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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How can I get on with other women?

62 replies

newMNer · 04/10/2009 22:46

Hi. Sorry this is long, and I'm quite new to this site.
I've have struggled with this all my life and I feel constantly 'gutted' that I just can't seem to 'fit in'.
I'm, as a lot of men say, very female, although I do have a logical mind. I'm not hugely expressive when it comes to emotions, but I do deeply feel them, and empathise with others massively.
I think my issue could be to do with the fact I had no mother and only brothers, and I had no other females in my life. I then went to college and was the only girl on my course. I was one of two girls on my Uni course (she was very popular, I wasn't!) and then every job I've had, I've been the only female.
I do try to get on with women, but I can honestly say, there are no women in my life who I can call and go for a drink with. I see others meet and form friendships with each other, but I just seem to be left at the small talk stage, and sometimes it degrades into nothing at all and I'm ignored.
I do think there's something wrong with me, but I just don't know what. It's really getting me down as I feel very alone. I have some male friends, but when they get married or heavily involved in a relationship, I understandably get pushed aside. For some reason a lot of people think you're sleeping with men when you're just friends with them.

Anyway, I'm getting very down now about it. I have 3 children, including a baby and I spend every single day, evening and night alone, when my partner's not here, which is a lot. Yet I'm a friendly, sociable person and very much interested in a lot of things women are.

My brothers live far away and I still feel very much like a stranger to this town, after being here 9 years.
I don't want to be this alone for the rest of my life, but I also don't want to seem desperate! I just want to belong to a social group, and would love to be able to fit in with other women. Any advise would be great. If not, then at least I've got it off my chest for today.

OP posts:
Buddy80 · 07/10/2009 13:55

You sound so much like me its untrue! I come accross and strong and capable (didn't have much of a mother figure to teach me these tips and tricks!), but it hurts deeply. Will post more later.....

Btw, you sound like you would be make someone a great friend,at the end of the day its their loss. These types get the friends they deserve.

OlderNotWiser · 07/10/2009 14:11

Oh this is completely me too. I have been gutted by my inability to make friends for years now. I've concluded over time that there are a number of issues going on for me, maybe you may recognise aspects of them?

  1. I am socially insecure so find it hard to make small talk, yet I put on a very convincing facade of confidence and can come across as over bearing
  2. I am a long term sufferer of depression and whilst I am mostly fine, I do go thro phases of being anti social. I am fairly sure I turn up at pre school all smiles one day and all gloom the next, refusing to make eye contact etc. All of which must make it hard to know how to approach me
  3. I also dont feel I fit in. I live in a hugely middle class area, am in fact hugely middle class myself really, but just dont feel it or relate to it. Have been skint for most of my life, tough-ish upbringing etc but have worked hard plus fallen on my feet and its all worked out. But still cant relate to the life I am living IYKWIM. I cant talk hand bags or private school, just isnt me. So I dont relate to many of the women around here either, even tho I also realise I am making assumptions etc etc!!

Excuse the waffle, Im getting there..! What has helped me:

  1. I have a socially very skilled female friend (god knows how I got to be her mate!) and I frequently try to imagine what she would do or say in social situations, to help me try alternatives or simply think of soemthing to say
2.I really force myself out of my comfort zone lately..I WILL make those women at the school gate talk to me or smile back! In fact I have made some progress here...I have realised they've not been ignoring me, I've just somehow made myself invisible until now. Body language..?
  1. I am going to join the PTA this year since being unavoidably thrown together is the best way to have regular contact with people, and over time they do realise Im not as odd as I might at first appear!
4.Finally, to an extent I have accepted I dont make good friends that easily or often, but that when I do its for keeps. After working on this issue for many years now, I have finally made a new friend! She is, interestignly, somewhat like me ie not a girlie girl, bit abrupt on meeting etc so perhaps we recognised kindred spirits!

Actually, as an after thought, I have ditched a few of the users over the years...just decided one day Id rather have no friends than crap friends and sometimes resolve like that kind of helps you on your way...and lets face it, one sided friendsship can be just as lonely as none at all.

Sorry its such a long reply, its something I've struggled with so was compelled to waffle! I hope some of it is helpful, and good luck.

sugardumpling · 07/10/2009 15:03

I'm so glad I found this thread! Again this all sounds like me! I am quite girly in the way I look but mostly I'm a bit of a geek and most women that I know don't seem to "get" me. I also totally agree with Buddy80 about it being "us" and not "them".

ElenorRigby · 07/10/2009 18:07

As others have said you are not alone!

I'm a "tom" boy who has learned to look girly but really don't fit in with what a lot of women seem to believe and/or like.

I work almost of exclusively with men doing a "blokes" job, they are great bunch to work with!
Socially I have many male friends who are lovely, sensitive and funny, don't see them much these days due to being in baby prison. DD is 2 now so will make be able to the effort to escape!

I think the world of my dad and also have two older brothers.

I have a very few sorted female friends and acquaintances. I also have a wonderful sister! Sadly due to circumstances I see all of them too little and none are in my life weekly.

I am a walk the walk equality feminist who respects men if they are worthy of respect and friendship.

By walk the walk I mean I am up to doing traditional male tasks (like I do in work) but conversely my man is able to cook, clean etc which he does.

I find many women cant relate to my thinking and they don't relate to me.

I am not greatly bothered. I only could want to really know similar people be they men or women.

mamhaf · 07/10/2009 18:38

Hi all,

This sounds a bit like me. I work in a mainly male environment, but I'm much better at making and keeping female friends now - and I think that's because over the years I have found women friends with similar interests.

Not all the same interests, but my husband doesn't share all my interests either.

So, female friend A might be someone I go to yoga with, B will be someone I'll call for a night at the cinema, C is someone who might want to go for a run. And sometimes we'll get together for a DVD, pizza and wine.

I agree that finding people on the same wavelength and who share interests is an excellent idea - is it possible, OP, that you could join some sort of sport club, or another hobby that really interests you?

Once you've found them, take the initiative and invite them to go and do something linked to the hobby - personally that's why I find playing sport is so good - you can ask if they would like a game of whatever the sport is.

And don't overlook gay men either - I have a couple of gay male friends who are superb company.

newMNer · 08/10/2009 07:23

Hi all, sorry if I've not replied too much to specific posts - been v tired. Baby wakes for a night feed and I don't get back to sleep. Thanks for all your comments and I don't mind the thread becoming about us, rather than just me! so feel free to hijack. I'll respond to individual posts later - if baby gives me a minute.

mamhaf, just read your post. I can't join a club or anything that's on a regular basis on the same night, right now. I've even had to order a home learning course as I can't attend (which I'd have preferred to do). I could go out now and then if I had female friends, as my partner's home a few nights each week (not the same each week though). So evenings out could be arranged no problem. Also, people can come over to my house, or I could take my baby to their's, as there are two evenings when both my older kids stay with their dad, so it's just me and the baby.

I think the normal way to meet like-minded people is out for me right now. Maybe when my baby's 3yrs+ it'll be easier as my ex said he'd have her sometimes, so she's with her siblings or my partner's parents might look after her (they've hardly spent any time with her so far) and it'll be easier to find a regular baby sitter, as my LO will be able to let me know if she's happy or not with them. But in the meantime, not really sure.

I don't mind who I meet really, it's just I was having particular problems getting women to want to know me.

I have a long term male friend who I hardly see now since he was married. His wife's lovely and I think they're a perfect match, so glad for him. But, we get together only a couple of times a year now. My other male friend lies to his wife when he sees me (so I discovered recently) so I'm not keen! He's a good friend, but I don't see why he should lie. But also I understand that some women are not keen on sharing their men, even if it's totally innocent. Another male friend met a girl last year and a few months later, she betted him £200 that he'd had/have sex with me - I don't see him much now either. Another one, I realised did want to 'go out with me' and when I said I wasn't keen (in a sensitive way!) he didn't bother with me as much. I've had similar experiences throughout my life with male friends. So, I was thinking it would be better if I were 'normal' OK what's normal? but, be able to hang out with other women would be a start. As said though, I haven't the first idea how to 'fit in' with them and I don't have the ability to go meet like-minded ones in a club or class, etc.
But just to be able to get on better with the locals would be a good start, because then my daughter wont be blatantly excluded too.
So I'll practice my facial expressions, and try to work out what women like to talk about. I haven't a clue, it's a learning curve.

OP posts:
newMNer · 08/10/2009 07:26

Oh by the way, I'd happily arrange a meetup, but I live in East of England - right on the coast (near Ipswich). Anyone else live out that way?

I did join a friends site one year and I think I was the only one on it near where I live, whereas places like Cambridge had loads of people, so they could easily arrange meetups and make friends.

OP posts:
newMNer · 08/10/2009 07:38

oh and when I say I don't mind who I meet, sorry, what I meant was I'm 'open minded' about their sexual preferences, as it doesn't really matter when you're talking of friendship - so yeah, I'm up for meeting gay men or gay women.

OP posts:
NestaFiesta · 08/10/2009 10:17

I've a similar problem but mine is to do with shyness and "will they like me?". I suspect the OP is afriad of not being liked and is out of her comfort zone. It took me 39 years to find that the following things work:

I know its old hat but try this- ask people lots of open ended questions about themselves and listen intently to them. People love that and are usually much more interesting than you think when you scratch the surface. Also- just being really friendly and smiley makes people feel comfortable around you. They're not thinking about the content of your chit chat- they just know whether you make them feel comfortable or uncomfortable. "I like your top/earrings/umbrella" is always a good opener.

purpleflower · 08/10/2009 10:31

I'm very similar. I really struggle to make friends. I also have 3 older brothers and lost my Mum when I was 13. I've been the same as long as I can remember.

I'm only really close to my cousin now. I did have a really good friend for 8 years but recently when I needed a bit of help and support from her rather than the other way round she disappeared

I don't like going to babygroups etc as I get very, very shy. I'm not very good with big groups of people.

I am kind of near you newMNer, I'm north essex. Ipswich is easy for the train from here

mummee09v · 08/10/2009 10:39

odearyme - another leicester person! yay! lol. where in leicester do you live, message me if you fancy meeting up??

newmner - i hope all the replies have made you feel a bit better about things! have you tried joining the mumsnet local site for your area, if there is one? coz they have meet ups and things, maybe you could try and get to one??

whitecloud · 08/10/2009 10:51

Thank you, newMNer for raising this subject. There seem to be several of us feeling the same thing. I find the bitchiness of groups of women very hard to deal with - have always found groups difficult and have also had the experience of people talking about their social arrangments in front of me when I wasn't invited. I suppose I just think it's a bit rude to do that, but maybe they subconsciously use it to cement their little group. I think if you don't like gossip, you can feel like an outsider.

Also, if you have been through a traumatic time, like your divorce, it makes you feel more alone and vulnerable. I have lost both my Mum and Dad in the last two years and feel very alone, because my brothers don't live near and my family just don't feel wthat I am feeling. It can be really hard if you are within a group and everyone else is happy and you are feeling rough. OlderNotWiser, I think it's true that people can avoid you if you are feeling depressed. You can feel that others are more superficial and you are on a different planet from them at those times. (Although how can we ever know what others are feeling deep inside?) Also, you have all highlighted the fact that you just can't go out and do what you want when you are responsible for children. I really envy childless people just for that becuase they can go out and do what they want freely. I think it's harder to make friends as you get older as well.

Thank you all for raising this. It is a relief to feel that I'm not the only one. I admire those of you who have got involved and have been brave enough to keep going even when people have taken advantage or dropped you once they are OK. I find it really hard to do that - seem to spend a lot of time alone. Having said that, I am going to a WI meeting next week! Am very nervous, but feel I have to keep trying to meet people. I just feel some of us are sensitive and fear rejection, which makes all this a lot harder. Best of luck to all of you - am grateful to have read and joined in with this thread!

P.S. - newMNer - if this is any comfort - my dd had a very difficult patch in early junior school because she was put in a different class from her friends. One girl was really nasty and then was OK again! By the end of juniors and first part of secondary school it was fine. Hope things come right for your dd.

Uriel · 08/10/2009 10:56

I can relate to this too. My mum lost her mum when she was a young child, then her dad brought her and her brother up. She was never particularly girly or had girly mates.

Feel I've missed out on having a more girly time, brought up in a house with quite a male vibe, iyswim.
I've a couple of good friends, but miss the easy chit-chat which every other woman seems capable of!

newMNer · 08/10/2009 12:56

It's odd isn't it? You definately don't want anyone else to suffer or have problems, but at the same time, you feel better when others do, but then you also feel bad for them!

I hope that raising this has allowed others, as it has me, to get something quite deep out of their system. But even better if we can work out some steps to take to improve the situation. There have been some really helpful suggestions here, but just writing has made me think more positively about it and it's not not just a mushed up mess of a problem in my head. I'm still not entirely sure about what steps to take, and I wouldn't know exactly what to advise others either.

Will I still be helpful and advise I was asked? Yes I think so, but I'll be more careful about it and I wont do it from the very start and run to everyone and anyone's aid. I think I'm just that sort of person deep down. I don't think it's because I want to be liked though. But I've learnt over the years that it can cause more harm to relationships than good in some cases, especially when you realise that's the role you've given yourself, so that's how they see you (and some then use you!). No use feeling upset when you've effectively 'sold yourself' as someone to be used I guess! It's like those people who get promoted at work, who are clearly useless at their work. But, they're mouldable, easy to manage, etc., whereas you're such a good worker, they need you exactly where you are - at the bottom of the ladder, working. Mmmm, I think that's something to work on. So while they're all arranging social events, but struggling with baby sitters, don't go putting yourself forward for that. Yes it does look like you're trying to be liked, wanting others to think you're wonderful and so helpful. But, I think with me it does go deeper, as I brought up my baby brother (9 yrs younger), the others are closer to my age, and I always put him first, so I naturally from a young age sacrifice things I want, and want to do, for others. There's more examples of that too!

I like the suggestion about talking about them, not yourself. I don't always talk about me, sometimes never. But, I've realised something I do, and others do, that can be quite annoying, and am embarrassed to admit it actually, but might be helpful, so I will. Why not - I've told all you guys my life-long problem! I don't mean to do it though - but when someone says they've done something, seen something, etc., and you say, "yes, I've done that too" and "I've seen that too", etc., and if you're not careful you end up talking about your experience rather than what they were about to say. That's not just applicable to women of course. But, if a mum at school tells you they've been up all night with baby, you don't immediately say "yeah I was too". Even though you've not slept for weeks, you're supposed to listen sympathetically and talk about their tiredness. I think I've had every problem under the sun the last few years, so maybe I've done that! I think I relate to so much of the bad stuff that people have experienced, but they didn't start telling me about it, to hear that it was the same or 'worse' for me. Just a thought! I don't know for sure, I could just be talking rubbish here. Oh but don't worry about doing it here! Actually, I do often realise part way through and try quickly to switch back to them. Despite this, I am a good listener.

Also, about the depression, or being down, yes, I've been in that mode where everything everyone's doing and saying seems so trivial and superficial and it's very difficult to relate to them. I often can't switch off which makes it worse. You feel like you're standing with a thick piece of foggy glass or one-way mirror between you and other people. You can hear them all, but you're not really with them and in some cases they can't see you. I suppose you just have to accept that during those times, making friends or managing a new friendship is not going to be easy.

I'm waffling, because this is the only chance I've had to post, so I'm putting what comes into my head down. Baby's waking now - not surprised with next door banging on the paper thin walls so loudly, and a man sanding the walls in my son's bedroom - very noisy here right now!

What do others think they might do to put people off? I'll try think of more, as it might be useful to work out what we could be doing and try to consciously stop. It might be we could get on perfectly well with other women if we just didn't do those things. Who knows?

OP posts:
Buddy80 · 08/10/2009 16:38

Hi all,

You all sound wonderful , but it's still focussed on getting the person to 'like' you. Just different tactics.

Realising this for myself, what about them liking me? What about chosing whether to like them or not?

I think thats the difference between some types of friendships and relationships. Just thinking out loud, how about being respectful of others boundries, being pleasant yourself and well-mannered and then seeing? If people like you, they will.

I agree about getting people to talk about themselves (and a very famous book has suggested that). It does work. But, in my experience, its hard to switch that off, and you can open yourself up to being the one who always listens, the one who doesn't feel they have anything worthy or interesting to say. It also can come accross (unless you are a great listener) as being nosey and overkeen.

We should be a bit kinder to ourselves. IMO (and its just that) most great friendships are a luck. You meet at the right time, under the right circumstances, when the both of you are in the right 'emotional' place and then a sequence of events keeps it going. By all means try with different people (bit like dating - LOL) but its not always our fault if it doesnt happen IYKWIM

This thread is great, i'm learning a lot, and how hard it can be, and one of the posters is so right - rather have no friends than crap friends

Buddy80 · 08/10/2009 16:42

Also (on high-horse), don't necessarily believe that everyone else is having great friendships, very popular, etc.

Some people are very skilled at doing their own 'PR'.

Yes, there are lots of folks out there who may have great friendships, etc. But these could have been carried on from school, etc.

Just so hard not to be oversensitive to outward appearances.

WOW - easy to write down, eh? Another to tell myself

OrmIrian · 08/10/2009 16:45

Same her newmner.

I get to small talk stage and have plenty of people I get on with but it rarely goes beyond that. Used to upset me but now but I've just accepted it. And after 44 years I do have one or two good female friends that have stuck around - but they tend to be a bit more 'male' like me and not terribly girly iyswim.

womblemeister · 08/10/2009 18:19

in reply to OP's qu. about what might put people off, I think it's more a question of what you/we DON'T do rather than anything we are actually doing.

However OP I think you and many of the other posters on this thread - including myself - may share a definite tendency to over-analyse things which can be offputting because we may not come across as relaxed.

I think that forming friendships with women is like forming a relationship with a husband or partner - you have to go outside of your comfort zone, be prepared to take risks and put yourself on the line. If you ask, you often get. For example asking people v. casually to go for a coffee or to come round in the afternoon so their kids can play with yours.

But be prepared for rejection - the way they reject will tell you a great deal about whether they were actually worth bothering with in the first place. I've invited someone's kids to my party only to have them, almost literally, slam the front door in my face. Her kids played with mine every single day at school, I tried speaking to her several times yet she would never speak to me and there was absolutely no reason. So some people are just not worth bothering with at all.

newMNer · 09/10/2009 15:50

OK, I think I see what you mean about being liked. My sleep-deprived brain is not thinking too well right now!

Buddy, I'm as you suggest with my relationships with men. I just be 'me' from the start, I don't act or try to impress. It means I tend to filter out most men who I'm just not right for, which is good. But I think because I've found women more difficult to get along with, and I'm happy to hang out with people of all types really, yes I'm trying to analyse why I find myself in this position and what to do. But yes, maybe it's best to just accept I'm not most women's cuppa tea and just carry on being 'me'. If that means I get excluded a lot, well like you say womblemeister and OlderNotWiser it's best to have no friends than crap friends.

It's like the concept of not looking for a boyfriend, and being happy with yourself, etc., and that being when you meet someone. Well, maybe it's best to stop looking for friends and just be happy to be me, have my kids, my partner (who I rarely see tho) and stop thinking about it and just get out and about.

Because like you've said it is ME, US (referring to all posters in this thread), and obviously it's best to be ME, accepting I just don't tend to fit in with most women in the playground, or at baby groups. Although, I'll still go along and be friendly and like someone said about respect, respect them for who they are and hopefully be respected for who I am. I just thought maybe I was lacking some social interaction skills related to women, due to having so little experience with them. I just thought I needed to develop the skills.

I don't believe in acting or trying to impress, so I wont start doing that to make friends. But I will put effort in. I agree, rejection has to be accepted, especially when you realise you are not on the same wave length as a lot of women - it's no-one's fault really.

My partner's working nights the next four nights and sleeps most of the following day, plus he's worked very long days the last two (so I hardly see him) and tomorrow day/night my ex has my two older kids. Now if I had a babysitter, I could go out and have a lugh and joke with a group of girlies. But, as I don't know any to hang out with, I'll do my Maths course, and watch some crap TV while baby sleeps.

Feel free to add me to your Mates list. Though I'm not sure how it works. My list is empty right now - being quite new to this site - that's my excuse. I've a photo there too. I'm happy to chat for longer and longer, as I'm a sociable person and each day I think of something new, or someone else might, and if there's anyone local(ish) maybe we could end up meeting up. There seems to be a few from Leicestershire area too - maybe you guys could end up meeting up. Bit far for me though, pity!

By the way, has anyone done the keirsey/Myers Briggs personality test before? There are some online. Interesting to see if we have similar profile. Not that I believe in putting people into boxes/categories, but it's quite a good profiling system.

Happy weekend to you all. Thanks again to all those who've replied to my post. All of the posts have been very helpful and I hope we can chat more. There hasn't been any of the aggression I've read on some threads. It's been lovely.

OP posts:
Buddy80 · 09/10/2009 16:37

NewMNr - you sound like a great person. I would be happy to chat.

Would I need to be added to a list?

I have no clue how to contact people on MN or about a Mates list....

Hullygully · 09/10/2009 17:27

NewMNer- I have read all this thread and I want to say something that I hope you won't mind me saying, because it really is intended to help. When I came to your post that said

Thanks for all your comments and I don't mind the thread becoming about us, rather than just me! so feel free to hijack.

I did immediately think oh dear, she is thinking like a man, and that's why she finds it hard with women, because a woman wouldn't see it as hijacking, but empathising. When women talk about their experiences, (having FIRST offered sympathy) they are showing understanding, whereas men do the whole hijack competitive anecdote thing.

I think you recognise this because you do say later that you need to listen more and not jump in with your experience, and I think if you really persevered with that, you might find communicating with women a lot easier. HTH.

newMNer · 09/10/2009 17:44

HullyGully, no i understand your observation and sometimes i do think like a man. But this time i was using forum speak - I've seen it used all over the place - ppl apologising for not sticking to advising OP and talking about their own experiences. My posts (essays) are so long I didnt explain. Empathising is something I do to extremes, so understand. I guess I was more thinking about the fact I was talking too much about ME and I'm not very comfortable with it, despite writing all these essays and starting this thread. So, I was sort of inviting people to talk about them instead :-) without specifically saying it.

OP posts:
Buddy80 · 09/10/2009 17:52

HullGully, I agree to an extent, but the comment about hijacking threads is one I would have used as well

But, it's a really good observation by HillGully, and brings it back to whether you are looking to make good friends (who know the 'real you') or just get on with other women in general. The latter may give you more confidence, etc.

For me, personally, it cannot harm to get along with others but, not to compromise yourself totally. Tough one!

Hullygully · 09/10/2009 18:00

Okay. Well, really hope it all works out for you.

sugardumpling · 09/10/2009 18:17

totally agree Buddy80, do wonder if some of us have more seemingly "male" personality traits and therefore why we seem to get on with them better?