parents now that we are expecting a baby together. Now I am calling upon the wisdom of you fabulous MNers again as 3 significant things have happened since I started my last thread.

1) DH has had a breakdown. Two weekends before Christmas we got in the car to go Christmas shopping and it broke down. This obviously pushed DH over the edge and he had a breakdown. He had to be assessed at a hospital and was eventually sent home with Diazapam tablets. He seems a lot better now, his GP doesn't think he needs AD's (although I'm tending to disagree) and is on an unfortunately long waiting list for counselling. Sods law we can't afford to pay for it privately.

2) DH sent his family (parents, grandparents and uncle & aunt) a Christmas card with a 'PS, just to let you know that Mampam and I are expecting a baby in May'. Just before Christmas we had a card (an extra card as we'd already received a Christmas card) from DH's parents (written by MIL) saying that they were 'looking forward to being proud grandparents' and signed off the card with 'warmest wishes'. Normally when my name is in a card from IL's it's only 'from', IYSWIM?

3) Today we have received a letter from IL's (written by FIL) saying that they would like to establish contact and want to patch things up now that we are going to be new parents. There are of course the obligatory guilt trips in the letter like, 'if you are willing to get in touch great, if not we will have to accept it and get on with our lives'.

Basically, whilst IL's seem to be being very nice I'm still very sceptical. There's still not even a tiny hint of an apology for the way they have behaved. It's been nearly 3 years since we've had anything to do with them. I'm seriously worried DH's state of mind the way that it is that he will be sucked back into their controlling games. I know that it is ultimitely his decision. To be truthful I'm scared. Mainly for our marriage, I'm not sure it will survive another assault on it from IL's, if that is their agenda. They might be genuine but if not I just can't go through all that again. I'm frightened also for DH's mental health.

HELP!! Any thoughts on this matter, for an objective perspective would be gratefully accepted. Thank you in advance.

Mampam

I advised you as I have been through the same thing, sorry to hear about your H.

FIL and his wife bought me a xmas present and I was weakening although have kept strong and still refuse to speak to them.

I still think for everyones sake that you should not continue with this reunion. If they cannot apologise and they have done some shitty things by the sound of it, then they are truly not sorry and you DH is in no position to cope with them right now.

What does you H think?

I think you have to ask yourself if they have changed.

If they have, then great, maybe you can rebuild a relationship.

If they haven't changed, then everything that led to the breakdown of the relationship will simply happen again.

and ime - people don't often change!

So they'd need to show you (somehow!) that they'd changed.

This would involve being able to discuss what happened and acknowledge why it happened.

If they can't do that, or get defensive, or try to say any problem was 100% your fault, then you know it's a non-starter.

Heq you are too right, many a time I gave FIL chance after chance and each time he proved me right. He is now begging for another one and there is no way I am giving in. I would take Heq's advice here.

I'm not sure as yet that DH has had time to even think about it tbh. He's not ready to talk about it.

I don't want to influence his decision but I really hope he doesn't turn around and say he wants a fully fledged reunion. I don't think I will cope and I don't think in the long run he will cope either. I do however believe that DH thinks being on friendly terms is better than on awful terms with them like we are at the moment.

With the 'looking forward to being proud grandparents' comment, I know I shouldn't but I can't help but think to myself 'proud grandparents, you've been shit parents'.

Thankyou Lighthouse I truly appreciate all the advice you have given me.

Heqet, they have been given chance after chance after chance by DH (many more chances than I would have given) in the past to apologise but they haven't. Even a 'we're sorry for what's happened can we start again' would have sufficed but nothing.

I really can't tell if they have changed, not from the letters they have written. They have been given opportunities to show they've changed before and they do what is appropriate in front of DH but behind his back are exactly the way they were before.

I really think that DH will want to establish some form of contact but I want him to make sure that he lays the law down with them right from the start and make the boundaries clear. Only thing is DH is a total wimp when it comes to his parents and is easily bullied by them.

Mampam

Am very sorry to read what you and your husband have gone through to date. I wish your husband a speedy recovery.

The BACP have a list of counsellors and they don't charge the earth. Have you looked into BACP?.

His parents will never apologise for their actions, I am not at all surprised to see no mention of any sort of apology, toxic parents never apologise for their actions nor accept any real responsibility for them.

Trust your gut instincts here; nothing really has changed re them since last time.
Would not fall for any guilt trips they are laying on and I think they are again being disingeneous here. I would continue to keep and maintain distance both physically and emotiuonally from his parents for both your sakes as they have shown by their past actions to be as mad as a box of frogs.

Also such people are more than happy to pass on their toxic crap to the next generation. Shit parents can very well equal shit grandparents. They WILL find ways to control and manipulate the situation.

If you have not already read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward I would suggest you do so.

Mampam,

The problem as well is that when anyone has had a lifetime of conditioning from such toxic people like your H's parents clearly are it is very hard indeed to challenge and stand up to them. If he has not already done so he needs to sit down and start reading "Toxic Parents" as a starting point. Counselling for him re his relationship with his parents is also adviseable.

"FOG" - fear, obligation and guilt often come into play with victims of toxic parents.

Mamapam I remember your story from before. I think they are only interested because of the baby and I don't think it means they have changed or are willing to.

FOr the sake of your own little family I think you should keep well away.

I think you need to stand firm, especially for your DH's sake. If you wish to establish contact, that's your decision but you're right to be wary. The first sign of any upset walk away, don't let them cause upset in your family life.

I hope your dh is feeling better soon. My DD is seeing a therapist and he is willing to take payment in installments, maybe you could find one like this?

Good luck with your pg.

My FIL has been spiteful about his own grandaughter in the past and said the reason they favoured his step grandson because my DD was difficult, this was said during a row.

They often make comparisons with other children in the family and I have now put a barr on them having DD alone. DH usually visits his dad with our DD. Aside from that I have stopped access unsupervised as there is a good chance they would hurt her, (not physically) just mentally.

Seriously chick, don't give in, I know it is tempting but they won't change.

If you explain to your DH about how strongly you feel about this I am sure he would understand.

Hi, I haven't really had a chance to talk to DH about this. I really do think ultimately that he will want to have some sort of contact with his parents.

All I have said to DH is that if he does decide to have contact with them he needs to set the terms. If they truly are genuine then they won't mind adhering to his terms. They are the ones who are desperately trying to get in contact with DH not the other way around so they can like it or lump it really.

I also suggested that he does not give them our phone number or his mobile number, that perhaps he could ask them for their email address and stress to them that email is how the contact will be maintained for now. He could also open a new email address just for correspondence from his parents. He then doesn't have to check his emails if he doesn't want to or he can delete the account if it gets too much for him.

I want to stress that if some form of contact is maintained with IL's they will never be allowed to have our child on their own. I don't particularly want anything to do with them so it will be hard for them to see the baby for the first few months whilst I am breast feeding. I don't particularly want them in this house to be honest. That may be selfish of me but it's the way I feel.

I have had a look on the BACP website and there are a couple of therapists in our area but they charge £30+ per session so we won't be able to afford it.

Attilla, I have just ordered a copy of 'Toxic Parents'. Not sure if DH will read it as he has turned his nose up at it before but I'm going to read it and maybe he will listen if I relay some of the information.

I think "FOG" is an accurate description of DH's relationship with his parents. Unfortunately 20 odd years of grooming will take a lot of undoing.

myself and my husband have both been in this situation and it's very very hard- stressful for both of you.

in my husband's situation, he had a confrontation with his mum about various issues and his dad started threatening him physically... he has done many, many things over the years that were wholly inappropriate and abusive involving having sex with other women infront of him while he was a child and force feeding him... my husband and i have two small children of our own now though and this has given him the strength to draw a line in the sand (sorry for the Jeremny Kyle-ism) and say 'no more'. I backed him 100% and when his mother, who i agree to meet with occassionally without my DH present (with his knowledge though), suggested that his dad see the children i stated simply that unless he apologised for his behaviour to DH, that wouldn't happen. i explained that my DH and our children are a package deal. if he wants to see them, he respects their father and takes responsibility for his bad behaviour.

true to form he refused and so has still never even met our youngest. i left it at that and so don't see him either... i've stuck to my part and let his mum see the children and although she's a funny bugger and has no interest in taking them out/looking after them (it would interfere with her shopping schedule), she is clearly find of them and them, her.

my DH doesn't miss either of them, they have caused him no end of pain- from alcoholism, physical and verbal bullying to a complete lack of interest in him generally so he's better off out of their sad little lives.

if he's having mental breakdowns due to the stress of this situation and you have a baby due, he needs proper counselling to help him get a clearer perspective on what he really wants and needs. if you can, really push for that to happen before any decisions are made... he needs to talk it through with someone who has no part in the situation.

find = fond

blinks, so much of your post rings true. DH's parents have been given chance after chance to apologise and they have either point blank refused or said it in such a half hearted way ie DH once emailed his mother (when we knew her address) and simply said 'if you are never going to apologise just leave me alone, I don't want to know'. So she left a message on his mobile phone say she was 'sorry for whatever' but said in the same tone of voice as my 6 year old DS says sorry to his sister when he's in a strop.

I think when you say that you "explained that my DH and our children are a package deal" that is exactly it. We are a package deal and whilst I know that all this with DH's parents has come about because of their hatred of me, they have never really understood that if they hurt me or my DC's then they are hurting DH too.

My DH differs from yours because he does in some ways miss his parents but I think he misses the ones he used to know, not the ones who have shown their true colours in more recent years.

"whilst I know that all this with DH's parents has come about because of their hatred of me, they have never really understood that if they hurt me or my DC's then they are hurting DH too".

Mampam,

These people never take responsibility for their actions, they don't think they've done anything wrong in the first place. The reaction of such people too is to deny the extent of such problems in the first place and to place blame and responsibility on the person making the accusations of any ill treatment (e.g saying the child was "difficult").

I don't think this whole situation has come about solely because of their hatred towards you. Your Dh's parents are both damaged individuals anyway and would have acted the same regardless of whom your husband chose to marry.

Half hearted apologies are not worth a dime and tell you a hell of a lot about the person making them. Her comments are particularly telling; these people will not change.

I would still continue to keep these people at a vast distance both emotionally and physically from yourselves. They will project all their toxic crap onto the next generation as well.

So they haven´t had contact with you for 3yrs, and now a grandchild is on the way they want contact?

Stuff them I say, they should have thought about that, shouldn´t they?

If they can treat you and your husband like this, they don´t deserve imo to see their grandchild.

I am obviously a b!tch, but if my parents weren´t interested in me,why would they be interested in my child?

I could easily not see them.

My DH had a bad upbringing too and all he ever wanted was on occasions like xmas and birthdays to do the big family thing, it really upsets him that we cant do these things. I don't think he will ever get used to it, however there is no choice. My FIL is insanely jealous of me and it is killing him at the mo because he can't get to me to bitch. He hates the fact that MIL came and spent 2-3 days with us at christmas and he can't even come to the house.

It's his own fault as he a (I use the word evil because he really is) evil spiteful nasty bastard. Sorry for the expletives.

We (DH and I) discussed another baby last night (also another story) and he asked me about what we would do about FIL, I said that he would have restriced access to it same as DD. He didn't like it but it is tough, he (FIL) cannot be trusted.

It is too late now for the big forgiveness reunion thing, he made his bed IT IS OVER!!

I would really like to get a copy of this book, might have a look on amazon.

Mampam, I think your rules are fair and they need to understand that is how it is. This is your family unit now and it is, they are in no position to make demands.

Lighthouse, I ordered my copy from Play.com as suggested by Attilla. It was £7.49 with free P&P.

"It is too late now for the big forgiveness reunion thing, he made his bed IT IS OVER!!"
This is exactly how I feel about IL's but unfortunately I don't think DH shares the same view.

Diddl, you are right, I guess they are using the baby as some kind of reason to get in contact, but had there been no baby they wouldn't have bothered.

I hear what everyone is saying, that these people will never change, never say sorry and to keep well away. I totally agree but unfortunately it's not my decision it's DH's and I'm not sure he feels the same way. I don't know where I go from here. How can I bring up the subject and put it to DH without seeming like I'm trying to influence his decisions or make them for him??

Lighthouse, I think it would be a bloody cheek if they tried to make any demands, you're definitely right.

No you cant influence him and yes it is his decision, this was the case in my situation so my DH takes DD and makes special arrangments to see his dad, this usually happens once a week and DH goes to FIL. FIL doesn't come to the house and does not phone the landline, usually he phones DH mobile.

DH doesn't really like the restrictions I have had to put in place but it is working and he gets to see his dad.

I feel bit bad about it and sometimes feel like giving in but I really musn't.

This seems to be a good working soloution. Think you and you DH need to sit and have a chat about what you both think, let him have his say and then you have yours and see if you can come to some sort of joint soloution or compromise that works for you both.

Yes DH and I do need to have a chat, but I don't really know what to say to him. It's awkward with his state of mind being a little fragile at the moment.

I should inmagine all you can really do is support your husband in what he decides-and support him if/when it goes wrong.

If they admit that they only want contact because of the baby it doesn´t bode well, imo.

Mampam

I think the big mistake you made TBH is to institute any kind of contact at all with these poisonous people. Unfortunately your IL saw the tentative message about the baby as a 'way back in'. From my experience I've realised that the only way to deal with unrepentant, abusive people is to cut them off completely so that they can have no influence at all over your life. The black sheep syndrome with regard to extended family is deeply unfair but very common and I'm afraid your DH will just have to come to terms with this and NOT CARE what other people think, it is the only way for him to be free. You are never going to persuade other people (grandparents etc) around to your way of thinking if it doesn't suit them, most people are selfish and will take the easiest path of least resistance.

You and your children are your DH's family now. His parents are deeply unpleasant, controlling people and nothing he says or does will ever change that. They aren't going to have a change of heart. It is not uncommon for children of abusive parents not to recognise that they are abusive until they start making decisions for themselves (their parents seem ok when their offspring are younger, biddable and completely under their control because they are never challenged). It is time for your DH to face up to the idea that he doesn't have a nice, ideal family but that is NOT HIS FAULT. He has done nothing to deserve this treatment and is not responsible for it, some people are simply crap parents.

He does, however, have a loving wife and family whose life he is indirectly making a misery because he cannot come to terms with the fact that he hasn't got very nice parents. If he is not careful he will lose you as well - because all this will eventually become intolerable for you - and, you know what? His parents will still be as horrible to him even if he sacrifices everything else for them.

It is essential that your DH comes to terms with this so - if he cannot do it by himself - then you must scrape together the money somehow to get him to a private counsellor. He has already had a breakdown and impending fatherhood and the renewed contact with his parents will now be putting even further strain on him.

I feel so sorry for both of you, you have had it so rough and you don't deserve it, but the remedy lies in you DH and his ability to accept the facts of his life, come to terms with them, and accept that he has a great life with you and your children.

Take care and keep posting.

I agree with Celtic
I think the ILs have seen the card & message re baby as OPs husband wanting to reestablish contact & "all is forgiven".