DIL problems - or am I a terrible MIL?

[DistraughtMIL]

Have name-changed for this, just in case... and it's going to be long.

I have two young adult sons. Neither are actually married so I suppose DIL/MIL is slightly misleading, and I apologise for that, but it's a form of shorthand for the relationships.

DS2 and his GF (GF2) made me a granny earlier this year, and they're wonderful parents. I adore their DD; they spend about half the week here and half the week at GF2's mum's house, and would love to get their own place but they can't afford to just yet. I get on very well with this GF, really like and admire her.

The problem is with the GF of DS1 (GF1). They also spend some time here and some at her house, but she has a difficult background which includes abandonment, and DV with a previous BF. This has led to chronic low self-esteem and associated self-harming behaviour, including bulimia. (I am not unsympathetic, and she has discussed these issues with me. I am willing, and have offered, to support her in whatever therapy she wishes to seek, but she hasn't/won't got/get help, and she hasn't opened up to me in over 18 months.)

DS1 and his GF would also like to have their own place and can't afford it, but rather than accepting it, DS1 constantly clashes with his dad (my DH, we are still together), in what looks to me like a territorial battle. I think of it as "antler-clashing;" his attitude towards me is quite different. DS1 and his GF have been together longer than DS2 and his GF, but we're talking years in both cases, not months or weeks. All parties were teenagers when they got together, DS2 still is.

DH and I recently went away for a few days, and to our disappointment came back to both DSs complaining about each other. DS1 seems to have wanted to be the "man of the house" and adopted a rather bossy attitude, which naturally raised the hackles of DS2. GF1 also seems to have assumed a "superior" role to which she isn't really entitled, and has pissed-off DS2 and his GF (mildly) in so doing.

Things have only got worse since we returned, and came to a head a few days ago when DS1 (very bravely) wanted to talk to us about our relationship with his GF. I will admit that I didn't handle it well, but I didn't actually say any of the less-than-charitable things I thought. I did, however, take an early bath and went to bed, because I was furious and wanted/needed the space to calm down, and think seriously about what was/is going on.

Apparently, GF1 feels that we're not giving her enough attention, when our DGD gets lots. She actually flounced out of the house a few days ago over the issue; apparently (oooh, can you tell how I feel about that behaviour? ) we had failed to say "Hello" when she arrived because we were playing with DGD at the time. To put it in context, we do usually (and I did, on that occasion, though DH didn't) acknowledge her presence but it's difficult to have a conversation with her, so usually it's "Hi GF2!" to which she replies "Hi" and then goes upstairs to DS1's room.

I did calm down before I flounced off to bed the night of The Conversation, and said to DS1 that I'm willing to make compromises, but that GF1 needs to make them too; and if she wants to have a conversation it helps if she responds to conversational overtures. For example, I knew she'd had hospital (outpatient) treatment recently, and when she got back from it I asked her how it had gone. She said "Fine" and went upstairs.

So, darling MNers, if you've read this far - I do want to have a good relationship with GF1. She's likely to be the mother of my future DGC, and I'd like that relationship to go well. But, tbh, she's difficult, and while I'm willing to make compromises that doesn't mean that she/DS1 get to dictate how I live, or how I behave in my own home.

I'm not a naturally chatty, outgoing person anyway, and find it easier with GF2 because she is.

But both GF1 and I are awkward - obviously, it's my house and more to the point, I'm the older woman, so I should be more understanding/willing to compromise. How do I achieve this?

I think you have been wonderful and not the least bitchy about her

I agree with Bonsoir - but assume you have no choice and have to make it work, as least for a while.

Also agree with NQC that DIL1 is damaged and it will be hard ever to have an genuinely easy relationship with her. You sound abs great btw and v self-aware.

I think get DS1 and 2 together and explain that you love them both ABSOLUTELY equally. Then explain that GD1, though fathered by DS2, is nevertheless a completely different entity - her own little human life who has her own self-hood, entirely unconnected to her relationship to DS2. By the very nature of her babyhood she deserves a huge amount of love and attention just as they both had when they were babies. In other words separate those two issues - DS1's rivalry with DS2, and DS1/DIL1's envy of GD1 - out from each other.

I think lots of people might disagree with this next suggestion, but have you considered a letter to DIL1? One which simply says, as generously as you can, I care very much for you, you're very special, I admire your strength, you are very welcome in my house. Not 'i do hope we can be friends' or anythign, just a statement which has no baggage attached to it. (although 'you're very welcome in my house' could be received as implying the possibility of the opposite I guess.'

Sometimes people who are very focused on their own pain, as she is, take well to the physicality of a letter, in an almost talismanic way - but it's hard to judge without knowing her.

Good luck, v diff situation.

I second the point that the source of a lot of this tension is DS1, I think figuring out his behaviour and motives are probably key. GF1 may be following his lead in a way. Because of his attitude she probably feels she has his permission to "dislike" you, for dislike read take her frustrations out on you.

TBH I don't see this set up working long term. DS1 and GF are in their twenties? And DS1 is getting "territorial", if at all possible they need their own place.

Can I ask how old your ds' and their GF are? and if there is a specific reason they are not in rented accomodation/benefits/council accomodation?

Obviously it´s OPs decision what she does with her house.

If the room is used as an extra living room, both sons and girlfriends get the use of it.

As a nursery, just the baby,and by extension only one son and girlfriend.

"But both GF1 and I are awkward - obviously, it's my house and more to the point, I'm the older woman, so I should be more understanding/willing to compromise. How do I achieve this?:

No no - as YOU are the older woman, and as she is living in YOUR house, GF1 should be the one willing to compromise.

I don't understand how you have let the situation get this far, TBH. Two sets of adults, living in your house, one with a baby? It's time for them to live their own lives. Be cruel to be kind. Chuck 'em out. (OK, perhaps you could be a bit more lenient of the couple with the baby, but honestly? DS1 and his GF are just 'avin a laff - and the joke seems to be on you).

I think I agree with BonsoirAnna and Ingles and Merrylegs on this one. This isn't actually working, you will end up all of out making each other unhappy. Is there any reason at all why two adult couples cannot find themselves rented accommodation? Surely the pair with the baby they should be able to claim benefits and/or council accommodation if they are not earning. I think the most supportive thing here would be to encourage them to move out; I can't see that for two brothers to be continuously rubbing up against each other's jealousies is going to be good for them.

I agree that they should be finding their own places though,as they are not boyfriends/girlfrinds, they are all living together.

I agree with Custardo, I think you feel guilty at how effortless your relationship is with GF2 and in doing so are bending over backwards to accommodate GF1 - and in danger of doing that to the detriment of DS2 and his family.

I think in actual fact you need a talk with your DS1 before you speak to GF1. You need to impart to him how you feel, what your priorities are (DGD over TV room etc.) He is pushing the buttons at the moment.

You don't need to take her out for food, if food is an issue. Why not ask her to come shopping with you, and chat there? She sounds damaged, and she's probably quite needy.

To a far lesser extent than gf1 I've had a troubled past and I get depressed a lot, and I get the sense that my mil can't be bothered with it, thinks that any kindness or talking through things is pandering (even though she has no idea what she'd be pandering to as she's never expressed any interest in my past, she just assumes I'm a moody cow)

So maybe she needs to be reminded that you do care and would like a relationship with her even though you have a grandchild now by your other son and his gf - it probably feels to her like gf2 can do no wrong and is getting masses more attention (rightly so imho) because of the baby - for the sake of harmony perhaps you could try to break down the barrier that has grown between you and gf1, get her talking, give her a bit of fuss?

Kudos to you for not going mad amongst all those people in your house!

Really, OP - your family is waaay too extended.

Agree with what everyone has said re the spare room, the baby needs it's own space, and so do it's parents.

I can't really add much but I wanted to say that you sound like a lovely MiL

Letting your children and partners and DGC live with you is extremely generous.

I'm sure, as others have said, GF1 has a jealousy issue with GF2, partly because she gets on with you so well, but more importantly because she had a longed for DC.

Things may sort out when she gets a LO of her own, but tbh I think you are right to try and sort them out now. I thought that our DC would bring me closer to MiL, but it has actually only made things worse.

I don't really have any great advice for you, but just wanted to wish you luck and hope this gets fixed.

Let us know how you get on.

What I see is that GF1 is desperate for love, attention and acceptance. She is probably hoping that having a child will be a gateway to all those things that's why she wants it so desperately. Especially when she sees your love to DGD, DS2 and GF2.

Eating disordered people are very, very difficult to have an honest relationship with. Having bulimia makes is hard to be honest because you know you will dissapoint people, you know that at times the disorder will be more important than a relationship (as it happened when GF1 cancelled the dinner last minute). One feels so desperate to be accepted and loved but on the other hand a close relationship is seen as a threat of exposure.

GF1 sounds depressed to me; depression and bulimia usually go hand in hand. Is she getting any treatment, is that what the hospital appointment was about? I think she might be very very unhappy with herself and angry with the whole world because I am pretty sure she realizes that one of the obstacles to a good relationship with you is her disorder and she might feel not in control of it.

Don't really know what to advise. Just wanted to sort of defend her as I've been through that sh* called bulimia and know that it can be an absolute nightmare for all involved. Having a baby is the last thing the GF1 should be thinking about, treatment should be the main focus.
Maybe try googling it, there are some good websites out there that can advise you how to be with someone who has an eating disorder. If you could give her support and understanding would be great but at the end of the day it's not your fault she has it.

well assuming there are no specific reasons why your dc are not in their own places and they're just trying to save money, I think you are being way too kind.
Your boys are taking the mickey, particularly ds1.
They're not behaving like adults trying to make a difficult situation work, they should be doing whatever they can to placate you. They're behaving like children and that's because they've never moved away from the family home. You will be doing them a huge favour encouraging them to leave.
As for GF1, well I'm sorry she's had problems, but honestly, give me a break...she's living in your home, thanks to the generosity of you and your dh. Having a flounce because the baby is getting some attention! please!
I wouldn't talk to GF1, I would talk to DS1. She is his responsibility, not yours! Give him a gentle nudge, if he doesn't like the situation, they can always get their own place.
This is your house, you are entitled to feel relaxed and comfortable there, not worrying about keeping the peace with 4 grown up children and a baby.

Although it may not be a good idea to actually say it I think you should keep the 'your house - your rules' thought at the back of your mind.

Certainly for issues such as the use of the now 'spare' room the decision on its use is entirely up to you.

With regard to the relationships between the DSs and the GFs - to a large extent they have to be left to sort this out themselves. You sound as if you are doing your best with GF1 and will continue to do so - you do consider her feelings but they don't have to take presidence over everything else.

In the long run I agree with others who have said that this will be best solved by your DSs finding homes of their own.

You sound great and like you're really trying hard. You get on well with GF2 so I don't think it's you. People with mental health issues/eating disorders/low self-esteem, however much it's not their fault, can be extremely hard work and nothing you ever do will satisfy them - that's in the nature of it, and until she gets professional help I don't think that will change.

For that reason, try not to assume you can fix it. I think it would be better to be slightly more detached, be polite, but do not engage with any crap and try not to partake in it. E.g. if she flounces, be matter-of-fact and calm about it and make yourself scarce for a bit. If she's jealous of your GDD, she's being ridiculous so don't apologise, just matter-of-factly say "of course GDD gets more of my attention, she's just a baby" - and so on. If you let GF1 make unreasonable demands on you she will take a mile, is my prediction, and you will find it hard to become less entangled with her.

You are doing great and this situation won't last for ever, so hang onto that.

Can I also point out what an immense blessing it would be to your other kids to have DGD in a room of her own?

We live in a one bed apartment (all we can afford) and have after nearly a year moved into the living room. We cannot share with DS anymore.

Since we have done so he now sleeps through the night, doesn't wake us up until 7am and is a perfect angel about going to bed without us. I know some people struggle to get this kind of behaviour, but it almost certainly won't happen whilst they have to share a room.

Even a 4 day visit with PiL is filling us with dread because we have to share a room again and every time we do DS keeps us up all night, then cries all day because he is tired. Sleep deprivation for new parents is awful, and allowing them to use the room as a nursery is sooooooo much more important to them than having a living room is to DS1/GF1.

They might kick up a fuss, but they really don't know what it's like until they have had their own child and you should tell them so.

First of all, you do sound like an extremely kind and understanding MIL
but i do agree with several other posts - you need to get your sons together and bang their heads together a bit - however close you get to your DILs they are still your sons and you will always be able to talk more frankly with them.
Tbh i think you are maybe being over-generous in having them all stay with you and that they could surely get their own places (as suggested by others) if there was no alternative. I say this as someone who was made very independent by my own parents from a young age which has stood me in good stead but i am not sure what i will be like when my kids are your age (probably a pushover! )
I just know that i have found my relationship with my MIL (who is wonderful btw) a whole lot easier since my dh learnt (through some wise counselling) that HE had to be the one who stood up to his mum on the occasions that we clashed and that he needed to be the main communicator with her (apart from anything else, she is always going to be more sympthetic to him than me!)because he was married to me now and had a responsibility to me to help me build good relationships with his family, not just leaving me to fend for myself.
All the best to you

First off, I wanted to say you sound like a wonderful, caring MIL

And I agree with (many) others who suspect DS1 may be part of the problem here - and the need for him & his GF to have their own space.

But I also agree with mozarela that it sounds like your DIL1 is just really wanting some attention, and love. So I personally would keep making overtures towards her. I have one slightly therapy sounding suggestion I once had a (lovely) boss - we just kept winding each other up & couldn't work out why. Eventually, we both sat down & filled in a questionnaire of all the things that we liked in interactions. It had start points like:

• When I'm feeling stressed, I like people to ...
• When people frustrate me I tend to ...
• I feel awkward when....

It was all very much about explaining yourself and your patterns of behaviour (ie not saying When you do x, it pisses me off). It really helped us talk about our different ways of dealing with things in an open and non-judgemental way (I was pleasantly surprised) and left us both with a blueprint of what each others priorities were/how to deal with them. Would she respond to that do you think??

Fairylights ooooh! do you think your DH would come and have a chat with mine? If only he could understand that.

Are any of them paying rent? helping around the house etc?

They're taking the p!ss tbh and you need to remind them the parents are boss, they're lucky for this temporary stay in the house and it isn't their house to get territorial about!

I think this thread shows all that is best about Mumsnet. A difficult situation, lot of options, ideas and experiences shared and no flames or shouts of troll by the usual suspects.

My contribution - I think you must be a saint [smile}. I would have been having short sharp conversations with at least two people well before now.

To start with, I really do think you're being wonderfully generous OP. Two other adult couples living with you...? Heck, no.

I think part of the issue you might be having here is 'pecking order'. A lot of what you've said comes back to your DS1 and his girlfriend clashing with others over things, feeling put out and claiming territory and I wonder of there isn't something very basic at the root of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but DS1 and GF1 are the actual older of the two couples, yes? Actually 'adults' whereas I think you said DS2 was still in his teens?

If this is the case, you were dead on right with the 'clashing antlers' comment because I think you might be coming up against what my mother calls the 'young brave' syndrome.

There seems to be a period, esp in men but in women, too, in their early twenties when they really fight for their independence as 'adults' and resent anything that threatens that 'status' because they aren't sure of it themselves.

Because they're stuck living with you, neither DS1 nor GF1 can really 'rule the roost' as they should be moving out to do and in the case of GF1, her previous issues and lack of self confidence will be compounding matters. They should be setitng up their own home, they're (possibly, if you give any credence to this theory) being pushed instinctively to want this autonomy, acknowledgement and authority and the respect that accompanies it from others, but they can't achieve it and it's brewing resentment.

Bad enough, anyway (and the reason for a lot of MIL/DIL clashes IMHO - including the issues I had with my own early on! Alpha female fighting!) but your situation is more complex.

Not only do your DS1 and his GF have to contend with an older couple (you and your DH) they have to contend with a younger couple in age who, actually, in societal terms are not younger.

DS2 and his GF already have a child. This puts them firmly into the class of 'adult' subconciously, esp if they're good/responsible parents. And this may be being reflected in the various relationships being built.

GF2 has a good relationship with you, she's confident, and has a child. She comes across as a grown up and that may be threatening for GF1. DS2 has stepped on his big brother's toes by making this leap into 'adulthood' first and, apparently, effortlessly.

In primitive terms, the aforementioned 'pecking order' has been disrupted and your DS1 is not reacting well to it, which is spilling onto GF1 (already struggling with her own self-identification) and then to everyone else. Look at the way GF1 wants to be acknowledged when she comes into the home. A child wouldn't show that behaviour, except with their closest relatives, but an adult would expect it from any other adult - and a young and uncertain adult would find it rude and possibly dismissive if they didn't get it - an acknowledgement that they're still a child.

Also see what happened when you went away - DS1 and GF1 immediately moved to establish themselves as the 'senior' couple, because they are 'older'.

Now, you've got the notion that the extra free space will be 'claimed' by DS2 for his child complicating things even further.

I'll freely admit that all this sounds a bit pop-psychology, but how many mum's hit issues with their teen/early twenties daughters, esp if both are strong-willed? How many sons have rough patches with their dads? Humans still have the pack instincts most animals have. Most of the time we can think our way out of them, but not always and especially not when emotions are running high. I know I clashed with my MIL far more often when I was spending time staying with her than ever afterwards.

There are no easy solutions to this, I'm afraid. The quick fix is for one or both couples to move out but that doesn't sound like an option. Time may fix some of it, but you could be right to think that, by then, your relations with GF1 will have soured beyond repair.

You could try spending time with just GF1 and asking her advice and input on things? Valuing her as an adult may ease the tension their. And get your husband to do the same with your son.

The other thing you might do (if they aren't already) is sit everyone down and discuss arrangements for them contibuting to the house i.e. paying rent, housework etc and possibly suggest that (if you think they could) DS2 pays a little more for having the use of the spare room for his daughter. If everyone is being treated like independant adults rather than dependant kids, you may ease some of the tension.

Don't know if any of that helps - and apologies for the length of the post!

Good luck!

*tension there. Not 'their'

And I re-read this, too.