I want to alk about my mum ...

[ItsGraceAgain]

I've been reading some horrifying threads in here about toxic parents. I'm so impressed by the strength & intelligence of the OPs, and the therapeutic brilliance that lurks behind some user names

I'm between therapists atm (got to start "training" a new one in Jan) and hoping you'll be kind enough to help me sort some Mum-related thoughts out?

oops, that's talk obviously
Essay warning! Here goes:-

I'm the eldest of four. Dad was a bully. I'm the scapegoat. Dad died ten years ago. I started therapy; discovered I had been seriously abused in almost every way (or possibly every way, I have few memories). I'm living down to my Scapegoat position by being the only family member with mental illness - also in that, ten years ago, my very successful career fell apart. I'm now poor, single & struggling. This is in my profile, btw.

My mum's personality is: sweet, lovely, always sees the positive, hasn't got a malicious bone in her body, etc. She's a bit nutty but not in a bad way. She loved dad and their marriage was fundamentally good, despite his lousy temper. Before I got therapied-up, she wouldn't even admit that he beat the shit out of her on a regular basis. She still manages to hold on to the dual beliefs that he was a good husband and was cruel to her and to me.

As a mother, she was neglectful especially towards me. She criticised dad's violence, but did nothing to protect us and taught me how to justify it (he's tired, worried, blah blah). She discussed their sex life with me, was extremely sexually jealous of me - still is, though she keeps her mouth shut now I've told her off in public for it! - and very controlling/manipulative. She has a highly individual belief system around diet. I was anorexic in my teens - the school noticed it in time.

She fits the Narcissistic Mother profile very well. I recently realised my ex had Asperger's and, when I told her about it, she said she thinks she is, too. I actually think she may be right - it looks a lot like narcissism - but, whichever, I'm failing to deal with myself here and need advice.

A few years ago I became homeless. I was failing to cope, and didn't know how to get help. Mum TRICKED me into coming to live with her, in a remote village a few miles from where I am now. I lived a peripheral life around her, until the mental health team here helped me to find a house in the town (huge sighs of relief all round). This is the second time a psychiatrist has intervened to get me away from her, so I suspect I am failing to see just how much harm she does me.

She is 80 years old, and now in a happy relationship with a much nicer man (yeah, you can find love again in your 70s!!) I want to avoid upsetting her final years, and am doing quite a good job of letting her play the mother she believes herself to be. Our lives are very enmeshed these days, though, and without regular psychological support I find it very demanding. I can't discuss my ishoos about her with my sibs, as I'm the only one doing the therapy. Help!!

I think I'm mainly looking for some detached observations. Even though I didn't spend Christmas with her, she's very much in my life right now. I'm slowly coming to think that, just maybe, the reason I'm taking so long to get a life back together is because of this. Any ideas?

hey grace, can you give examples of a practical nature, now we have the background. What, in day-to-day terms, is a problem for you. And what are your feelings that you find difficult to cope with?

off to see alvin and the chipmonks, but will check in later.

Hi Grace. You gave some really good advice on the "bad sister" thread I thought, is that how you deal with your mother?

This isn't exactly an observation but you say that your lives are very enmeshed - how does that actually look in life? What sort of things keep you in touch?

Hi ItsGraceAgain. What a post. My heart and thoughts go out to you.

I want to ask you a question: what do you want?

Not what do you want from us as respondents (not yet, anyway), but what do you want in life, for you? What do you want when it comes to your Mum? What do you want to be able to do, feel, think, so that you feel safe, centred, free from fear?

Your post is all about your mother - it speaks of the tremendous hold she had, and still has, over you. Where are you in all this? Where do you want to be?

And, yes, what do you want from those who respond? Support? Advice? Empathy? It's all there, I'm sure; but maybe it's time to step up and realise that it's your right to ask for any and all of these things from life. Your Mum might not be able to give them to you; but, with help, you can learn how to give them to yourself.

(And I wanted to add: your own contributions on other posts have been beautifully insightful and lyrical too. Now all you need to do is learn how to apply the same insight and sense of lyricism to your own life. Always the most difficult thing to do!)

Thanks, both

It's hard to explain - you know when you say people are their own worst enemy? That's me I find it hugely difficult to motivate myself - I have improved since moving out of Mum's, but am still doing well if I manage to tick 3 things off a day's to-do list - and that includes basics like cooking! I undercharge for freelance work, can't face chasing unpaids, don't ring my friends ... Essentially, I'm doing very little to enhance my own life. Fighting my sense of worthlessness feels like a full-time job mostly; I get really exasperated about that, as I used to be such a go-getter! (Mind you, I was always driven by that "not good enough" feeling ...)

AnAuntieNotAMum, cheers for the feedback! Yes, I do consciously let her do her thing and then back smoothly away when she becomes intrusive It's the single most useful skill I've learned through the experience. She rang last night to talk about some drama that happened in her village - she's never the cause of these dramas, just always in the centre of them: I was quite proud of my excited responses, followed by "must go!"

WNLB, your reply's brilliant. Thank you!
"What do you want to be able to do, feel, think, so that you feel safe, centred, free from fear?"

You're spot on, I still can't answer that properly! I'm going to consider it while I'm in the shower I haven't got around to yet ...

xx

Blimey, you lot act fast. Mumsnet should be bottled, we could sell it for a fortune!

Yes, I need to like myself and respect myself. Now I'm all washed & changed, I actually feel a bit better so I should remember that little things can make a big difference

I need to find ways to believe I'm good enough - "good enough" doesn't exist in my family - and now I'm thinking I could do worse than go back to sticking affirmations up on the walls. Actually, since I haven't finished decorating, I could PAINT them on the walls

I've got to stop thinking of myself as Mum's problem. Intellectually I don't think it, but it's ingrained in my sorry messed-up head. Affirmations again.

I need a LOT more purpose. I'm using helping other people with their problems, online, as a way to feel useful - and it works - but it's about time I got a few ambitions together for real.

I can't stop her popping round unannounced - I've tried - but I can continue 'managing' her and that's good enough (hey, I said it!)

I'm going to come back to this, and really welcome any more thoughts. Just for now - THANK YOU!!!

As for getting little done. I'd say, try not to punish yourself for it, accept yourself and don't concentrate on what you haven't got done but rather on what you have?

Sounds like you are handling your mother well now. I was wondering, is it not so much that what your Mum actually does now damages you but rather that, being in touch with her is a constant reminder of the Mum you don't and never had? Perhaps there is a constant reminder that she didn't nurture and protect you in a way that we would wish our mother to do?

I think you have to stop blaming your mum and dad for what has happened. You are now an adult and need to take charge of your own life.

You need to move on and set yourself goals just like anyone else.

Most familes are dysfunctional to a degree. Surely if youjust accept that your mum is not perfect but did the best she could- as we all do as mums- you can get on with your own life andnot over-analyse it all so much?

cross post there. I think the affirmations sound like a good idea. I'd go for the sticky notes rather than painting them on the walls though, then you won't have to paint them over when you don't need them anymore :-)

Well, IGA, it's a matter of "you spot it, you got it". Helping others online does enable one to feel incredibly useful; but unless you help yourself in equal measure, then what you're trying to do is help yourself through others. They get all the benefit. You, not so much. Well, not the direct benefit. Rather, you get to feel, as you say, useful. And you have such good advice to give! Start lavishing it on yourself.

Therapy, as you know, can be so effective because it gives you a place to be able to get some sorely needed perspective in your life - to bring patterns that would otherwise remain unconscious to the surface. I hope your auditions bear good fruit!

Two more things:

1. I believe that not knowing what you want is absolutely normal. After all, you had to spend all your time trying to work out what your parents wanted so that you could either a) placate and please them, or b) avoid them. I have always admired people who know what they want; who are so clear about their desires; and who knew them from the start. Only now, in my late-30s, am I starting to be able to answer that question for myself with any clarity and certainty. But it's great: I'm coming to my small, tentative conclusions by myself, without being driven by unconscious fears, and without needing validation. Yay!

1. Lack of motivation? Normal! Every ounce of your energy right now is being put into survival. It runs in the background and it is draining in the extreme ... much like a virus scan running in the background on your computer will hamper speed and performance and experience. Things start to feel lighter as you, by degrees, leave your past behind and you stop bringing it into the present.

Yes, this is all about taking responsibility. But that doesn't mean that you do it alone. You've been operating alone much of your life. Keep asking for help when you need a partner along the way ... and keep reminding yourself that that is your right. You keep getting on with the business of getting your life back on track, and life will bring you opportunities to share the burden.

Hugs!

Grace , my mum is normal and lovely so have no experience but just read your post and looked at your profile and wanted to say you seem like a wee smasher!

Are you looking for permission to hate / get angry with your mum for the past but don't feel you can as you are essentially a nice person and she is now a frail, albeit chipper old lady?

Tell us more about how she tricked you into living with her

ITsGraceAgain - I've read some of your posts elsewhere and really wonder if I can offer anything you don't already know!
So I'll offer a bit of conversation instead.

Years ago, one of my friends read "GodelEscherBach" and told me about the idea that for every system, there is an anti-system - in fact, it's the way of system's to produce their anti-system. An imaginative correlative of that was of a record-player (guess my age!) playing a record that makes it fall apart.

I did think that kind of described my relationship with my mother!

The rubbish thing I have noticed is that there is not a lot I can do to "rationalise" my way out of the way we relate to one another. In fact, I have found that the only thing that works is for me to behave in completely un-me ways when I'm with her. So I "manage" the times when we're together, rather than having a really great time. It's a real shame, actually. I could be more explicit, but it's a bit of a downer, tbh.

On the plus side, the way she and my dcs knit together is fine. Which is probably the only reason we have a fairly frequent contact.

That's quite different from you situation. I think without the dc, I'd have probably followed the advice you gave another poster, and gone for much-reduced contact. It really is stressful behaving in the ways I have to behave in order to "manage" her. It's quite specific, she has death and vulnerability issues ... . Sigh.

Lol @ your Mum's "death & vulnerability issues", hbfac, I've never put it that succinctly! Mine carries suicide pills in her handbag and is terrified of someone breaking into her back garden ... to steal the rusty tools, I can only suppose.

Yeah, you're right that it can't be "rationalised" - when you're dealing with an irrational person, there's no point is there? It took me ages to realise that the methods I'd been taught to deal with my psycho boss would also work with my mother

That boss was so reminiscent of my dad - it's true we keep on playing the same script until we notice it! Could be a result of being a 'broken record', heh.

pp, somebody has to point out that, when you grew up in a warped reality, that's all you know. You can't just get on with being normal coz you have no way of knowing what normal is! And - er, that's what therapy's for.

jasper - yes, I am in a way. I felt so disloyal writing my post, I deleted it three times. When I wrote that 2 psychiatrists had intervened, it was the first time I'd acknowledged what they must have seen happening between us - and found serious enough to call in outside help. I have a gentle hope that THIS thread, THIS new year's eve, is the one where I manage to face up to the unthinkable (I hate my lovely mother, aarghhh!)

Yes, proximity is keeping the problem in my face. Whenever she does something "lovely" for me, I'm swamped by inner conflict. I get why hbfac says she feels fake around her mum - it's kind of inevitable, though, as the only alternative would be to sink back into sullen teenager mode

Thanks for the compliment!

WNLB, your virus scan similie made me laff out loud! It's TRUE, isn't it? No wonder it all seems to tiring!! Thank god for a chance to straighten things out a bit - and for this forum. You're being fantastic therapists

Auntie, I suppose it might be embarrassing if Man Of My (New) Dreams knocked on the door and the first thing he saw was "I'm OK, you know!" painted in wobbly emulsion on the stairs ...

Hurray. The sun just went over the yard arm. Self-medication ahoy!

Grace xx

Yay! Happy for you!!!

I wanted to answer Jasper's Q about how I ended up living with mother, as it might be informative for Daily Mail readers with a thing about benefit cheats. I was renting a flat on housing benefit. Somebody reported me for moonlighting on benefits - I wasn't, I was getting Working Tax Credit and declaring my earnings.

My benefits were stopped for 2 months pending an investigation. My landlord issued an eviction notice. Mum offered to lend me the missing rent, but said she wanted me to spend a few days with her first. I told the landlords Mum was going to pay the missing rent; they agreed to wait another 10 days. Mum then informed me she wasn't going to lend me the rent after all. On day 10, my neighbour phoned to tell me the landlords had changed the locks.

We have quite an intelligent benefits system these days - it's all geared up to encourage claimants to work. Not everybody who works & claims is a thief, despite what it says on those TV adverts.

Dittany, I hadn't seen that before. I'm going to read it - thank you.

Well, the "come & visit while I backtrack on my promise to let you stay in your flat" thing was a dramatic example - it is still generally accepted that she very kindly invited me to live with her, as I was mentally ill.

She gives me clothes she doesn't want - which is nice because my old clothes don't fit, after having been made to eat food swimming in oil whilst living at her house. I'm currently wearing a sweater that fits me but is too tight for her (as her bust is bigger than mine) - and a pair of jeans I've had to take in, about 2" each side. She gave me the jeans because they're too big for her, but will fit me perfectly.

This tells you [a] what she sees, when she looks at the two of us, is a slim & busty her next to a lardy, egg-shaped me! [b] There is no reasoning [sigh]

Grace, in a way, it's not a surprise that looking after your mental state is a full time job. Your brain was set up that way, having developed in a situation of abuse. Perhaps it's putting too much pressure of yourself to expect yourself to feel "normal" (whatever that might be) or happy or free from your past. Perhaps it's more realistic to accept your sadness and get into the habit of pushing yourself through the times when you just feel like shit.

Grace i really don't know what to say to you...but i just wanted to post and show some support to you.

I have a father who suffers from mental health problems and i know that he finds dealing with normal day-to-day issues a challange, so i can't imagine how you are coping with your mother.

I sincerely hope that you are able to work this out for the best (for you and only you).

Hugs xx

Grace, there are a few things you can do in everyday life to assert your boundaries with her. Popping over unannounced keep your door locked and install some way of seeing who is there when someone knocks. Just don't open the door for her. Do you have any way of identifying phone calls before you pick up the phone? As for the gifts of clothes either say No thanks, mum when she offers, or put them in a charity bag and give them away. Don't bring them home or let them spend more than one night in your house. Don't wear them.

The second hand castoffs thing is an indication of attitude, and it is also a symbol of being enmeshed. You are wearing clothes that are someone else's taste, someone else's size -- you didn't choose them or buy them, someone just randomly gave them to you because they were of no value to her. Only have around you in your house and on your body things and clothes that are of value to you. Even if that means wearing the same pair of jeans and shirt every day. Make a clean sweep of your house and put in bin bags or charity bags anything she has given you to wear.

You seem in your posts to have clearly identified the issues that keep you from making a break with your mother. Guilt is such a strong binding force. But boundaries are very important. Developing good physical boundaries can help develop mental and emotional fences too ('good fences make good neighbours').

Your mother has done a brilliant job of wrapping herself in cotton wool over the years, and wrt you, she has actually made your father's abuse of you twice as hard to bear. The dynamic that operated while you were young is still intact -- you are still the black sheep of the family and your mother is still doing her self delusion thing, fooling herself and maybe everyone else too into thinking she is taking good care of helpless you. Start with little things, don't overlook the small details, and fight your way gradually out of the enmeshment. Don't ever believe there's such a thing as a free lunch where your mother is concerned. Always ask yourself when some offer comes up "What's in this for her? What's in this for me?"

Grace, I'm also coming to terms with the fact that the 'normality' of my life just hasn't been normal at all. It's quite a shock isn't it? When my ex was diagnosed with Aspergers (I'd been living with him for over 30 years and had adjusted to an Aspie world), I realised that my dad probably has it too and my mother spent all her time struggling to cope with his 'ways', post natal psychosis and the death of a child. Not much of her left to 'do' mothering.

I have decided now that I'm starting a new life that I am going to nurture myself as this is what has been missing from my life all along. It's taken a little while to work out what it is I need, but basically this -

I need to establish personal boundaries, acknowledge and validate my feelings, listen to my body, respond to my physical, emotional and spiritual needs, deal with everything a little at a time in manageable pieces and if it feels wrong - don't do it.

I'm adding to my nurturing list all the time as it occurs to me - but I'm not hurrying anything, I have no social life or interests at the moment but I know when I feel the need for these I'll be making progress. I've tried counselling and tbh didn't really find that it helped - I think you have to be receptive to it and at the moment I just need to be told what to do sometimes - I find MN a wonderful source of support and information to come to terms with things which have never even occurred to me to have been relevant (my own mothering skills for example).

I'm not optimistic that I'll ever be able to have a 'normal' relationship with someone given all the emotional baggage I'm lugging around, but you never know.

I think you need to distance yourself from your mother, if not physically, certainly emotionally. Treat her as a relative perhaps but not your mum iykwim?

Sorry for the length of this, hope there might be something in this 'essay' that may help.

Wow - great advice mathanxiety.

Thank you. I'm reading Alice Miller and being slapped with a metaphorical wet flannel every few minutes

Pathetically, I can't imagine throwing out everything she gave me! I understand the logic of what you say, Math, and am going to get my head round it. She wants us to start swimming together after the hols. I want to swim (it will be the same, local, pool) but I think I'm going to have to tell her a simple No about going together. I can't believe I'm middle-aged and still frightened of upsetting my mum!

I really think it's thanks to other brave people, who've posted here, that I'm even contemplating it now. I'm scared of alienating what remains of my family - but that might not happen. And, truth be told, they're not that big a part of my life anyway.

You know what, she really is crazy isn't she?! No wonder Dad ended up on the evil side (no, he shouldn't have done - but at least he knew he was screwed up).

God, it's the New Year Of Truth here!! Good thing I've got TOTP (followed by Jonny Depp), enough red wine and some nice food to take the edge off

hbfac, how do you cope with your mum & DCs? One of my SILs practically banned mine from spending time with her kids; my DSis simply repeats the family pattern. I can't imagine how you'd find the sane ground, never mind walk it on a regular basis.