need some help seeing wood for trees and deciding what to do next

[EvenBoringMyselfNow]

I need some help seeing wood for trees and finding a way think about the future

we've married 8 y together 18 (gulp!) - 2 kids (7&4)
some issues over the years, mostly wabout wanting kids/not wanting kids. both very happy we have them now, tho they do put strain on relationship at times. both work and get quite stressed. DH currently very stressed over work, has been in some shape or other for past x years, quite bad for last year.

Over the years his libido has been quite low compared to mine. I used to try to instigate sex but be rebuffed so I gave up about 6 years ago as it was getting quite depressing and not doing the old self -esteem much good. Then abut a year and a half ago I decided to give it another whirl, bought sexy undies etc and ravished him in the kitchen on valentines night. He seemed to enjoy that. But when I tried it again seemed quite bored. So after a few tries I stopped making that effort too. Now we have fairly stratighforward one up one down sex when he wants it which is about twice a month. He often doesn't orgasm.

He drinks a lot which I am sure is a major factor in this.

I am on ADs for depression and have been for 2 years now.

Last year we went for couples counselling. Was not much use tbh. During the counselling period we went out one night and got quite inebriated and DH said lots of stuff about how he fancied other women etc etc etc - nothing wrong with that per se - he also said he wanted to have sex with other women. Hmm. Next day he "confessed" to a one night stand with some woman at a conference. I felt like I'd been slapped in the face with a wet fish given that he was never that interested in sex with me. When I would ask him about us staying together he claimed he wanted to (after a couple of months thinking about it) but he always says you can't tell the future and so nothing is definate for ever. I used to find this very difficult to take but in the last year have thought about uncertainty and impermanence A LOT (read Pema Chodron if that means anything to you and began to really appreciate that of course NOTHING is certain, apart from NOW)

We went on from there, decided to stay together after he'd slept in the spare room a while. I thought he would start to make more of an effort after that but he didn't really. I totally stopped making an effort wrt "moments of intimacy" at this point. We still have sex about twice a month, when he hasn't had too much to drink

He still gives me a kiss morning and evening but I can't be bothered anymore tbh. Most of my physical affection goes on the kids now.

I am going away for a few days on my own this weekend and I know I'll be mulling over all of this. I felt it was fair to have a chat with him before I went and let him know how I am feeling. We rarely talk about any of this stuff as it makes him too tense and stressed and it is never really worth it. I have mentioned a couple of months ago that certain stuff was causing me problems still and he admitted he hadn't been great and said he didn't want to talk about it anymore but that his actions would speak louder than words. So I shut up again.

Well, he took the kids out to library that day and did something else nice with them but there have been no efforts at intimacy with me since

Last night I opened up to him. I told him how I am feeling, how I felt quite disappointed that after all the fuss last year and him admitting the fling he hadn't made more of an effort, how I didn't feel any great intimacy or desire between us anymore. He claimed that his outbursts last year were not his responsibility, that he had been an equal victim of the therapy as I had. He has also in the past claimed that the one night stand was not his responsibility (apparantly it was rainging and the co-delegate couldn't get a taxi and so had to sleep with him) I told him how I've worked hard on myself this year on dealing with my need for security and certainty and I feel much better equipped to deal with that now but that I was just getting no real sense of desire or intimacy from him. I told him I feel that he is just not taking responsibility for stuff but leaving it all for me to decide as then he can get away with just dealing with MY DECISION and having to bear none of the responsibility for it. I also told him that I feel his primary relationship is with booze rather than me. At this point he talked about me reading too many self help books (I don't - I've been reading quite a few books on buddhism and spirituality of late, and on taking responsibility for oneself but no "men are from mars, women..venus" type stuff) and asked whether I had been talking to soemone about this stuff in the last few days. He doesn't like the idea that I discuss our relationship with anyone else. Although I have been quite clear that I do talk, to my counsellor and to my sister and another friend. I'd have gone doolally by now if I didn't.

He ummed and ahhed. In the end I just asked whether he did desire me and whether he did want to stay with me. He said nothing. For about ten minutes. He ummed and aaahed audibly, said "oh fucking hell" quite a bit to himself, and said nothing. Then he said something about sometimes not being able to just answer questions straight off. He talked about the fact that silence could be construed as an answer and that this would be the wrong conclusion to jump to. He always does this, talks about the meta-narrative of "our" (my?!) discussions rather than the content.

What the fuck do I do? basically I think I need to wake up and smell the coffee. There is no desire or intimacy left here, there probably hasn't been for some time. He won't make any decision about things. Some day some apparantly more attractive woman will fall for him and he for her and that'll be it. I think if any other woman he felt attracted to offered a shag he'd go for it (depending on time of day and how much he'd had to drink of course, if too much he'd be no use)

He doesn't even help much around the house, though he claims he does. He does do a lot of drop offs of the kids to school though, so I can go to work early.

What do I do? Am I mad to put so much importance on desire/intimacy/closeness? At least 3 of my women friends husbands don't want sex much either and one of them is like me, she has given up. She said it is too awful to have to basically beg for sex. She is drop dead gorgeous too. They keep going though. IS this normal. Do I put up with it and just continue to live my own life with him on the periphery (which is where he is heading at the moment)

any advice or shared experience so so welcome, feel I am at the end of my tether (again)

(Sorry is so long, have just looked again - bloody hell - well done if you got to the end)

Even,
Our partners are twins, and you have been very strong in putting things on paper.

I am afraid but if I take it from my experience it can get worth, each of you will retrieve to corners were no hope of communication can be found again. I no longer have sexual intercourse with my partner and I realise that I bl*y should have listened to his ex-partner who said that he was totally oblivious to anything around him. We have a very pleasant amicable relationship now but last month I woke up and suddenly realised that I no longer loved him. But I can also see that it will take me a year or two to admit to myself that we will split (without kids I would have already done it). Have you got this feeling of knowing love is gone? This should guide you as I think that you might have felt that way for a while.

Reading from all the threads here I think that you will find that leaving him IS the answer and will free you from a huge weight holding you down. This situation is extremely vicious as uncounsciously your partner is leading you to loose faith in yourself: you're not just drained, you keep in bumping into a wall that will never ever move. Sometimes, perhaps, you even wonder whether it's you the problem. Dangerous path that is, no wonder you're on AD, I really feel for you.

I know it's probably difficult to see right now but you seem to be a very deep person with loads of qualities. Remember the "old-you", take a look at old pictures, visit friends, decisions will follow.

Hoping you the best.

Even - he's not going to face up to things - his delaying tactics are a way of burying his head in the sand and denying you your right to speak.....

Re. bad timing - well, there's never a GOOD time to talk about things like this. You can't have your life put on hold because of someone else's denial/timetable.

Are you able to give any more detail about this "dispute"? I think that you'll find that the problems you've been having with your DH may very well be the same ones (in a business context) that his employers have been having with him too.......

Hope you're OK this morning, though.

fluxy3 and donotknow so sorry to hear you both are in similar situations - it is very hard isn't it. I feel stronger now that I have done in years but still, as I found out yesterday with my spontaneous sobathon, am very torn and confused and nervous and anxious.

donotknow you put your finger on it when you said "sometimes you wonder if it's you" - absolutely. I DO. I think I am too demanding, too wound up, too much of a nag etc etc. I also quite regular think I am just insane and imagining things and that I over dramatise for the sake of something to think about. But slowly, very slowly, I am allowing msyelf, by people on her, by my sister, by my counsellor, by RL friends that this is NOT the case. However many times I hear it though when I ask him to talk and he gives me that "oh not again" look and asks why I can't just wait and see, I start to think again that the problem is ME.

It's not good.

So anyway, he popped home last night between footie and pub, jus tto drop off his gear. I was upstairs and didn't see him. When I heard the door I thought he had come back to talk but no, just to drop his stuff off. He got home finally when I was already in bed. He had suggested we go for a walk today to talk but now all of a sudden he has loads of stuff on and can't do that. A friend contacted me and asked whether I wanted to go to cinema so I decided f**k it, I am going. He won't make the space to speak to me so why should I put my life anymore on hold and try to pin him down tonight.

Lemony you are right - we could go on forever with him making excuses why its not a good time.

I don't wantto say much about the dispute at work, suffice it to say his professional and personal pride has been dented and he is seeking restitution. I am sure he is good at his job, but probably a bit more trouble than they want - he doesn't just roll over when they want him to do soemthing he feels is off kilter. Am not sure it is the same thing, but am sure his powers of communication haven't done him any favours. He has probable never given them a straight answer to anything and they are worn out by it too!

I'd like to think I could find myself again, but I met him when I was 24, just after my mother died, I was just out of other miserable end to 4 year relship, just recovered from various eating disorders, heading in an alcoholic path. Not sure I want to rediscover that stage of my life! The new me is much more sorted though and maybe she needs a chance to grow now.

oh, he has just told me he thinks I have bad breath. Thanks love.

Even you said "I'd like to think I could find myself again, but I met him when I was 24, just after my mother died, I was just out of other miserable end to 4 year relship, just recovered from various eating disorders, heading in an alcoholic path. Not sure I want to rediscover that stage of my life! The new me is much more sorted though and maybe she needs a chance to grow now."

I seriously don't think that you'll slip back into that old life. You were in your 20's, still finding out who you were. The death of a parent (at any age) is devastating and you were very, very vulnerable - but I don't think that you are any more.....

And from what you say about his work situation, it's a load of bull - you don't need to delay your talk because of it. What I mean is that it's not a 24/7 situation and nothing else can be dealt with - if he can go out to the footie, then he can talk to you..... Stay strong!

Even, regarding the excuses and Lemony's post i d just wanted to tell you if you like to google 'passive-agressive'and read the website. I usually don't like these cliche labels but....

I really feel for you, i remember how frustrating it was trying to talk to a brick wall. And you sound such a nice person..

Oh enjoy the movie tonight

well, there is no going back now. He came down at lunchtime (both working at home today) and as we were eating he said something along line sof "you've no idea how awful it is to be stuck in this position, not knowing what's happening and just waiting in limbo to find out" (talking about his situation at work) - I just said "oh, yes I do" and left it at that. I couldn't quite bring myself to start the whole thing when he was feeling terrible about work. But he picked up on it and asked if I was referring to our situation to which I said yes. Well, it went on from there really. We spent about 30-40 minutes before he had to go back to make a phone call. I said from my perspective it is over and I want us to separate. I want him in the spare room from tonight and I want us to start separating bank accounts etc. I said I will expect to be able to discuss practical details like that with him shortly and also discuss together how to tell the kids and everyone else. I think he was a bit shocked, although when I said he had had plenty of warnings he agreed. He didn't have much to say really. Asked if I wanted him in the spare room from tonight, I do. Asked if it was a "trial separation" I said NO, not from my perspective but if things were to change radically who knows what the future holds. I said I thought it best neither of us jump straight into another relationship as that would be hard to bear. I explained my reasons as his lack of emotional availability, the lack of physical (NOT primarily sex at all) intimacy, teh fact that I am now feeling like I have no tactility or physical intimacy to give him, which horrifies me. He said that he thought he had tried over the past x months to keep a bridge between us - he has been doing the perfunctory morning/evening kiss though I gave up ages ago but I said I found all that totally perfunctory and that if he thought that was how to keep a woman's heart then he was wrong. He has had plenty of time to make things better. I told him I was sick of him not taking responsibility for the upsets of last year and that it just isn't good enough anymore. I said I don't want to spend anymore of my life "waiting and seeing". Poor man. he got it all. I was quite gentle though I hope, I mean I really do like him a lot, and we need to stay friends to bring up teh kids happily. Anyway he did say that he couldn't really blame me for my decision, he knows it has been difficult and I seem much stronger now. I am! he talked a bit about his ADs and the fact that he admitted to the GP that his average weekly units are about 100 (JESUS! that shocked even me) so I told him that as far as I was concerned he shouldn't e surprised he is depressed. he said he was depressed before he started boozing but I reminded him that was probably just narural teenage angst. He has been boozing at about that level since I met him so many years ago. Anyway, not really my concern anymore. He is gone out to pub now. His brother is here to mind kids and I am heading out to movies shortly with two good friends. I actually feel surprisingly better about it all now. I know things will be hard, and am sure I'll worry about stuff again, but at the moment it just feels like the agonising is OVER and I can start using my mind to think about something else for a change. Hallelujah!!!!!

Oh well done! Well done! It's amazing how much lighter you feel when you actually cut the rope that binds you to a burden, isn't it.
You may find it's actually fairly easy to stay amicable (unless his alcoholism worsens).WRT possible new partners a) I don't think you need to worry too much about him finding anyone else just yet, he sounds far too lazy and unbothered about the whole business and b) it is perfectly reasonable to have an agreed ground rule that no partners are brought home for overnight stays for the moment.

Well done, well done, well done!

thanks guys - funnily enough I feel like shit today. My mind keeps playing tricks on me and suggesting stuff about us maybe getting back together. But I know we mustn't. He is just being so goddamn nice and reasonable about it all. Came home from cinema last night and he was all chat, before I headed off to sleep in our room alone (did enjoy that - woke up right in middle of bed, a place I haven't slept for some time as we are normaly both clinging to either side, as far away from each other as we can get)

I have to keep reminding myself that that's cos this is probably what he has wanted subconsciously for some time now. I suppose it is hurting me a bit that he is taking it so calmly, so acceptingly. But I need to move on from that and not make a drama over it. So be it. Should tell me all I need to know really.

Think I need to be spirited off to another planet for a while until a year or so has passed and things are easier...[if only emoticon]

if he had opened up to me about the ADs and his chat with GP etc last week I might have waited a while, see if it makes any difference. He says it is helping him cut down on booze as he starts to feel woozy after two drinks now. But he didn't want to discuss it with me last week. Wouldn't tell me anything.

Anyway, it'll be fine. I'll cope. Was thinking this morning that it'd be great if he just moved out and we could start teh separation properly. I feel I need to do that or I'll be forever wavering. But I know that's not best right now, we need to stay amicable, break it to kids gently etc etc etc, and protect our finances as much as possible while we figure out how to manage the future.

Anyone got any practical tips for living together under one roof while separating? Practical and not so practical, ie tips for emotional and mental sanity too please.

remind me that this is a good idea!

Even - Oh wow! It's amazing how things just start falling into place when the time is right.

You will feel awful today - the deed has been done, the wheels put in motion and the emotions will now be a bit wibbly.... Stay strong. I'm afraid I've no advice on staying in the same house - when I split with my DS's Dad and had to wait until my name was off the mortgage and my share of the equity released, I just muddled through, I guess....

thanks lemony - just need to find the strength now

am starting to feel quite angry with him, which I must keep out of it. 100 units a week! no wonder our relationship couldn't function - I've been looking online and they normally suggest folk on that sort of level need proper detox counselling and help. WTF was going on with his GP? of course maybe he never really told them, just told me he did. They've put him on ADs while he drinks 100 units a week? Surely not. Surely he can't have told them.

I know it is none of my business anymore, but is tough to stop caring after such a long time (worked out was 16 years, not 18 - just felt longer obviously - life sentence and all that!)

anyway, I've got to look after me now, all those years of nagging him about his drinking never did any good, just added to the destruction of things

still, at least I am now not so bored with myself anymore, I need to move on and stop thinking about his issues and whatifs...

I have done the right thing, I have. Haven't I? God look at me now, begging strangers on t'internet to tell I am right. Lordy. It's pathetic...

Even The anger will carry you through for a bit.

You said: "I know it is none of my business anymore, but is tough to stop caring after such a long time (worked out was 16 years, not 18 - just felt longer obviously - life sentence and all that!)"

Well, 16 is a long, long time and your emotions can't be switched off just like that - it will take time.....

Go easy on yourself and take care of yourself.....

notsobored, well done. What a brave step you have taken.
I wish you all the luck in the world.

" I suppose it is hurting me a bit that he is taking it so calmly, so acceptingly."

Even, this is one of the strategies too, he knows he has lost now and he does not want to loose the face so he prefers to pretend it's OK for him. This is alos another way to make you feel, somehow, that it is you the problem. (he is actually fine, you are the one behaving strangely and getting all upset about it). My partner does that to me when he knows he is in the wrong and there is no way out for him. Ignore his reaction, focus on yourself, don't let him pull you back into this uneasy atmosphere.

Easy to say for me perhaps but I would not go for the spare room business, you need to rebuilt yourself and cut free from your partner, you might only get a clear vision once he is no longer with you on a daily basis.

Good luck.

thanks - you are all saying the right things...I just need to keep reminding myself

did some yoga tonight feel great, going to phone my sister for a chat shortly
he is downstairs drinking a bottle of red wine and eating a ready meal

yes, I would like him to move out really, but I want to take things gently, kids will be shocked

he is still acting all cool about everything, keeps talking about IF this thing happens, I keep pointing out that in the absence of any effort or otherwise from him it IS happening. He claims he "feels uncomfortable" taking responsibility for trying to patch things up given that I seem to need a change. Ahem. Also asked tonight if I didn't think I had been, wait for this, "brainwashed" into thinking he had an alcohol problem. I said I didn't think so. Then he always gets back to th efact that he thinks it was very selfish of me to bring it up when I did, what with all the other stuff he had going on. Honestly! maybe it was bad timing but with him no timing is good timing. Anyway, afraid I lost my cool at that stage and went off on a rather unskilful rant about selfishness and if we wanted to talk about selfishness we could talk about him sleeping with someone else, him not being prepared to communicate with me and him being prepared to throw over his little girls in preference to actually addressing his boozing issues. Then I stormed off to bed. [Had to go back down to get hot water bottle which sort of ruined my flounce but nonetheless.]

aaarrrgh!

he is still in spare room and suggests he stay there for foreseeable future while we see what happens with his job (more potential redundancies announced recently) It makes practical sense but I feel myself getting more and more drawn back towards "trying to make it work" (even though I know it would be all on my side) the longer this situation goes on. I am starting to get cold feet about telling the kids and teh long term impact on them and wondering of I shouldn't just patch things up for their sakes.

Trying to make what work? Trying to rebuild a broken relationship with a man who is content to throw off that relationship provided he can continue to pour booze down his throat? How can you make that work?

One of the things I found when I was still in a relationship with my alcoholic ex was that I was permanently in "wait and see" mode. I won't make any decisions right now, I'll wait and see if the drinking eases off, wait and see if Christmas goes ok, wait and see if we can make it through the summer holidays without a meltdown, wait and see if I can come up with some way to stop the drunken arguments et-very-tedious-cetera. In doing so I abdicated from responsibility to choose the direction of my own life.

As for the children; yes, they will be hurt and shocked and confused to hear that you are splitting. With time, love and support they will come to terms with it. Continuing to live with a parent who's an alcoholic causes much more significant and longer-term issues. Children of alcoholics have a much greater chance of developing drink/drug problems themselves, for instance. Look up "Adult Children of Alcoholics", too, for examples of people whose childhood experiences of alcholic parents have marred their lives for decades.

It's not great for a child to come from a broken home, but it's much better than being a child who continues to live in one.

well funnily enough he does use that phrase "wait and see" to describe his suggested strategy for the future

I told him this morning I want to separate our finances. He looked aggrieved, slightly.

As I posted on the other partners of Addicts thread (copied below) I am getting confused again. He keeps telling me he isn't an alcolholic, and maybe he isn't. But I do think he is heavily booze dependant and that must be where lots of our issues stem from.

I tell him that denial is one of the symptoms of alcohol dependency but he just shrugs it off. Problem is I don't know who is right. Am I just making a mountain out of a molehill? He rarely gets roaring drunk, never violent, can be a bit unpleasant after a number of drinks if I say something he doesn't agree with but nothing major. Today he told me he is and has always been melancholic, he has a touch of depression he feels, maybe manic depression he reckons hmm first I've heard of that, and that he drinks to help him get through it all. But it is not a problem. He feels that, except during the summer when he doesn't have to work, he just drinks a normal amount. Cited to me the fact that since Saturday he has only had 3 pints a night. Nothing wrong with that he says. On friday however he had about 3 large vodkas, lots of bubbly, lots of wine and 4 or 5 armagnacs (we hosted friends for dinner - there were two other big drinkers there, one of whom is his brother). He maintains I have just gone onto a more "affirmative" "enlightened" path since having kids and opening up a bit more to my sort of spiritual (feel weird even writing that!) side. I have gone from being a heavy drinker myself to more or less giving up booze (will still have odd glass of wine, maybe twice a week but no more). I think he thinks I am overeacting to his drinking and trying to make out that is the problem in the relationship, rather than the fact that I have changed. I am so confused about it all. He continues to maintain that my timing of the separation suggestion has made it impossible for him to react. I am at wits end. Am I overreacting? How can I possibly know.

I guess maybe I need to try to stop getting so hung up on "is he/isn't he?" analysis. Point is something major is wrong and he isn't doing anything to try to fix it. Then he cites the awfulness of my timing though. God, I just can't win.

He lays it all squarely at my door. I'm teh one who just upped and wanted everything to change.

You wanted everything to change for a reason though. You are deeply unsatisfied with your relationship for lots of valid reasons. If it were me, I would've split for the infidelity alone, but you still tried to make it work. Whilst you've agonised over what to do to make it better, put in the effort, he's done bugger all to try and make it work.

Of course he's laying the blame at your door, he seems pathologically incapable of taking responsibility for anything from what you've said so far. I shall point out here that inability to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions is also classic addict behaviour.

He's clearly been very skilled at getting you to doubt yourself with his intellectualised waffle, but it's just bollocks. Relationships are matters of the heart, not the mind, and he cannot bullshit his way out of it.

thanks Dizietsma

I know you are right, everything about what you say rings so true. I guess I am just scared ad clutching at straws. Am trying not to let him see this though, as far as it goes with him I just say "It's over, we need to separate finances" - ok, I did rant on a bit last night and this morning about how I find it difficult to accept him calling me selfish when he has done blah blah and blah...

I think he is just used to me giving in and getting it back on, it's been the pattern. I really do need to change that.

Give me strength!

Notso Nothing wrong with a bit of fishwifery in my opinion....

Keep going - don't let him pull the wool over your eyes again. Everything that Dizietsma says is right. He's employing delaying tactics with his bullshit....

thanks - I know you are right - just had good long chat with my sister who knows him well (and really likes him - he is a lovely fellow in so many ways) and she helped me to work out some pratical issues

1. get new bank account and separate finances (stop paying for his booze!)
2. tell him to start looking for flat nearby
3. start planning for a future for me and the girls that is not dependant on him

she said if I wanted to move near her she would help out with kids etc etc etc but I will leave that a while, let them deal with the first trauma of mum and dad separating while safe in their known environment and then maybe think about more major changes next summer

my sister still hopes he will realise what he stands to lose but is in agreement that that is absolutely not going to happen until rugs start to get properly pulled

He will tell me he doesn't want to move out yet as he is just applying for a job elsewhere in the country and it wouldn't be practical to have a flat up there and one down here, he won't be able to afford it - he told me this morning maybe he could stay here at weekends to see girls if he gets that job. I don't think so. Much as I would like to be the sort of woman who could rise above it all and deal with that sort of arrangement I already find that him still being here is just keeping all the pain on top and actually making me more angry and resentful. Which isn't in anyone's interests and will only make the long term amicable relationship we need to have for the kids sake more difficult in teh long run. I will just have to put mortgage on interest only etc.

Well actually that said, its not just the mortgage is it - heating, council tax etc etc too. God, better go through bills and make sure i can afford it all without him and am not just about to cut off nose despite face

I got myself into a bit of a state this morning and couldn't do any work etc so ended up emailing my boss and letting him know what is going on - I know he has started to notice slackness on my part of late and has started to comment. I don't need that now. No response from him, but then he is a little emotionally and socially challenged himself. Jeez, am surrounded by them!

You'll need : mortgage, gas, electric, telephone, council tax, mobile phone, tv licence, broadband, water, food - think that's about it. He'll have to give you money for the kids, too....