Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I need some support - NPD manipulation and how to handle it

48 replies

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 10:00

Long story briefly - NPD mother (I know, I know, an over-used term but trust me - she fits to tee). Lots of emotional abuse from the ages 12-18, finally left home and went to university, got a career, had lots of counselling, got married and now have a happy life.

Have tried to involve her in our lives (for the sake of our children) but actually this hasn't worked out because she continues to manipulate, attention seek, spread malicious gossip etc. I finally went "no contact" last xmas though have continued (against my better judgement I suppose) to send cards.

Family have been turned against me through spreading of malicious gossip and lies over the years. I now have no contact with any of my family at all, which can feel very lonely (and very unfair).

I have no dad.

I have a much younger sister (she's 21). She still lives with my mother. I was very, very close to her when she was a child and was worried my mother would treat her as she's treated me over the years but in fact my sister is nothing like me in any way (ie has never stood up for herself or shown any desire to break free). She turns out to be depressingly like my mother and, I suppose, not somebody I'd ever be friends with if we weren't related.

My mother holds on tight to my sister. My mother has tried hard to find a man over the years but her relationships never last (because they can't stand being controlled) so in the end my sister continues to be my mum's companion. I know she'd drop her like a stone if the right man ever came along but she's getting older now and it seems increasingly unlikely. So my sister has never leanred to drive or cook or use the washing machine. My mother drives her to work every day, disses her friends, discourages her relationships.

I haven't had contact with my mum for a year. I didn't originally intend to go "no contact" but was becoming increasingly upset with her behaviour at the end of last year (she actually started making stories up and inventing conversations) that I just couldn't take any more.

When I didn't see her for a few weeks in January this year, I began to receive quite nasty messages from my sister via Facebook accusing me of being a bad daughter. Of course, my sister knows and understands nothing of what I've been through, though I did try to tell her once.

She begins her messages "I know I'm in the right". She's fifteen years younger than me (though acts like a 14 year old most of the time) so obviously, it sort of gets my back up to recieve messages like this and the more she sent me messages, the less likely I was to go and see them. I was pregnant until June and really didn't need the stress.

Of course, the words in the message were my mothers. Like many NPD types, she lines other people up to fire her gun. She plays them like a fiddle and they have no idea they've been played.

After a year of no contact, I still have no desire to see my mother though recently I've contacted a counsellor because I need some support with the process I'm going through. I guess it's like grief.

Anyway, getting to the point (finally!) it was my birthday recently and I received a parcel from my mother which contained a birthday card from her and an xmas card for my husband and I but nothing from my sister. ALso in the parcel were xmas presents for the children and xmas cards for the children but nothing for my husband and I from my sister. My mother is (predictably) "doing the right thing" by sending cards and presents, while my sister is "making a point" by sending things for the children but totally ignoring me and my husband.

I find this totally unacceptable. It's as though I've removed myself from her but she's still getting to me (and more importantly, my family) by lining my sister up to fire the gun. My sister is being played and doesn't realise. However you look at it, it's totally unacceptable to send cards and presents to children in a house where you ignore the parents.

My mother's response would be "I've done nothing wrong. Your sister ignored your birthday but that's up to her, she makes her own decisions".

I am beginning to realise that what I really need isn't expensive counsellign, it's support from my husband. He fully understands the situation and agrees with my assessment but in the past he's never wanted to get involved for fear of saying or doing the wrong thing.

I'm just on here to get some advice from you guys on how to proceed with this. I would like my husband to stand up for me (we've been together for 20 years and he's never stood up and said anything) but don't know how to tell him this. I think it's time we approached this as a family rather than me coping with it alone all the time.

When I talk to him about it, he is quite dismissive. I guess he's heard it all before. When I spoke to him about my sister last night, he just said that she's being played by my mother and "that's her problem". Actually I think it's problem that's affecting me and affecting my family and I think we need to approach it jointly.

What do you guys think?

OP posts:
NotQuiteCockney · 21/12/2009 10:43

I don't think expecting your husband to fix this is fair. I do think professional counselling or therapy is the way forward here, sorry.

Your sister and mother both sound pretty broken. Blaming your sister isn't helpful.

TheArmadillo · 21/12/2009 11:13

My sis still lives at home (though a couple of years older than yours) and I have no contact with my parents atm. Which as a result seems to mean no contact with sis (although I haven't tried as have never had much of a relationship with her).

My mum is incrediably controlling as well.

I find it difficult with my sis as we don't get on at all when we do see each other but this is because of our upbringing. However I have taken the decision that she knows where I am if she wants to contact me in the future. I switch between hating her (unreasonably I know) and wanting to step in and rescue her - but I cannot do this as it is her decision. I can't force her to do anything regardless of whether I think it is right or not. My sis also suffers badly from depression as a result of this (imo) but would never get help because of my mum (who thinks it's only for weak people and also would never accept it seeing it as a failure of her parenting).

With your sis she is a) still young and b) still living under your mother's roof and under her control. Until she takes the decision to see your mother as you see her then you are unlikely to have a relationship with her. This could happen in the next couple of months or it could never happen.

I can see your husband's view tbh - there is little you can do and trying to get involved and sort it out is unlikely to come to anything. BUt what it is going to do is bring you further into contact with your mum and this would not be good for you.

I think partners often do have to stay out of it. They cannot handle the situation for you and all they can do is let you come to terms with it yourself.

I think you need to just make sure your sis can contact you in future if needs be.

coldtits · 21/12/2009 11:17

I don't agree with you about the presents. One person chose to get you a present and one person chose not to. You're being hypersensitive. I agree with your husband - there's nothing to 'approach'. It's not all about you.

MarineIguana · 21/12/2009 11:31

Actually, though the situation is awful and your mum sounds like a nightmare, I think you're focusing on this one problem (your sister not sending you and DH presents) when it's not the main issue. Your sister is an overgrown child who's been kept immature by your mum, and I wouldn't read anything much into what she does or doesn't do. I certainly didn't expect anything at all from my youngest sister at that age (similar situation in some ways though much less extreme).

FWIW I don't think it's unacceptable to send presents to the DC and not the parents - happens to us all the time and I have to say I prefer it.

I'd focus on the counselling for you and try to sort out your own feelings. I know what you mean about your DH - the family issues/individuals that really get to me my DP waves away as "a bit annoying" - although he can see that I get upset, I don't think he sees it as something for "us as a family" to deal with.

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 11:43

I think there's some misunderstanding about the situation with the presents.

I'm not bothered that she doesn't send me cards and presents. It would be easier if they just didn't send any for anyone. I'm 37 years old and long past bothering about who gets what.

But sending cards for the children and ignoring me is a deliberate attempt to "make a point". It's done to hurt. It's what attention-seeking types do, it's how they operate.

I do, of course, give the presents to the children.

I honestly think my mother and sister think they can have a relationship with my children without having a relationship with me. Perhaps they are waiting for my children to grow up and develop individual relationships with them, which don't include me. TBH my mother is so dangerous that this would risk their mental health.

This is why I wish my husband would be more pratical support. It affects our children and whenever I try to tackle the situation with my mother, it looks as though I'm a lone voice even though I know he agrees. So I'm a lone voice and my mum and sister present a united front.

They are broken, yes. My mother is broken and tries to break everyone else, unfortunately. My sister has slowly had the life bled out of her. Her own father has been ostracised and literally cut out of photographs (with scissors) meaning their family photo album looks very odd indeed.

My sister will have literally nobody when my mother is no longer around because my mother has made sure they have fallen out with everyone along the way. She tells her lies and tells her that people hate her, so as far as my sister is concerned, her dad (and his family) "hate her". I know this isn't true.

I would always be there for her if she needed me in the future. In the meantime I have my own family to care for and my own mental health is beign affected by their actions.

OP posts:
coldtits · 21/12/2009 11:44

But why does it matter if your children get a present and you don't? You're an adult!

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 11:47

you don't get it, do you?

It's not just a present to the sender, it's an act of manipulation.

The rpesent is sent to make a point.

Yes, I'm an adult, that's why I can see what they are trying to do.

OP posts:
BristolBella · 21/12/2009 11:49

(actually, it strikes me that unless you've ever been on the end of these sort of people and their actions, it might be impossible to see that these motives exist).

When I was 18, my mother took out an advert in the paper to wish me happy birthday. At the time, she had not uttered a word to me in months (literally - and we lived in the same house).

The greeting in the paper read "Happy birthday, love mum and dad"

I never called my stepfather "dad". The greeting was not meant for me, it was meant as a dig at my natural father.

The presents are a dig at me.

OP posts:
MarineIguana · 21/12/2009 11:50

But if it is an attempt to make a point, it's a fairly weak and crappy one since it's exactly the same as what loads of people do with no animosity involved at all. I'd just ignore it.

Though like I said my family aren't as extreme, my sister was quite like this at that age. Now she's in her 30s and though we're not close, we get on fine and she has broken free of my mum and very much has her own life. Most people can see sooner or later what a loon my mum is and she's not even as bad as yours. I'm sure most people your mum lies to and manipulates are aware of it, or will become aware of it eventually.

TheArmadillo · 21/12/2009 11:52

The present is sent to make a point but if by sitting down and discussing it you could make this whole situation go away then I assume you wouldn't have cut off contact in the first place.

You cannot control their behaviour only your reaction to it. You cannot force them to send all or none of you presents. You can only refuse to react to it. Getting upset and wanting to bring it up with them only shows them how much power they still have over you.

If this is affecting to you to this extent then yes you do need more professional help to deal with this.

It does hurt when things are done deliberately - I've had them done to me. But you have to have a method of dealing with them.

MarineIguana · 21/12/2009 11:52

btw I do know about these manipulation attempts - the question is, so what? You have to try to stop getting so wound up by such pathetic behaviour. Just think "ah well, she's mad" and move on. I know it's not always that simple but it's worth trying.

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 11:54

ah, you'd hope so wouldn't you.

You might be right. I agree it's a weak and crappy way to make a point, but I guess when you are 21 perhaps that's how you behave.

I can just see my mother revelling in it though. She loves it when people fall out, it's like a sport to her.

My poor sister really can't see how she's controlled. Every time I've tried to help, she's stepped in. I offered to buy driving lessons for her 18th and my mum convinced her she'd be a useless driver

OP posts:
coldtits · 21/12/2009 11:59

Bristolbella, my point about you being an adult is that you have adult powers, adult reasoning and an adult personality. It doesn't matter who they send a present to or who they don't send a present to. You have chosen to go 'no contact' - whyare you so surprised not to receive a present?

If the things they do seem a little bit bonkers but dismissible to everyone else, maybe it's because the things they do are a bit bonkers but ultimately dismissible?

I really don't see what you want your husband to do. You want him to go round there and shout at them for buying you a present? You want him to buy you extra presents?

Their behavior is the uncontrolled variable here. You cannot do anything with regards to another adult's behavior except modify your own.

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 12:12

coldtits, I really appreciate your opinion but you do keep returning to the point that I seem to feel I've missed out on presents.

No, I don't want my husband to buy me extra presents.

That suggests I'm a silly spoiled little girl who's upset she hasn't recieved a present.

Really not the point of this post!

OP posts:
ILoveGregoryHouse · 21/12/2009 12:15

BristolBella, I agree with coldtits re the only behaviour you can influence is your own. By reacting to this, you'll be doing what your mother wants you to do, surely? Best thing to do is let it wash over you. I know this must be very very difficult but that is the sane rational thing to do in the face of some pretty petty and silly behaviour. Keep the moral high ground please.

thedogsgottago · 21/12/2009 12:15

Cut them off completely. Your mother will never change and your sister sounds like shes going down the same route, you cant save your sister from your mum, and so they are making a point with the presents but so what, you know they are doing it to be spiteful just leave them to it, you've got a family concentrate on, let them stew in their own bitter juice.

coldtits · 21/12/2009 12:17

\So what do you want? What can your husband do to make you feel better about this? Cos he might be as baffled as I am as to why you are upset.

I'm guessing you want your mother and sister to grow up and act normal, but that's not something anyone can give you.

I understnad what it's like when family members do weird things, but for a long time I have put it down to them being weird. Weird people do weird things. Not my problem, not my concern.

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 12:20

I think total cut off sounds like the only option, perhaps that's what I'm coming to and what I need counselling for.

I guess I'd start by not sending thatnk you cards for the children's xmas presents, that would make me feel a little more in control and on top of their behaviour as they are trying to provkae a reaction and I'm left in the position of saying a perverse "thank you".

I sent a mother's day card last year and I wondered why I was doing that to myself. It's hard to contemplate never seeing my sister again because I was so close to her when she was a child.

But yes, she's going the same way as my mum.

OP posts:
coldtits · 21/12/2009 12:23

I think they MAY be trying to provoke an abnormal reaction in you. So just don't.

Start with the basic premise that they are odd and you are normal. Humour them nicely. Say thank you for the children's presents - it's what normal people do. Don't mention any lack of gifts on your own part - also what normal people do.

Don't get upset by them. You are giving them far too much of your headspace.

BristolBella · 21/12/2009 12:23

Coldtits, he's not baffled about why I'm upset.

I'm baffled that you are baffled that I'm upset.

Perhaps you have never been on the end of extremely unpleasant people.

I know a weirdo when I see one. A weirdo isn't necessarily dangerous, my mother is dangerous.

I have small children, I don't want them affected. She sends them presents and cards. It makes no difference whether it's a dangerous person in the family or on the bus or at work, you don't want them involved with your kids.

Hence feeling upset.

OP posts:
coldtits · 21/12/2009 12:26

But your children don't have HER for a mother, they have you (and a very good mother they have, I'm sure) and therefore a present from their grandmather is merely a present. YOU control whether or not they see her, interact with her, are influenced by her, and She is totally powerless in your life. She has no ability to upset you whatsoever if you don't let her. If she turns up and starts being weird, don't let her in. If she kicks off, call the police and have her removed.

her behavior is up to her and won't be affected by what you do - she's already decided that. Now you need to decide that the same is true for you.

loupiots · 21/12/2009 12:27

I?m sure you?re right about the presents ? sounds pretty typical behaviour.

Now, what do you want to do about it?

Why are you reacting so strongly? Because it?s Xmas? Has something happened? What?s fuelling this?

Your mother has been pulling this sort of crap all your life ? why is it affecting you so much, right now, at this point. The presents and blah, blah, blah are just a distraction. YOu're getting caught up in the gameplaying. Let yourself sit and think and work out what is really going on. And how you can let it go.

I think it?s still about expectation ? you want her (your mother) to be someone that she isn?t, and you want your family to behave normally. You need to let go of the fantasy, accept that she isn?t who you need her to be and free yourself from her clutches. It?s really hard, though, and for most of us it?s an ongoing project.

lizziemun · 21/12/2009 12:29

I think you will find this stately home thread more useful then a general thread.

The people on the stately home thread have all had difficult relationship with parents and have more insight as to what is happening to you.

BeginningAnew · 21/12/2009 12:57

Message withdrawn

AccioPinotGrigio · 21/12/2009 13:00

I think the second para of TheArmadillo's post of today at 11:52:32 is bang on.

Your sister is more to be pitied than despised, she is totally under the control of your mum. So, even when she is putting up a united front with your mum against you, it isn't really as uneven a 'battle' as you think. If anything you have more power than both of them and really don't need your husband to stand beside you in that sense.

You have a dh, lovely children, your own separate, enlightened, nurturing and happy life. The best thing your dh can do for you is to work to maintain the good life you have.

I think your instinct to go "no contact" with your sister is the right one. For now, she is blind to reality, too weak and immature to see the truth. Would you consider prefacing your total detachment from her with a letter, stressing that although you can have nothing to do with her as long as she is in your mother's thrall, if there does come a day when she needs you, then you will always be there for her. Detach with love and be the bigger, stronger person that you are.