I need some support - NPD manipulation and how to handle it

[BristolBella]

Long story briefly - NPD mother (I know, I know, an over-used term but trust me - she fits to tee). Lots of emotional abuse from the ages 12-18, finally left home and went to university, got a career, had lots of counselling, got married and now have a happy life.

Have tried to involve her in our lives (for the sake of our children) but actually this hasn't worked out because she continues to manipulate, attention seek, spread malicious gossip etc. I finally went "no contact" last xmas though have continued (against my better judgement I suppose) to send cards.

Family have been turned against me through spreading of malicious gossip and lies over the years. I now have no contact with any of my family at all, which can feel very lonely (and very unfair).

I have no dad.

I have a much younger sister (she's 21). She still lives with my mother. I was very, very close to her when she was a child and was worried my mother would treat her as she's treated me over the years but in fact my sister is nothing like me in any way (ie has never stood up for herself or shown any desire to break free). She turns out to be depressingly like my mother and, I suppose, not somebody I'd ever be friends with if we weren't related.

My mother holds on tight to my sister. My mother has tried hard to find a man over the years but her relationships never last (because they can't stand being controlled) so in the end my sister continues to be my mum's companion. I know she'd drop her like a stone if the right man ever came along but she's getting older now and it seems increasingly unlikely. So my sister has never leanred to drive or cook or use the washing machine. My mother drives her to work every day, disses her friends, discourages her relationships.

I haven't had contact with my mum for a year. I didn't originally intend to go "no contact" but was becoming increasingly upset with her behaviour at the end of last year (she actually started making stories up and inventing conversations) that I just couldn't take any more.

When I didn't see her for a few weeks in January this year, I began to receive quite nasty messages from my sister via Facebook accusing me of being a bad daughter. Of course, my sister knows and understands nothing of what I've been through, though I did try to tell her once.

She begins her messages "I know I'm in the right". She's fifteen years younger than me (though acts like a 14 year old most of the time) so obviously, it sort of gets my back up to recieve messages like this and the more she sent me messages, the less likely I was to go and see them. I was pregnant until June and really didn't need the stress.

Of course, the words in the message were my mothers. Like many NPD types, she lines other people up to fire her gun. She plays them like a fiddle and they have no idea they've been played.

After a year of no contact, I still have no desire to see my mother though recently I've contacted a counsellor because I need some support with the process I'm going through. I guess it's like grief.

Anyway, getting to the point (finally!) it was my birthday recently and I received a parcel from my mother which contained a birthday card from her and an xmas card for my husband and I but nothing from my sister. ALso in the parcel were xmas presents for the children and xmas cards for the children but nothing for my husband and I from my sister. My mother is (predictably) "doing the right thing" by sending cards and presents, while my sister is "making a point" by sending things for the children but totally ignoring me and my husband.

I find this totally unacceptable. It's as though I've removed myself from her but she's still getting to me (and more importantly, my family) by lining my sister up to fire the gun. My sister is being played and doesn't realise. However you look at it, it's totally unacceptable to send cards and presents to children in a house where you ignore the parents.

My mother's response would be "I've done nothing wrong. Your sister ignored your birthday but that's up to her, she makes her own decisions".

I am beginning to realise that what I really need isn't expensive counsellign, it's support from my husband. He fully understands the situation and agrees with my assessment but in the past he's never wanted to get involved for fear of saying or doing the wrong thing.

I'm just on here to get some advice from you guys on how to proceed with this. I would like my husband to stand up for me (we've been together for 20 years and he's never stood up and said anything) but don't know how to tell him this. I think it's time we approached this as a family rather than me coping with it alone all the time.

When I talk to him about it, he is quite dismissive. I guess he's heard it all before. When I spoke to him about my sister last night, he just said that she's being played by my mother and "that's her problem". Actually I think it's problem that's affecting me and affecting my family and I think we need to approach it jointly.

What do you guys think?

thanks for continuing to post on this.

I've just been out and come back in and re-read the thread and yes, I can see the points you are making with regard to controlling how I react rather than how she behaves.

I had a counsellor who went through this with me years ago and though it made sense at the time, I guess I'm in need of some sort of refresher course!

I admit this has come to a head recently and there are several factors. Christmas is obviously a time for families and I look around and see all sorts of extended family networks and it's hard not to feel that you've lost out on something.

I don't have much extended family, two cousins and an uncle and that's the lot really. My uncle and I grew up together as there's not much age difference and ditto my cousins as their parents used to take me on holiday when I was a child.

It has hit me today that none of my extended family ever received any "parenting". My uncle's father died when he was seven and his mother when he was about 15 (and they never got on anyway so when he was a teenager he was off smoking and drinking). My cousins' mother died when they were small children.

Because of this, these family members revere motherhood as though it's a tie that cannot be broken. Of course, they can't be blamed for feeling bereft of what they have never had, but in their eyes, I just "don't get on with" my mother and they think that going "no contact" is unforgivable. Both my uncle and my cousins "look up to" my mother as she is now the oldest family member and provides babysitting and that sort of thing. I guess she has replaced their own mothers in some way.

My mother has invested lots of time in getting them to take her side. I personally haven't invested time in this myself, not just because I'm too busy to be off busybodying but because I'm not interested in game playing and trying to get people to take sides.

My uncle hasn't spoken to me in over six years after I refused to allow my mother to give me away when I got married. At the time she fed him all sorts of lies and fabricated all sorts of things I could be accused of. Sadly he believed her as never stopped to hear my side of the story.

My cousins have been a more recent project. Just last week I contacted one of them to get her most up-to-date address for a Christmas card and she responded to this by blocking me on Facebook. Obviously my mother has been busy on her, too.

It makes you take stock, I guess.

It's hard being a mum isn't it? I have two small children and I feel I need to be a much better mother than my mum was. I have managed to provide a loving and secure home and they are happy, loved and confident. Then my mother and sister send presents and it's like a black cloud over me, like one day I'll have to explain all of this to them. For as long as they continue to think they can somehow bypass me and get to my children, I feel their malignant presence in my life.

I was clearing some drawers the other day and came across a packet of letters, drawings and craft stuff that my sister had sent to me when she was a child (I was at university). Looking back at them, I felt so sad. My mother threw me out of home at eighteen and I would have been glad never to have seen her again but for my little sister, who I really adored.

Over the years, she is the reason I stayed in contact and I was the one treasuring her drawings while my mother (by her own admission) never kept a thing. I thought when she grew up she might like to have all of these things she had made as a child.

I remember going to visit one time when she was about ten and she confided she was beiing bullied and she had tried to tell my mum, who had dismissed her. I ended up being the one to speak to her teacher as my mother wouldn't take it seriouly.

I supposed I am grieving for the child that was my sister, regretting the fact I stayed in contact (and thus exposed my children to this behaviour pattern) and upset about my wider family.

It seems irretrievable. That's hard to swallow.

I'd like to cut them out completely but they will continue to insist on contacting my children to get at me. I don't know how to prevent this.

I thought if we stood united as a family (ie my husband and me, not just me) then they might get the message. I think they would be shocked if he spoke up and this would convince them to stop game playing with our children

I have no contact with my dad, this is not an active decision it just happened...he's a knob end of story. Your situation is a lot more complicated as your mother brought you up and the early relationship with your sister, but you do seem to over analyse things, you know you cant turn back the clock with your sis, you know if there is any contact with them it'll only be bad, honestly cut them out, cut them out of your kids lives to, they are manipulative and spiteful you dont want people like that in your childrens lives, I wouldnt even bother telling your doing so, what would be the point your mum will only go round the family mouthing off about it. If you live close to them, ie, might see them in the street I would consider moving to if you can afford it. I dont know anything about counselling as you can probably tell, but if you continue to have contact or your kids do, this'll keep happening at xmas, b-days etc and you'll never be able to let it go.

You can't control others and how they act. All you can do is control how YOU act and behave.

That's it really.

But on the other hand, your children are their family members (I know, it sucks!) and they can send them presents if they want. Perhaps it's just to get at you, perhaps it's also that your mother and sister want to maintain links with your DC (whether for good or dodgy reasons). There ins't much you can do about it. In your shoes I would get the C to write thank you cards and send them, but not make it from you or about you. And if you want to make your position clear, do not send them cards like mother's day cards or whatever or offer to pay for driving lessons. If you are going to butt out, butt out. Sorry if that sounds harsh but I think you are sending mixed messages - you are kind of reaching out to them, then getting the hump when they try to contact you.

I so, so understand having to say goodbye to the family you wished you had, and I think Christmas really rubs this in. Even now at 40 I have a fantasy of nice, loving, non-hurtful parents who did not do things that I can never forgive them for, and siblings who don't do my nut in, and I dream of having an actually enjoyable big family christmas where I look forward to seeing them and cooking and being together. I can't have that and never had it. Some family members I have cut off, others I see but it's f*cking hard work and distressing. But there it is.

All I can do, like you, is build a new family that will be better, that is based on love and trust and not hurting each other. We are lucky to have this and we have to focus on our responsibilities in that area and not become the parents that will be talked about like this in 20 or 30 years' time.

Your mom and sister will do what they will, as they choose, for whatever motivation or reason.

You can not change them, you can only change you. Your dh really can't do anything for you-this is entirely your problem to retrain your brain in how you perceive/deal with them.

You think that they are 'making a point' to be mean to/degrade/dismiss you, which may be true. Or there is the possibility that it may be circumstances sewn together from your perspective only-the little 'digs' can add up to an expectation of looking for insults.

Look for them, and you will find them. Even an innocent "good morning" can be construed as an insult.

If they are dumping on you, you have played the recepient very well according to their script.

You have been trained by them to have the drama-that is why it is hard to step away from it. It feels like if they have the last word then they are right...let them have the last word-you (and dh) know they are not right. That is all that matters.

A way out of this is to stop taking the bait. Do not respond. There wasn't a gift for you: so what? Really, how much brain space and time of your life are you going to spend (waste) on this?

At this point, my recommendation to you is to reduce your expectations for them to zero. Across the board, permanent policy.
Perceived disrespect will slide off as if you are teflon. Anything nice will be a plesant surprise.

Good luck-I do feel for you and know something of your frustration and outrage.

Fwiw, my sister is a narcissistic mother superior control freak and I've "taken a break" from our relationship 2 years ago.

you have the wrong end of the stick about driving lessons, though Marine.

I offered them when she was 17. She's 21 now. I'm not sending mixed messages, I haven't had contact with either of them in 12 months.

I have "butted out" so to speak.

You are right, of course. I can hear you've been through all of this shite yourself.

We need to start up an adoptee group, I reckon. I could easily get a granny and several (probably annoying in a good way) aunties to buy presents for!

Oops sorry about that bella. But at least you know I'm on your side!

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if I'm repeating here, but I think it's fine to send presents to children and not the parents. My husband and I do not yet have children and my brother (who still lives in my home town, dominates my mum and dad and is almost certainly NPD) has two kids, so we send christmas and birthday stuff to the children. I usually send my brother a little birthday present too. They sometimes send me a BD present (never anything to the in law brother or sister)
I think parents don't realise how annoying it can be when they expect 'more' gifts than they give.

oh Googie, but this is the other way round.

If someone has NPD, you can't punish the kids by not sending presents.

It's my mum who has NPD, not me. She sends presents as a form of manipulation. She will withold them for similar reasons.

She bought me a present for my birthday last year and later removed it from me in spite. I'm afraid she doesn't have much power in life and sees the giving and receiving of presents as power in itself. If you give her a present, she will immediately try to find out what you've spent on her and has (in the past) checked whether I've spent more on her or my MIL.

You need to read the whole thread. You aren't repeating, just totally missing the point, sorry.

Hello Bella

You may find this forum useful thepsychopath.freeforums.org/

Everyone there will know exactly what you are taking about.

In the end though, you have to let them go. I have an entire family of Ns and In-laws too...I see some of them and not others. Nowadays I just either let it all go over me, or if it is just too nasty, I call them on it. But the crucial thing is I don't get upset.

It's on MY terms now...but it has taken me my whole life to get to this stage.

Your sis sounds lost to me, sad but not unusual. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. I think if you can finally come to accept that then you will get some peace.

It's an illness like any other...but they will never get better.

xxx

Frankie - thank you, thank you.

I know you understand. I understand why others don't.

I'll go have a look now.

Frankie, I've had a look.

That's where they all are!

(another light goes on!)

BB, I have a very NPD mother and I went no contact 13 years ago, so I really do get where you are coming from.

Couple of points. Firstly, you say 'If someone has NPD, you can't punish the kids by not sending presents.' You are not punishing them! Most kids really do not need more presents. Make a decision - if you don't trust your Mum and don't want her near your kids, don't let her. That includes presents and cards. Kids accept the reality they grow up in - my daughter has never met my Mum, she never queries it, I pass any presents (sporadic) straight on to the charity shop.

Secondly, I think you need to stop trying to rescue your sister. Maybe read up on transactional analysis to understand some of the dynamics here. If you go no contact (which I would probably recommend) consider doing it by letter which says I love you and I'll always be here for you. Then let it be - to be a bit psychobabble I think you've wanted to rescue her as a way of rescuing the 12-18 year old you that was treated so badly. Sadly you can't and you need to grieve for that. I don't think you need counselling, I think you could possibly benefit from some proper full-on psychotherapy as this is heavy stuff. Telling your story isn't always enough, it sometimes needs to be a bit deeper.

Thirdly, I don't think you are no contact with your Mum. I think you're sending ambivalent messages with the cards etc. She is also still really messing with your head. You sound confused and hurt - and this is a good thing, because this is how a normal human being reacts, it's her that's being mad. And, sadly, there is nothing you can do to change that but you can stop it from blighting your life.

I think your mother is making a play for your children. My priority above all else would be to protect them
FWIW I think you should totally go no contact ie send all communications to you or your family back unopened, be that cards, letters or presents, to you or the kids. You are allowing her a way in by accepting these, whilst also allowing her to upset you greatly. I mean look at the upset she has caused with this one incident.
You could try to just laugh it off but I think this runs too deep, NC is the way to go I feel.

Also agree totally with queenofdenials post.

I dont think you can save your sister either sadly Maybe consider sending a letter as queen said and then leave it be.

i'm with queentofdenial here too.

i would seriously think of no contact. anything from her goes straight to charity shop. don't open cards. don't send cards. but this is very hard to do, full of guilt, sadness and anger.

i like the idea of sending your sister a letter to the effect that you love her and you will be there for her. leave it at that.

i think over time you will feel a lot better.

Hi Bella,

I read the whole thread and I can see where you're coming from.

I think it's actually very hard sometimes to explain why people (usually family) have such a hold over us. Even if they (mother, father, brother...whoever) treat us like shit and we recognise it, there's an almost physical pain associated with cutting them out of our lives, or accepting that we don't have the sort of family that we would love/feel we deserve.

I don't have one like that either. There's always some issue, some unresolved history, and, for me, birthdays and Christmas just remind me of it. Little things can represent that pain (the presents, for you, I think) and it just reminds you of the fact that this is still a live issue. Even going NC is a 'live issue'.

I am saying this to myself as much as to you, but I do think the only way to enjoy your own life (which sounds lovely apart from this big issue!) is to accept that you didn't do too well in the family lottery. Perhaps you did better in the husband lottery, or the health lottery, or the child lottery....a litle glib, I know, but you get the point.

"I am saying this to myself as much as to you, but I do think the only way to enjoy your own life (which sounds lovely apart from this big issue!) is to accept that you didn't do too well in the family lottery. Perhaps you did better in the husband lottery, or the health lottery, or the child lottery....a litle glib, I know, but you get the point."

This is on of the most sensible things I have read on Mumsnet for ages!

Thanks for posting it!

Aww, shucks

"I am saying this to myself as much as to you, but I do think the only way to enjoy your own life (which sounds lovely apart from this big issue!) is to accept that you didn't do too well in the family lottery. Perhaps you did better in the husband lottery, or the health lottery, or the child lottery....a litle glib, I know, but you get the point."

Printing out, posting on refrigerator...
Thanks, googietheegg

I did hit it very nicely in the dh and dc categories but my family of origin (save my oldest sister) is , no let me revise that: .

And BBella: it is a long transition getting through the "FOG" (fear obligation guilt). Don't give up, you deserve to be free of it.

Bella are you OK?

I'm okay, I've been out at Panto all day and had a long train journey home (oh no I didn't!)

I will post more

Thanks to you all, you speak sense.

I understand & sympathize. It is great that your husband is suppportive but as he wasn't brought up with it he won't fully understand the pain it causes you & the way that you are manipulated. You can't change your mother & sister but you can try & work on your reaction to them & detach from it again & keep your boundaries firm. It is great you have a good marriage & family & you are aware of what happened so that you can keep your children safe. My mother in law is NPD - we have only just realised after 20 years of difficulties. But it is good to have an explanation.