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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Money,control,debt.

35 replies

iamanaddict · 08/12/2009 20:53

Am looking for any advice or helpful words.
I have been married for more than 15 yrs and throughout t hat time DH has belittled me in subtle,and not so subtle,ways.
For some years I have been undergoing psychiatric treatment for depression and OCD.
My addictive personality has meant that I have run up debts over the years,which DH has sometimes paid off,for which i am grateful.
However he has always been controlling with money,despite earning a big salary in a very secure profession.
We have small mortgage,2 good pensions,savings.
However yet again I have overspent,I offer no excuses,bar the fact that I allowed short term pleasure from purchases to overcome my good sense.
I suppose it boosted my fragile self esteem.
DH's undermining of me is noticed by mutual friends,and I know at least one of his own friends finds him difficult.He had a financially insecure upbringing,ad a brief early marriage which I know has left its mark.
In all our years together he has complimented me only a couple of times,and the same with our children.
I do lovehim,he is not a bad man at all,but I feel I am apologising for my spending over and over,receiving treatment,but not confronting the other part of the problem,ie HIM.
can anyone help me at all,in any way?
Thanyou.

OP posts:
iamanaddict · 08/12/2009 22:16

Anyone??

OP posts:
iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 09:07

Anyone this morning?

OP posts:
RealityIsHungover · 09/12/2009 09:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

abitchilly · 09/12/2009 09:26

I think people have not replied yet because there's something about your post that makes it hard to see what sorts of replies you're after.

That's not a criticism - I doubt you know either and are just reaching out a bit.

So I didn't want you to go unanswered.

You say you're 'receiving treatment' - do you mean for the spending addiction? Does this involve counselling? If so, surely you discuss your relationship and can probe a bit into whether problems here are a symptom or a cause?

Counselling is definitely worth looking into if this isn't already happening.

Also, people might be holding themselves back from answering because it does sound like you have a comfortable life, and people struggle a bit to understand the sorts of issues you're having in your circumstances.

But you will get great support on here if you persevere.

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 09:36

Thanks for that ladies.
I realise that I am lucky in lots of ways,and yes I am receiving counselling for my addictions.
I am not trying to make excuses,I do understand my problems,I suppose I am trying to get a different perspective on things.
I am not trying to shy away from my own problems,far from it,but I don't feel I can fully get to the bottom of things without DH perhaps admitting some of his own weaknesses,ifyswim.
I spend because I am depressed and have low self esteem.When 'i've spent I feel depressed and so I know only I can break the cycle.
Just writing it down has helped,despite all the treatment I have!
Thankyou again.

OP posts:
Stillcountingthebaubles · 09/12/2009 10:11

Hi I'manaddict sorry you are struggling with all of this currently

I'm no expert but I do have a sister who over-spends which causes all sorts of friction within our family ...

I think maybe the way to try and deal with this (jsut a suggestion) is to try and separate the two issues ...I know that sounds counter-intuitive as you are saying one definitely has an effect on the other ... but ....

Hard as it may sound when you live with someone who you feel is belittling you, is that only you are responsible for your own happiness. Your husband isn't. You could try counselling together but you can't change him unless he is willing to change. You CAN change yourself and your reaction to him (if that makes sense).

So perhaps the way to go is to concentrate on your own self-esteem - do you earn any money yourself ? - Could you get a part-time job? If not, could you perhaps become less dependent on your dh in other ways ..

Or could you try and focus on another activity to replace the shopping? Ie work for a charity, volunteer in a charity shop, take up something creative or something that you really enjoy doing that will fill up that "empty space" within you that causes you to over-spend?

Once he sees you are making an effort to break the cycle ... and that he can trust you (trust is a big issue here) then maybe his attitude will change???? If not, you know that you have done the very best you can, you can hold your head up high and know that this is his problem, not yours ...and you can go forward and try and address the issues within your marriage ...

I don't know if any of that makes sense but whatever the underlying cause of this situation I think you need to take the iniative bluntly because you are the one that "transgressed" originally. Easier said than done I know if you are feeling depressed, but you need to try and restore the trust between you and your dh here first ... then other positive things will surely follow ....

Good luck with it ...

veryconfusedandupset · 09/12/2009 10:19

I looked at your post earlier and didn't really know if I could say anything useful, now the subject has opened up a bit I just really wanted to send you a message of support and say that perhaps couples counselling would be a possible source of help.

It seems that whatever brought you together as a couple there is one big conflict in your personalities. You say DH came from a financially insecure background - so obviously financial security and being careful with money will be an issue with him. Whether his family were unfortunate or profligate he will have a deep grained feelings about this, and it may be that memories of difficulties and unhappiness in his childhood linked to lack of money loom large.

Although your spending is not from an objective and reasoned desire to accumulate things running up debt puts you into a substantial conflict with him. He may respect you and love you on one level, but the spending, and perhaps the dependency that comes with your condition creates a situation where he cannot view you as an equal, subconsciously he may even be feeling a need to punish you or control you because of this. This is of course clearly speculation, but it really is an emotional minefield. You may even be winding each other up in an escalation of your respective behaviours as time goes by with action and re action.

I cannot see that in seeking a "cure" for yourself, to accommodate him, you will entirely resolve the problem - you need to do this but for you self. You also really need to work on the dynamics of your relationship - is there any scenario you can really talk in except for counselling? For most couples there is a time that is right for mellow reflection - I'm just thinking of all the problem solving my DH and I have done over a bottle of good wine in front of an open fire on a winter's evening. You will need more than that but anything to open communication would be good.

He probably has no idea how to cope with your behaviour and this is why he is as he is. He probably views it as a serious weakness that annoys and frustrates him and he deals with this by drawing back and putting you down.

Sorry if this seems a bit simplistic, but it is a complex problem you have not had much of a response to and if by adding my thoughts I can give you another way of thinking about it I hope it will help.

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 10:26

Thanks Stillcounting....
Yes,I do work part time already in an equally stressful job,plus we have 3 children.
I actually don't 'shop' that much now,but am still paying off debts so my own money doesnt go far,and so I end up using a card to pay for food,petrol etc.
I know what you are saying about being responsible for your own happiness,and I agree,but it has been difficult to remember that at times.
I know why in the past I have bought too many clothes,I have felt 'worthless' in myself and got a buzz from people complimenting my looks,which of course DH never does.
For a brief moment I have felt good,until reality kicks back in.I think I equated 'things' with success.

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iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 10:31

My god,Veryconfused,you are right.
I am in tears readfing your post
I am a person that puts on a very brave face with other people,always cheerful,capable,making jokes.....the reality is a bit different.
He thinks I need'punishing' I suppose,wheras I know I need help,not censure as such,although I do accept my guilt.

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Trebuchet · 09/12/2009 10:39

Hi just a thought have you thought about a debt management plan? The cccs are great. They could negotiate with your debtors for you to pay back an amount each month you can afford, then you would not have to get into more debt with things like petrol etc.. It may also be a way for you to control your spending and DH might feel like you are in this together rather than feeling like he's "bailing you out" so to speak.

Also they will kick you off the plan if you rack up more debts so its a good incentive to stay on the straight and narrow, you'd have to find other ways about feeling better about yourself.

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 10:54

Thanks Trebuchet.
The trouble is,wouldnt that affect our joint credit rating?
Dh would never go for that.
Plus,DH has 3 times what I owe in savings etc.
I -know that I should not expect a 'bail out',but some of my debt is because I don't have access any money and so have racked up debt to pay for food etc.

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Stillcountingthebaubles · 09/12/2009 11:02

Some good advice and insight from veryconfused there ...

On the shopping debt/front ..sounds as if you are doing really well and making progress ...

what doesn't sound great is that you are using a card to pay for joint household bills (food, petrol). That must be really demoralising; when you are really making efforts to get on top of your old debts, you are stacking up new ones...

Have you and dh spoken about this? Does he know that this is happening? Could you possibly talk together and allocate what should go on household expenses, what should go on debt re-payment etc etc ...? Otherwise worried you will be in same situation all over again as cc debts accummulate to quickly ...

Good advice from Trebuchet too. I remember from dealing with my sister's situation that she was advised to "draw a line under her old debt" and start focusing on paying current bills - then pay back old debt very gradually but regularly (perhaps negotiate this with whoever you owe) with whatever you left over ...even if it is just £5 a month ....you might need to re-negotiate interest payments ....

Courage!

maeggee · 09/12/2009 11:12

hello iamanadict ,I do not know what everybody is talking about but sister I do understand what you mean,you should not feel guilty to please yourself by spending on you, if he was attentive and affectionate you could have just clothe yourself with his eyes , so stop beating yourself , you are totally right to find comfort in spending and trying to look good for yourself . I tell you what ?listen to my story , I come from quite a comfortable family and have two degrees and speak four languages , when I had my first child I was doing a masters and working at the same time , I used to get paid and go to Harrods and get me a handbag with my whole salary, my big sisters used to borrow clothes and bags from me I was always a confident person and thought that my husband was my soul mate.As soon as my first baby arrived I started drssing up from the sales but putting my money towards expensive children stuff , houses , food , bills , all he did was pay the mortgage , I would not even bother him to change a bulb ,for 10 years he never took me to the restaurant or the cinema ; or the kids if we did I took them myself and I paid for it.Even when I was out of work he wanted me to spend as much , his money was for his car , his loans and the mortgage, that is it , I used to pay even for petrol for him to go to work , even when I did not agree with his purchases he will go ahead with it, he earns quite a lot but never agreed to have a joint account with me , never gave me his visa for a thing in 10 years can you beleive that ?I actually want to kill myself I do not even have a car , he wants me to keep on taking the bus for anything I want to do ;even food shopping , I have not been to a swimming pool for 10 years and I love swimming I cannot work now that I have back pain and feeling very low I am depressed and regret not enjoying my own money when I had some he cannot be bothered to buy me lingerie but when I buy it with my own money he is happy , so dont you feel guilty for a thing you would have done otherwise it would not have change his attitude , it is not about him it is about you , the mother and the woman in you , how many times did I bail out my husband when he cannot even buy me christmas presents?I buy his clothes , underwear , shaving cream since we have been toguether , so sod them

Stillcountingthebaubles · 09/12/2009 11:14

Sorry x posts
In that case, you definitely need to negotiate a proper budget/household expenses with your dh.

You can't manage without enough money for food for heaven's sake!!

Is it that he doesn't contribute anything and expects you to foot all the household expenses (totally unreasonable), or do you disagree on the amount, or is he keeping it tight because he doesn't trust you?

I guess in your shoes I would keep a very detailed log of food shopping and regular household bills over the next month and then approach him with all the facts and figures and re-negotiate ....

You need to get all of this on a much more equal footing ... I'm annoyed on your behalf because I don't think you should be in the position of "asking" for housekeeping money ... you are working pt and looking after 3 dc ...food/petrol/household bills should be shared according to each of your means ...

How involved is he with childcare/cleaning/food shopping/cooking if you don't mind me asking???

ginnybag · 09/12/2009 12:28

This is quite complicated, isn't it? And, although you say his attitude to you is a cause for your depression etc, I wonder whether you've realised there's a lot of chicken and egg to this situation.

To begin with, you need to tackle the immediate situation.

To start with, as PP have said,you need to deal with the issue of the 'household' accounts. You should have enough money to pay for essentials and half of it, at least, should come from him.

As a suggestion, set up a joint account that all these expenses are drawn from, direct debit as much as you can and withdraw X amount of cash a week to cover the rest. Put the cards (both of you!) in a drawer (or a safe!) and don't use them! This is also the account that both of your salaries and any Benefits you receive should be paid into.

Then, sit down with your DH and work out an equitable way to budget the rest of your finances. Set up two more current accounts into which you both get a set amount of apending money each month. This is the only account that you should carry plastic for - ever!

Get rid of the credit cards, right now. Cut them up. All you're doing is creating more debt. Being horribly blunt, you carryng a credit card is the equivalent of an alcoholic carrying a bottle of whiskey in their pocket. Sooner or later, they will drink... and you will overspend.

You should have access to enough money to make reasonable repayments on your debts without being completely broke or struggling to pay the bills if, as a family, you are in a position to do this. Anything else is short-sighted of your DH - there's most likely already a financial link between you and every time your credit rating takes a hit, so does his - and leaving you short will make you dwell on the issue.

Unfortuantely, what you can't expect him to do is repeatedly bail you out. That would be facilitating your addiction on his part and not very fair of you to expect. You must continue treatment and he must see you making an effort to change. You may want to consider counselling for both of you, just to give you both a chance to be blunt about your perspectives on this particularly if, as you say, he has his own background causes for being touchy about money.

Now, here's where it gets chicken-and-egg and here's where I'm likely going to upset you (I'm not trying to!) and get myself ripped to shreds by other posters!

You cannot expect your DH to not be controlling of your finances when you freely admit you can't be trusted with money. He'd be mad not to keep an eye on things.

And, although it's not right that he belittles you, you may have to bite your tongue a little bit and accept that he's lost respect for you because of your behaviour - and that something of that is showing in his attitude.

Every time you get yourself into more debt, you put your whole family's financial security into more jeopardy - including your children's. So far, it doesn't sound like there have been consequences beyond you getting a few warning letters - but will that continue? Sooner or later, a creditor will come banging on the door who won't accept anymore missed payments or what have you and will start threatening legal action. Legal action that can include court orders, bailiff's, and respossessions. You simply cannot expect your husband to be sympathetic about your exposing your children to that risk!

You have a right to expect him to support you whilst you seek treatment, but it sounds as if he has been, to some extent. You say he's paid off debts for you in the past, for one thing, which, again is as it should be, but only if it makes a difference in the long run - which it doesn't seem to have.

You say you shouldn't have to apologise over and over - and you shouldn't, if it's only one incident that your husband won't let go. But if you're repeatedly doign the same thing, then apologising, then tbh, yes you should have to apologise (unless you think it's fair that your DH has to accept your behaviour?) and you should also be willing to realise that your apologies are probably meaningless.

This is why I'm suggesting your both go for counselling. It's no different than any other couple struggling with an addiction in one of them.

I'm sorry for being so harsh... but perhaps go and have a look at all the threads which start 'My DH keeps drinking or whatever...' and see what advice is given to the poster's there. Your husband should support you in treatment and he should be willing to draw a line under the past and move forward without holding it against you whilst you make the effort to seek treatment but it has to be a two way street, I'm afraid, and you need to make some of the effort to earn back the respect you've lost from him.

CarGirl · 09/12/2009 12:37

It sounds like you need your dh to start complimenting you and your dc in the areas where you deserve being complimented (ie anything other than your spending habits)

That would help raise your self esteem and help you overcome your addiction?

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 13:04

Thanks girls.
What has happened is that I am now debts from ages ago,as I can only afford the minimum payment.
I pay for food,petrol,my loan and the minimum payments but there is nothing left.
DH earns in excess of £100k,he pays mortgage,bills,holidays etc.
He has quite alot of savings.
Whilst I don't want him to 'enable' my behaviour,if he ccould help by paying off the credit cards then I would be able to clear the loan in 2 years,I could then repay him some of the money that he leant me,ifyswim.
Does this sound unreasonable?
My medication and therapy have helped me so much that I can control my addictions;I could use his card online if I had the urge to spend but I dont.

OP posts:
maeggee · 09/12/2009 13:27

Hi iamanaddict , why do you even call yourself so? you got to these point because he did not look at the mere of you for you to be confident , you are just hiding behind the expenses to redeem yourself so his money is yours you should not have to repay him any monies I do not understand love and marriage anymore

ginnybag · 09/12/2009 13:38

In which case... yes, he should be letting it go and yes, as he is your husband, it would be better for your family if he helped you get straight so that you could put the whole business behind you.

Good on you for beating this... it's incredibly tough!

Still think you should both sit down for some counselling!

Oh, and yes, he should be paying you compliments in other areas, and his feelings for you should not affect how he treats the children.

Perhaps leave a book about addiction and its causes lying around for him to read, if he won't listen to an explanation that continued resentment towards you will only make things worse.

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 16:01

Yes,Ginnybag,I will get a book.Oh no,can't buy anything!
I have said that we need to go to Relate.He hasn't yet agreed,he thinks it is my debts that are the problem.
I feel that I have done everything to try and get help,ie medication,CBT,acknowledging the problem itself...
However,in the short term the money struggle is making me depressed,my own fault I know.
He thinks that I should be punished I think,either by him leaving me,or by witholding the means to clear some of the debts.
Ironically,divorce would cost him far ore in the long run,and I know tha tis not what he really wants.

OP posts:
maeggee · 09/12/2009 17:36

he does not know what he wants it is both your problem not yours there is a reason for this addiction you did not get there on your own , I TELL YOU I there is a core reason and he is , money issues are depressing me as well and it is not that I have been splashing I was the careful one so do not beat yourself n that counselling do not let him sleep until he agrees to it , dont you beat yourself up when he has the means and the duty to make you feel better about yourself and your marriage ; dont you know we are stronger than we think

iamanaddict · 09/12/2009 20:42

Good luck with your own troubles Maeggee.

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SolidGoldpiginablanket · 09/12/2009 22:55

I wonder if your DH is 'belittling' you because he is worn out with the long grind of living with an addict whose addiction is causing him and his children ongoing difficulties. OK you are getting treatment, but you still seem to be in the addiction stage of everything being about you , expecting him just to suck up whatever difficulties your behaviour creates because you've said you're sorry, etc.
Your H did not cause your addiction, he can't cure or control it, and what you see as 'punitive' behaviour could well be an attempt on his part to not enable you to continue your addiction.

ginnybag · 10/12/2009 09:51

Nobody said you had to buy the book. Have you looked in the local library.

I agree with you - the short term money issues are not fair and need resolving.

Can you acknowledge what some of us have been saying...? That your debts and how you got them may may be contributing to his attitude towards you?

Do you think that's a fair statement or has he always been like this, right from day one, before he ever knew anything about your financial problems?

You do seem to be looking for him to help you out and, in some ways, I think he should. You are his wife, after all, and if he's not willing to help you then there is something wrong. But if this has been going on for years and he's helped you before without any improvements to the overall state of things, can you understand why he doesn't seem to be listening to you when you 'but this time, it's different...?'

Can I ask... what steps have you made to control your debts? Have you contacted your creditors and asked them to reduce your payments so you manage monthly. I know a payment plan was suggested earlier on but you didn't seem keen.

I think maybe you should go back to advice you were given early in the thread: Draw up a budget, contact your creditors, show the household expenses etc and then show it to your husband and then stick to it for a couple of months. Prove that you can do this now, that the treatment is working.

Then if he won't listen, you may have to take stock of your marriage and see where you stand.

iamanaddict · 10/12/2009 12:37

I do accept that DH's attitude is coloured by my problems,yes.
I could contact creditors,but no creditor would listen surely if they knew our household income was well in excess of £100k and my debts amount to aound £10k?
My thoughts were to either ask DH to pay for food,thus freeing up £100s per month to put to paying them off,or to borrow the money from him,agreeing a set repayment amount each month that I could afford,but obviously without interest.
TBh the money is earning little in the bank as it is,so he wouldnt really be worse off,plus it isnt 'earmarked' for anything in particular.
Sorry f I sound like I am expecting yet again for him to 'bail' me out,but I am aware that agreeing a payment plan with creditors would adversely affect him,which I don't want,and in our case it isnt really necessary.
I now have no credit cards at all.Nor will i.

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