Still feel bitter about friend's new relationship

[itchyandscratchy]

Dh has a friend he's had since school. When I met dh I met with his friend's partner and we all got on brilliantly and they were part of our big crowd of mates. They got married the year before me and dh and were hopeful for dcs. They moved abroad for his job and she gave up a very successful career to go with him and concentrate on having a family.

While the rest of us went on to have dcs they had a couple of very traumatic mcs, one of which was ectopic and resulted in her having an ovary removed and the other a missed mc discovered at the 12 week scan.

They were told it would be very unlikely they would conceive naturally as her age was against her too. They then decided they might then go for ivf within the next year. After the 2nd mc they came to see us and it became very plain that she was grieving terribly while he, on the other hand, looked rejuvenated, relaxed and happy. I suspected that he was having an affair and 2 months later I was proved right.

The woman he was seeing worked with him and had made a beeline for him. She even befriended his wife to try to get to know him better. She knew about the mcs too.

They split up after he left her for this woman. Our friend (the wife) was devastated. It has taken her 4 years to pick herself up, move back and build up a life for herself. She has met a lovely new man but is still so hurt that she keeps him at a slight distance. He is devoted to her and is willing to wait for her to get over her marriage. It's too late for her to have children of her own now.

Some other mutual friends have kept in touch with the husband and his new gf, have met her when they visited (they still live abroad) and he was very keen for us to meet her but we didn't want to initially. Dh eventually made the move and met up with them on nights out but I wasn't interested. We still see the ex-wife quite often and we're all very close. We were invited on another night out this week with dh's friend and his gf but I didn't want to. Other mutual friends are starting to see me as unreasonable now as I won't go on a 'jolly night out' but I don't really give a monkeys. However, I know the chap was keen to see our dcs again and always remembers them at christmas so I said they could both come round for a coffee the other day. I thought there was less likelihood of me getting drunk and having a face on me if this happened.

So I met her and they were both obviously delighted that some progress had seemingly been made. The bloke asked me to consider going out with them the next time it's arranged and they both invited us to stay with them abroad and to bring the dcs. They were both very touched that I'd invited them round and seem keen to move it all on further. But as I suspected, I feel very bitter. I know really it's none of my business really, but I know just how very hard it's been for the ex-wife and I feel angry that she's now lost her chance to be a mum.

They obviously love one another and are happy but I can't help thinking at what cost their happiness has been. It would be easier if our friend (the ex-w) had recovered but I don't think she ever will really. Everytime I looked at them the other day I kept thinking of the gf asking the ex-w about her mcs and her expressing great sympathy, whilst knowing at the same time she was shagging this poor woman's husband.

AIBU? (Didn't want to post it there though!) Does it ever get any easier all round?

SOmething the OP might also like to consider is that she probably only has the XW's version of how the affair happened (given that she's refused to have anything to do with the H since the relationship ended). And this visoun of the new GF cackling fiendishly as she laid her plans to 'steal' the H may be a bit exaggerated. People who have been dumped are very rarely unbiased about what happened.
Again, though - it was four years ago and it didn;t happen to you. Move on.

I now that the OP's post said she was bitter but I genuinely don't think she comes across as bitter or any of the other things she has been accused of. She is not wanting to embark upon some vendetta against this woman - she simply wants to exert her right not to play along with their attempts to smooth everything over. No-one knows whether the original group dynamic would even have existed if this woman had been his wife all along.

They got together in less than ideal circumstances and yes, no one knows the full ins and outs and its their lives etc and 4 years is a long time but they behaved badly and any fall out from that is the price they have to pay. That the husband is the one who betrayed his wife goes without saying but the OW behaved in the most reprehensible manner and why should you be obliged to pretend she is someone you want to spend time with for the convenience of their social outings? You saw the hurt they caused - they have clearly chosen to wipe it from history.

OP You come across as a wonderfully compassionate and loyal friend and that, for me, is where your issue here stems from, not bitterness or being judgemental or whatever.

hbfac on Wed 30-Dec-09 19:14:18

That is one of the most sensible, balanced posts I've seen for ages.

YANBU - I think you're right to be loyal to your friend. I would be

It also says something about this couple that they are willing to ride roughshod over the OP's feelings in order to try to recreate the previous group dynamic. The OW has some nerve - in her shoes I would accept that the OP didn't want to be my jolly friend and move on, not keep pushing at it -she needs to get over that! But no, if someone doesn't play along its a fly in the ointment and reminds them of what they did.

They don't have the right to demand that from you. You do have the right to refuse it.

Hi, all.

itchyandscratchy, you seem to understand that your female friend knows people will see her ex and his new partner, and you can also see that the new couple are happy. But you can't bring yourself to be friends with them again. I hope I'm reading this correctly?

I say (in conjunction with some other posters): why should you be more friendly? They may be terribly nice now that they are happy have got what they wanted, but to be honest, the image of the husband looking "rejuvenated, relaxed and happy" while his wife was in distress after the miscarriages shows a great lack of sensitivity, to say the least. It also seems to show what he is capable of "if the chips are down" (sorry for the cliche). The new woman has also shown what she is capable of. That is: they couldn't deny themselves enough to end things decently before beginning their affair. I wouldn't really entrust my warm, friendly feelings to such people to the extent of going on holiday to visit them, etc. I just couldn't.

Your female friend's ability to trust, and her feelings about children are a bit of a separate issue, though. You ought to untie them so you can address each of them confidently (i.e. not hold back from the new couple because of her, but because of your own feelings for them; and not refuse to see the new couple for coffee because coffee would be a "betrayal" of your friend).

I should declare an interest here: my university ex-bf cheated on me while I was away on a sandwich year. Because many of my friends were still there, I had no letters at all in the first term, as they were unable to lie or omit they knew what was happening. As well as being isolated, I was also having a hard time because of lack of light and other nonsense (it was mid-90s Russia, after all...). And he was a manipulative ahole afterwards. However, some of our friends are still friends with him, and I realised later how much I admired their sense of loyalty to a friend even when he was wrong, and also realised that this demonstration by the friends showed me why I couldn't and shouldn't ask people to choose (I never did ask). I was* hurt that some people continued seeing him, but realised that not being able to demand that people choose kept me from acting bitterly and selfishly. My friends saved me from that, in a way, just as our forgiveness and discipline save our children from the consequences of their most horrible words, until they can restrain themselves.

It seems as though you are like the friends who dropped my ex because they did not like him as a person afterwards, and your DH is like the people who stayed friends with my ex, though thinking he was wrong. Both reactions are equally valid and just. Your DH would be as unreasonable, to demand you palled up with everyone again, as you would be to demand he called them to account and/or dropped them.

Sorry for the long post, but thought declaring this interest was the right way to go to explain.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts, experiences and comments. There really isn't any clear black and white in situations like these: just greys.

Just to make things a bit clearer, maybe: my dh was just as upset as anyone when this all happened, NYE has brought it all back as we were staying with the couple and dh realised at this time that I was right about the affair as he'd caught his friend texting the OW from one side of the room while we all saw the new year in at the other . When this all came out and they split up, dh felt that he couldn't support his friend straight away and it was some time before they resumed their friendship. Dh is very fond of the ex-w and felt awful for her. Dh is completely supportive of my feelings though and says that although he likes the OW 'well enough', he can't ever see us all being a jolly foursome again as it just isn't the same. These are dh's feelings, separate to mine.

I do know that the h wouldn't have had an affair if he'd been happy and he lacked the courage to end it earlier, which he obviously thought was better at the time, but of course it wasn't, as it gave his ex-w hope that things would improve. I really don't like the thought of the OW trying to befriend her when she was grieving as there was no need for this. As the OW, I'd have thought it would have been more humane to keep well into the background. And of course, I do equally blame the H: he chose to carry this on while his W was at her most vulnerable instead of doing the decent thing and asking the OW to wait a decent amount of time. They have obviously lasted all this time so they must have something significant between them: therefore they could have waited for one another until the marriage was over?

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier with the word 'civil'. I can be civil towards her now, which I didn't always think I could, so progress has been made. Bitterness is destructive and I should let go of it; I recognise that. But to be fair, it's not constantly eating away at me; we rarely have contact with the new couple: dh and he text each other about football every few weeks and he sometimes rings dh when he's in the country on business. This wouldn't even be an issue if they hadn't invited us to their house and he hadn't tried to persuade me to go out with them - it just got on my norks that he was being so eager to pick up where we all left off over 4 years ago.

Itchy- what you have written clears some things up, BUT
does it never cross your mid that no one really knows what goes on in another's marriage or affair? You see it only from the outside, and only hear what they choose to tell you. Maybe the OW was genuine when she befriended the ex? It is not impossible you know.

You come over as being very judgemental. Surely you should be pleased that at least your DH's friend is now happy? Okay, he didn't end his marriage first, but would it have been any better if he had? Would the pain have been less? Maybe not.

You seem to want people to live by your rules, ending relationships and starting others according to your views-as they are the ones you can cope with- but life's not like that- it is messy and people are flawed.

I can understand how you feel for your friend, but you'd be a bigger person if you could accept that people do things that are not always what you consider "right or fair" and try to move on, Otherwise you are carrying someoen else's pain- and for what? A sense of righteousness? And make the OW welcome- you might even get to like her!

Sometimes you see a side if someone you don't like. Sometimes it's enough to make you not want to be bothered seeing that person again.

In your situation I'd use the time others were out socialising to spend a nice quiet night in with a movie. II don't see why it's an issue if you don't go. You're entitled to spend your free time as you wish. If others choose to make an issue of you not going then i'd just refuse to discuss it really. You're not telling anyone else how to spend their time, why should others dictate to you?

"The best revenge is to live well" - not sure who said that but that's the main thing that I was thinking, reading your post. Energy and attention needs to be directed towards supporting your friend to focus now on her own happiness in the present, not grieving for the past.

n a way, how you deal with the ex-husband and OW matters much less than how your friend - supported by good people like you around her - focuses now on going for what she wants. Could she consider becoming a mum on her own, for example, regardless of what happens with the new boyfriend? Plenty of woman nowadays celebrate having more choices like this and save up, go abroad to adopt, use a surrogate, donor conception, try IVF etc etc, if they really, really want children (I'm a choice mum myself)....or if she's really let go of that dream to become a mum, what else now can she concentrate on in life that makes her feel happy and content again.

What has she tried to help her to lay to rest the past ghosts and let go of the bitterness, which will only destroy her and leave her less energy available to find happiness. Yes of course it's completely understandable for her to feel full of angst and grief, still - and could she also now begin to put a lot more energy into enhancing her life, with a kind of attitude of, "No time even to think about the ex because my life is so fullfilled and enriched".

What I'm getting at is that whilst I also agree with many that you're being a brilliant friend to sustain your loyalty towards her and it's also understandable that you find it hard to embrace the ex-husband and his OW - wouldn't it be brilliant if it were more a case of, "Sorry, I can't anyway come out with you because 'A' (your friend) and I are busy today doing xyz " - ie a life enhancing thing, whatever that might be.

So IMO, it's less a case of how you handle the new couple and more a case of how you continue to support your friend to find a happy new life - whether pursuing motherhood, still - or something else. Of course this is not your responsibility at all - just an act of kindness and loyalty. I think your friend needs to spend more time now focusing on living well and the whole new couple thing could then be marginal to her life and happiness and in some ways to yours too.

Not sure if I'm explaining this clearly enough - just trying to re-direct attention from the unchangeable past to the possibility of a better present and the potential future.

Sometimes people do things that mean we can no longer be friends with them, not because it affects us but because it changes how we view them and we don't want to be friends with the 'new' them.

You were good friends as a foursome, things change, you can be civil however there is no reason why you should feel guilty for not wanting to carry on the foursome with his new gf.

A friend of my husbands left his partner, running off with the girlfriend of one of his best mates. It has changed how I see him, I am thankfull he is not a friend he sees often.

I really don't think itchy comes across as judgemental at all

I couldn't be friends with either of the H or the OW.

I don't think you are being unreasonable, bitter or any of the epithets that have been thrown at you. I think you are a compassionate friend. As for the expectation that someone will have got over this in 4 years, the naivety and lack of compassion or empathy astonishes me.

No, you don't know what their marriage was like, but this was horrible behaviour by anyone's standards. These two kicked this woman when she was down. It is probably her incomprehension (and yours to an extent) that two people can do this to another that is still causing pain. You or she cannot empathise with this behaviour at all - you would not do the same to another person.

In your shoes, I would have no problem at all admitting that you do not want a friendship with anyone who can behave like this. I would nail my colours to the mast and wouldn't worry in the least what other people think. In my view, far too many people sit on the fence and fail to condemn others' behaviour, for fear of appearing judgemental. Being judgemental is fine, actually, if it makes people realise there will be consequences (i.e. lost friendships).

It is unlikely given your values that you will ever have common ground with either the OW or the friend - their actions are alien to you. Civil is all you can hope for, especially given the friendship they have with your DH. It's good that you and your DH agree on this too - it would be awful if it drove a wedge between you. I suspect other people actually admire your integrity incidentally - I certainly do.

It was 4 years ago?

Cultivate a friendship with the new woman if you like her.
If you don't "click" there is no issue. Most of us have plenty of friends and don't need new ones.

If you do get on well don't put up barriers because she "stole" your mate's husband (she didn't)

I can see where you're coming from. Brad Pitt's pissing around probably cost Jennifer Aniston her chance to have her own child. I know that's the sleb world, but I always felt that at that point in your life, wasting time with somebody who won't go the whole journey with you is very sad.
i'm not making much sense. but I hear you. If that were my friend, i'd be sad for her too.. and it'd be hard not to direct some of my feelings that life was unjust at the perky new couple with years of fertility ahead of them. pointless maybe, but human.

itchy I totally get where you are coming from.

Something similar happened to some friends of ours, again the man was primarily DH's friend. He was having an affair for a year behind his wife's back, she found out when the OW rang her. It was heartbreaking what he put his wife through. I found what he did despicable for many reasons and to this day find it hard to be the same with him when he visits DH.

Am I being self righteous? Well maybe but to me he wasn't the same man I considered a friend, my whole perception of him changed iyswim. He had the morals of an alley cat over the whole thing, and I truly never expected that kind of behaviour from him.

So scratchy, if I was in your shoes I would feel the same. I wouldn't want to even try to befriend the OW. But perhaps for the sake of your DH you can be civil and polite with her. Things will not be the same in your group of friends, he changed that dynamic when he had the affair and it would be silly to think the OW could just take the place of his exW and everything be the same.

YANBU - I would feel exactly the same.

They clearly know they didn't behave very well when they got together and are trying to get people 'on side' so to speak so as to make themselves feel better.
It is the hidden cost of marriage breakdown, broken friendships, and there is no rule that says you have to accept the new status quo if you don't want to.

If you feel that because of someone's past behaviour you are never going to be able to like them, then surely the right thing to do is to not make them think you are going to be friends.

Therefore if you feel this way you should not socialise with them; I think you are not BU at all.

A dear friend of mine was virtually destroyed by her H's behaviour, affair, and his callous ending of their long marriage. I now see the H and his new wife quite a lot. I am polite, friendly even, but in the unlikely event that I was asked to socialise with them I would make my excuses. Why? Well, out of solidarity with my friend even though she has moved on and is quite happy. Because if there was the remotest chance that she would be upset by me being in contact with them, I would feel very bad indeed. Plus I don't want to see them. I don't like them. Well I don't like him as it is he who behaved so badly. Why should I pretend to like the guy when I think he is scum? Why should the OP?

Life's too short to waste time pretending to like people you despise.

Your DH is asking you to befriend the woman his friend is with, unfortunately, the woman his friend is with treated YOUR friend badly, and so did your DH's friend.

I would tell your DH that if he wants to be friends witht he bloke, fine, but you are not prepared to befriend someone who is a hypocrite and you also don't want to condone the bloke's behaviour.

They can be DH's friends.

My DH has friends that he does war games with...they are not my friends, he goes out with them by himself.

It is not possible to always like the partner of your partner's friend, and in this case, impossible.

And the four years thing?

Time is not a reason for over looking your feelings...some things do not become "right" just because they happened in the past.

If you can't stand the woman you can't stand her and that is that.

Think of it this way. If it wasn't for the affair, they would have split up anyway.

Wouldn't you want to be friends with the new girlfriend if the affair didn't happen?

I'd probably keep a step back from them & not be best buddies but I would still socialise for the sake of my husband.

I don't think YABU and I admire how you've stuck to your principles. It's a really difficult situation and I think you've been very loyal.

From another viewpoint, XH's family have been loyal to me after his affair, but I wouldn't expect them to spend years blanking the OW - both of them were responsible and time does change things. People behave incredibly badly when they're in the middle of affairs but you do need to move on eventually.

Having said that, I know that very few of my friends would be likely to talk to the OW involved in my situation.

I don't think you are unreasonable to be judgmental and I think a couple of other posters here are projecting a lot more!
I can really understand your loyalty to your friend. Personally, it would alter my opinion of the ex-husband and I wouldn't be keen to be friendly with him any more. You are not family members so I don't see that you have any obligations. The ex husband has to accept that his behaviour has had consequences and one of them may be the loss of certain friendships.

Hmmm.

Some nasty comments have been thrown at itchy here without justification.

She is not obliged to be friends with these people, just because her H is, end of.

TBH if someone had caused a great deal of hurt to a good friend of mine, I wouldn't feel like palling up either. Not to say I'd be planning vendettas or owt and would probably civil if we met but I certainly wouldn't go out my way to make friends.