Am I testing...I just don't know

[gonnabehappy]

I have this afternoon asked him to leave. We have had another dreadful weekend (my fault) and it is not fair on boys.

Taking them out - no idea what to expect when we get home. Don't even know what I want to find when we get home.

How do you work out what you really want? How do I know if I am 'testing' him (after giving him a crap time over weekend). How do I impose it when I am not sure. I just need some space and to go to bed without make up on.

Any

A good thought. I have asked him a few times over the past 10 months to move out for a month and give me (and him) some space to clear our heads and carefully consider a fresh start. He just replies he does not want to go. I will think carefully about your 'good thought' over next couple of days. I am not sure where he would go though.

guess (btw you are making my head spin with the names...[smile)

please listen to me

it is not your problem where he would go

how many times do you need to be told that ?

it has been said countless times on this thread (and the previous one)...he forfeited the luxury of being put first by you unconditionally when he shat on you, your love and your family

put yourself first

of course he doesn't want to go, he wants you to carry on making it easy for him

I have the feeling that he is (subconsciously, hopefully...) just hanging in there, not really making an effort and if he digs his heels in for long enough you will shut the fuck up and things will go back to the way they were with very little sacrifice on his part

he expects you I think, to "make a fuss and punish him a bit" for a while, then you can all forget this whole sorry episode

but now you know that you cannot

stop being a martyr to him and his wants/needs

you have been doing that for too long...and where the fuck has it got you ?

< takes deep breath >

sorry gonna, but your passivity is very difficult for me to understand

You think you have a prob with names - never mind depression; I am rapidly developing multiple personalities....

Martyr hmm that is what I call him to myself. Yes, you are right where he would go is not my problem...but it is very hard to persuade him to go.

I think you are right about him hoping I will just shut up - but I am a lot stronger than I was on those tablets and will not be walked over even as easily as I was last week.

Actually I wonder if he is so much of a coward he is pushing me to end it all - thus absolving him of all responsibility. You know the story; he tried, I could not hack it so kicked the poor man out separating him from his sons. Makes a good tale doesn't it?

I have put him first in so many ways for so many years. You would love some of the stories.

I waited in hospital for him to finish cricket before taking me and our newborn son number one home.

I flushed my baby (a miscarriage) down the loo. We knew it was happening so he took son number one to his mother's so he could play cricket. I was alone despite pleading.

I came home from hospital ill after a major op on a Friday. I was unable to look after the three boys - so had to get my sister to come round while he went to football.

I lost my career and a lot of confidence because my continuing to work interfered with his weekend sport.

I am reminding myself of all of these whilst thinking. See the kicking I am getting here is getting through even if I am not conveying it very well!!!

And, before someone says - what a shit, leave him - I have loved him for a long while and he has been such a good husband and father in many ways.

Ok am taking all my personalities to bed now. Exhausted.

Thanks for listening - and please keep talking. I really am trying to get through this with a little more dignity than I have displayed so far.

gonna, I don't know what to say other than get some rest, you and all your personalities

you have said it all yourself, and I would bet my last penny there are many more examples of how he has not been a good husband and father over the years

I truly don't understand what you are trying to cling on to

I am not sure either. but have been strong - have not let him into bed tonight. Little steps.

Hi

I have contacted a counsellor asking for help this morning. Not at all sure husband will come - and is it worth him coming if he is not keen anyway?

I am staying at a friend near work. I feel sick, I could go home tonight but I don't think I want to. Boys seem fine. Husband is I think pissed off with me. He is also spending a lot of time with my friend - the one he snogged last New Year's eve. Not sure how I feel about that though I sort f suggested it as she needs someone to go to solicitor with her about her divorce and I am not there.

I wish I could think in straight lines.

I've been following your recent posts and I think you need a big hug right now.
Go to the counsellor by yourself pet.
You need to look after yourself first now.
I think you have massive self esteem issues due to years of putting up with your H's awful behaviour.
I don't believe he is making any effort at all here and you cannot rescue your marriage on your own.
I know why you are so passive, deep down you feel completely unworthy of anything better. You have so little self-confidence left, the devil you know is better to you than the one you don't.
Talk to your counsellor, don't cover things up.
Use this opportunity now to really take stock of what you are trying to save.
He is not interested in making any changes obviously so it is up to you now to sort things out.
Perhaps you should make an appointment with a solicitor too?

New Name - I decided I wouldn't post again until you did something. You've done it - you've got away from him for a few days and you've contacted a counsellor. Now go and see that counsellor (promise?) and do it on your own. You don't need him there and I don't think he'd add any value to it.

Stay away for a short while longer. Hopefully the drug free you is now kicking back and seeing things more clearly.

I've often said on other posts that betrayed partners should do the maths. and work out whether an affair was truly aberrant behaviour or whether it was simply a continuation of selfish and abusive behaviour. Even if it works out that it was an aberration, the betrayer must do everything to make amends, restore trust and love and care for the person they have betrayed.

Based on what you've said, your H fulfils none of these criteria. He's always been a cruel, selfish git. His adulterous behaviour is hardly aberrant if he crossed the line with your friend, he has refused counselling, lied to you in the summer about contact with OW and failed to support you when you were dealing with a humanitarian crisis with your son's friend.

He has got no bloody right to be pissed off, but I sincerely hoped that your actions might make him finally wake up to the consequences of this behaviour. Instead, he is taking your bait (I wonder why you did that?) and is probably getting comfort from someone who is no friend of yours, or your marriage.

Try to look at this rationally for a moment - you have accepted really shitty treatment from him and your friend. One of the things I hope you will gain from counselling is that you'll never let anyone treat you so badly again.

I don't see any hope for this relationship, but I do see hope for you. I wish for you the strength to see that you WILL feel better without him as your partner. It will take enormous courage and willpower, but this man's marching orders are long overdue IMO.

Keep telling yourself, you are a good person, evidenced by the way you mother not just your boys, but all their friends. You have a great brain and although you can't seem to see it, you have a great future ahead of you.

new - thank you. I agree that self worth is an important issue. It feels like a circle. Maybe the counsellor will help me find a way out? I hope so.

When will - I knew you were pissed off with me and did not blame you.

My friend is in a bad way right now and did not have anyone to go to sols with as I was away. I felt so guilty for letting her down.

I just hope that the counsellor is OK. She is Relate trained and has written some articles for the Press that I like. Has to be worth a try! The only way I can pay for this is to give up my wine - I hope I can manage this too! I will go on my own unless husband really wants to come with me.

As for writing him off. You must all remember that this is only my side of the story and I have, for lots of reasons, been focusing on his bad points over the years. He is a lovely man, a fantastic dad and very attractive! I honestly think he has problems too. His family are extraordinarily judgmental and non-demonstrative. He has been bought up to be selfish. It does need to change but he is fundamentally a really decent man who has made some horrid mistakes. I also think he has been depressed. He is afraid of growing old and prime midlife crisis material. I do hope we can find each other again, I really do.

I am certainly not off to the solicitors just yet.

Sorry, some tough love here.

Of course we are only hearing your side of it. As you well know, I think some of your behaviours are unhelpful too. However, what I admire about you is that you agree to consider such observations and the counselling is to some extent, your way of confronting and dealing with it.

What you tell us about him is a mass of contradictions though. You produce evidenced examples of when he has put himself first every time - going to football when his wife and children needed him, even when you had miscarried FGS , his unnecessarily cruel behaviour during (and in addition to) his affair, snogging your drunk and vulnerable friend, refusing to talk, sulking when you're angry, lying to you - need I go on?

We just don't have any examples from you of when he has been "lovely" or a "fantastic Dad". Whether he's attractive or not is besides the point; physically he might be, but this level of selfishness, sulkiness and entitlement would be repellent to me.

You think he's got issues, blaming his selfishness on his upbringing, his fear of getting old, his depression etc. I've said this to you before, you often tell us what you think he feels. What does he actually think? Does he agree with your assessment? If so, what's he doing about it? My bet would be that you haven't really had this conversation and that if anyone asked him, he'd say that you're over-dramatic, hysterical and wishes you would just get on with life and have sex with him again.

For some reason, you still seem to believe that you will find a way back to eachother if only you change your thinking. Perhaps that's what he thinks too. However, unless he changes radically, I don't think a way back is possible, which is what your instincts have been telling you all along.

More to consider...

I have not heard back from counsellor!!!!! I know I am being impatient but I want to follow through now before I go back home. Arghhhhhh.

Just felt like a yell!

WhenwillI - interesting previous post. Just to add, my H had always had a big streak of selfishness, bullying and cruelty though was also intermittently very helpful and was always there for me if I needed him. However, the affair was the zenith of his crap side coming out (though he never did anything like newname's H).

Thankfully it was a massive wake up call to him about how self-destructive his bad side could be and he has totally changed. But you do need them to admit that and have that self awareness and willingness to change if you give them another chance. Because that's what it is - a chance to be equal or even put me first for once. The H here just seems to want a quiet life with no repercussions

Have counselling appt. Really scared, not sure why. Scared it may help; and I will not be able to find the money. Scared it may help me break up family, scared it may help me to keep family together. Scared that I will have look at all sorts of stuff that is long buried. Scared I will need to face up to what a cow I am. Appt is middle of next week. You have no idea how much I want to cancel already.

Going to go home today. Have been getting very supportive and loving messages from husband. I have missed him. Middle boy tells me he is planning on doing all the housework today (husband had to take time off work for me to come to work as middle boy is on long term sick at the moment). Going home to my beautiful home and boys - looking forward to it and dreading it.

Do I go back to hugging and kissing etc or keep myself detached? The boys pick up on lack of hugs - it is a very tactile house. They would definitely worry if we did not share bed tonight and no hiding it.

What a muddle.

Well I would make it plain that you do not want him to hang about with the friend he kissed - I am very shocked he thinks that's okay. I can see my H trying to crawl down the back of the sofa every time something about Tiger Woods comes on tv presently, so the idea your H would think it's okay to go anywhere near someone he has done the wrong thing with is plain weird. He should be far more concerned with what you think and far more willing to avoid causing ANY further worry for you. Housewrk is good, but he should be a lot more sensitive to your emotional needs. How would he feel if the situation were reversed?

I would put a 3 iron in his eyeline

I sent a long email yesterday - one theme was about how he would feel if confronted with OW every day and asking him to think how I fell being with him.

But...the word fuck was used I believe, he works for a Bank, and it appears to have been quarantined. Depp joy! Bet the boys in the back room are having a laugh.

Guess I have to laugh really!!

Lots of downs..a few ups. Back on tablets. Going to see counsellor tomorrow.Think husband coming too. Any words of advice?

It sounds to me like all he is depressed about is the fact that when push came to shove his OW didn't want him & now, to him it looks like you don't either!

He has had his cake & eaten a very large chunk of it & now it has been taken away.

Please stop thinking about what everyone else wants, I know the children are important, but so are you! They will be their happiest with happy parents, is this really making you happy!?

He choose her, she rejected him & now, because he cannot stand to lose everything through his own stupidity, he is hanging on for dear life.

I am so so sorry if this is the wrong thing to say, but ask yourself, "if the OW came into his life & offered to take him & his children as a package, what would he do?" If you believe he would go to her, then staying in this current situation is like living your life in someone else's shadows.

Can you do that for the rest of your life?

He says he would never go off with her - and I believe that. She did so much damage to us, albeit with his more than willing help.

If someone else came along. Not so sure.

I am getting increasingly scared of seeing counselor today. I just don't know what to say or think. Stomach churning stuff.

I want me to stop creating rows and making him feel guilt. Only when we have managed a period of relative clam do I think we will both be in a position to consider the future. It is control that is the first thing I think.

Be guided by the counsellor. Everything will probably all come out anyway and these counsellors are pretty intuitive and will pick up on the dynamics of the relationship.

I had to look at myself a lot. I had an individual session and the rest were joint. My DH and previous H put me through an awful lot and one of the first things the therapist said to me that I had to decide how much I was prepared to put myself through in the name of "love". I was allowing them to treat me like that and I had to draw a line. DH knows that now if he reverted to previous behaviours, I would be gone like a shot .....

Good luck and give yourself a couple of hours afterwards to feel utter, utter crap. You have to process what has been discussed, brought up etc.

Asked about childhood's and families. He presented his as normal happy etc, mine was dysfunctional with an alcoholic father and some DV. Now it feels as though our relationship being crap was the result of my childhood, the affair was the result of me being crap at relationships, and my inability to cope since...well you get the picture. I am sure this was not the intended outcome but oh boy do I feel bad.

I find it hard to believe that his childhood was that "happy". Most people couple up with people of similar backgrounds and similar emotional baggage from childhoods. He may not have had an alcoholic parent or DV but there were probably some dysfunctional relationships in there IYSWIM.

You are probably feeling bad because you are having to confront your childhood and facing up to what it was really like. I found that part hard to cope with, I could and did kid myself that my childhood wasn't that bad but, in fact, it was awful. And I did pick up on the fact that my parents had an appalling relationship (my dad was an abusive drunk). Is he going to have an individual session ? And think over what the counsellor said, I'm sure it wasn't all directed at you ? How did he justify the affair ? That is the behaviour of an immature man.

If he is not going to face up to his part in the relationship breakdown then I think you really are going to have to call time on the marriage for your own self-esteem and sanity.

Newname - does this counsellor specialise in dealing with infidelity? It's one of the questions I'd ask. I'd also suggest some sessions for both of you on your own.

The usual starting point for counsellors is to hear what catalyst has brought the couple to this point and at some point in that first session, they get some briefish details about family backgrounds. Sometimes there are clues to our later behaviour in our childhood, but sometimes there aren't. This is just scoping at the moment.

Counsellors know that people in denial (like your H) have a habit of describing their childhoods as normal and happy. If you admitted yours wasn't, she's not going to think "Aha! He's been unfaithful because she had a bad childhood." She's probably keeping an open mind.

Look at it this way. An over-indulged child might in adulthood, describe their childhood as blissfully happy - because they got everything they wanted. However, if that spoiled child grows up to be a narcissistic, selfish adult with a huge sense of entitlement, the childhood might have actually been unhealthy.

My Fathering sounds similar to yours - but if anything, it made me much more independent. I made a decision very early on in life that I wouldn't be a victim. For me, there is no link whatsoever between my H's infidelity 24 years into our marriage and my Father's violent alcoholism. That's because of the way I led my life in the intervening years - making my peace with Dad and enjoying a good relationship with him later on in life. The only link I can see between my childhood and my adult choices is that it was unlikely I would have tolerated DV and alcoholism in a partner.

I'd give some thought to some solo sessions and see how you feel after the second couples session too - but don't be afraid to go to a different counsellor if you think she's a bad fit.

Also, don't view the counselling as stand-alone help. The sessions should generate more honest discussion between you and your H.

And don't expect the impossible - you say you want to stop making him feel guilty - but in my view, he has never felt guilty enough. Question yourself about that - I suspect you do want him to feel guilty and that is fair enough.

Counting, this was really an assessment meeting. He did not justify anything, it was essentially descriptive. He asked me if my childhood was really that bad. I replied that I really did not know, at the time it was just what I did. However, he has made it quite clear that people who are unable to cope with difficulties, for example people who take ADs, smoke when they would like to stop, and yes, those sad folk who need a counsellor are somewhat weak.

Whenwill. The counsellor was great. She is a very experienced ex-relate counsellor. She is well respected in her field and is quoted frequently in the press; and I like what she says. She is directive and frank. She thought we had a very good chance of being happy together if we were both prepared to work at our relationship.

Clearly she did not even hint that my having a tough childhood resulted in my husband having an affair! Instead the thought was that this made it harder for me to deal with. She said little but I could see her notetaking about self esteem etc.

I think she is OK and intend to start with her in the New Year (she has two weeks off over the holidays and prefers to do weekly sessions at least to start with). The possibility of individual sessions has not been raised as yet. On the whole I do want my husband to understand how crap I feel (maybe because I want him to keep on hurting and feeling guilt? Perhaps whenwill, it is all so muddled I genuinely find it very hard to sort out what I really think/want). I also want to know how he feels.

Just need to try very hard to keep things smooth for a few weeks over Christmas, two weeks to go and I have not given a thought to any presents. Going to have a quiet day and jolt into action tomorrow. The floors here are vile - a spot of hoovering required today I think.