need some help seeing wood for trees and deciding what to do next

[EvenBoringMyselfNow]

I need some help seeing wood for trees and finding a way think about the future

we've married 8 y together 18 (gulp!) - 2 kids (7&4)
some issues over the years, mostly wabout wanting kids/not wanting kids. both very happy we have them now, tho they do put strain on relationship at times. both work and get quite stressed. DH currently very stressed over work, has been in some shape or other for past x years, quite bad for last year.

Over the years his libido has been quite low compared to mine. I used to try to instigate sex but be rebuffed so I gave up about 6 years ago as it was getting quite depressing and not doing the old self -esteem much good. Then abut a year and a half ago I decided to give it another whirl, bought sexy undies etc and ravished him in the kitchen on valentines night. He seemed to enjoy that. But when I tried it again seemed quite bored. So after a few tries I stopped making that effort too. Now we have fairly stratighforward one up one down sex when he wants it which is about twice a month. He often doesn't orgasm.

He drinks a lot which I am sure is a major factor in this.

I am on ADs for depression and have been for 2 years now.

Last year we went for couples counselling. Was not much use tbh. During the counselling period we went out one night and got quite inebriated and DH said lots of stuff about how he fancied other women etc etc etc - nothing wrong with that per se - he also said he wanted to have sex with other women. Hmm. Next day he "confessed" to a one night stand with some woman at a conference. I felt like I'd been slapped in the face with a wet fish given that he was never that interested in sex with me. When I would ask him about us staying together he claimed he wanted to (after a couple of months thinking about it) but he always says you can't tell the future and so nothing is definate for ever. I used to find this very difficult to take but in the last year have thought about uncertainty and impermanence A LOT (read Pema Chodron if that means anything to you and began to really appreciate that of course NOTHING is certain, apart from NOW)

We went on from there, decided to stay together after he'd slept in the spare room a while. I thought he would start to make more of an effort after that but he didn't really. I totally stopped making an effort wrt "moments of intimacy" at this point. We still have sex about twice a month, when he hasn't had too much to drink

He still gives me a kiss morning and evening but I can't be bothered anymore tbh. Most of my physical affection goes on the kids now.

I am going away for a few days on my own this weekend and I know I'll be mulling over all of this. I felt it was fair to have a chat with him before I went and let him know how I am feeling. We rarely talk about any of this stuff as it makes him too tense and stressed and it is never really worth it. I have mentioned a couple of months ago that certain stuff was causing me problems still and he admitted he hadn't been great and said he didn't want to talk about it anymore but that his actions would speak louder than words. So I shut up again.

Well, he took the kids out to library that day and did something else nice with them but there have been no efforts at intimacy with me since

Last night I opened up to him. I told him how I am feeling, how I felt quite disappointed that after all the fuss last year and him admitting the fling he hadn't made more of an effort, how I didn't feel any great intimacy or desire between us anymore. He claimed that his outbursts last year were not his responsibility, that he had been an equal victim of the therapy as I had. He has also in the past claimed that the one night stand was not his responsibility (apparantly it was rainging and the co-delegate couldn't get a taxi and so had to sleep with him) I told him how I've worked hard on myself this year on dealing with my need for security and certainty and I feel much better equipped to deal with that now but that I was just getting no real sense of desire or intimacy from him. I told him I feel that he is just not taking responsibility for stuff but leaving it all for me to decide as then he can get away with just dealing with MY DECISION and having to bear none of the responsibility for it. I also told him that I feel his primary relationship is with booze rather than me. At this point he talked about me reading too many self help books (I don't - I've been reading quite a few books on buddhism and spirituality of late, and on taking responsibility for oneself but no "men are from mars, women..venus" type stuff) and asked whether I had been talking to soemone about this stuff in the last few days. He doesn't like the idea that I discuss our relationship with anyone else. Although I have been quite clear that I do talk, to my counsellor and to my sister and another friend. I'd have gone doolally by now if I didn't.

He ummed and ahhed. In the end I just asked whether he did desire me and whether he did want to stay with me. He said nothing. For about ten minutes. He ummed and aaahed audibly, said "oh fucking hell" quite a bit to himself, and said nothing. Then he said something about sometimes not being able to just answer questions straight off. He talked about the fact that silence could be construed as an answer and that this would be the wrong conclusion to jump to. He always does this, talks about the meta-narrative of "our" (my?!) discussions rather than the content.

What the fuck do I do? basically I think I need to wake up and smell the coffee. There is no desire or intimacy left here, there probably hasn't been for some time. He won't make any decision about things. Some day some apparantly more attractive woman will fall for him and he for her and that'll be it. I think if any other woman he felt attracted to offered a shag he'd go for it (depending on time of day and how much he'd had to drink of course, if too much he'd be no use)

He doesn't even help much around the house, though he claims he does. He does do a lot of drop offs of the kids to school though, so I can go to work early.

What do I do? Am I mad to put so much importance on desire/intimacy/closeness? At least 3 of my women friends husbands don't want sex much either and one of them is like me, she has given up. She said it is too awful to have to basically beg for sex. She is drop dead gorgeous too. They keep going though. IS this normal. Do I put up with it and just continue to live my own life with him on the periphery (which is where he is heading at the moment)

any advice or shared experience so so welcome, feel I am at the end of my tether (again)

(Sorry is so long, have just looked again - bloody hell - well done if you got to the end)

I know laquitar, pathetic

well, sounds like you had one of the same. It helps to read you message. Makes me feel less barmy to read it all written by someone else whose been through similar. Isn't it waering though.

Believe me if I didn't have any kids now I would be gone. Although if I didn't have any kids I probably wouldn't have realised half of this stuff.

anyway, I have them now (and wouldn't be without) so the whole leaving/getting him to leave/trial stuff is a bit trickier

not alone from a financial pov (our finances severely more constrained than before kids) but also from a managing their emotional upheaval pov. nevermind mine.

Laquitar- that has got to be one of the most coherent and positive posts I have ever read on MN...

Also the other posters here have made a lot of sense- this is not the Oscars, so I'll shut up, but Gawd, there is some bloody good advice on this thread!

Wakey, wakey love. Your life is calling and it wants you back.

Ditch him and start living again
x x x

Even,
just read your last post and yes i agree that it is much trickier when you have children. But you asked him if he desires you and wants to stay with you and he gave you silence This alone would make me to leave, children or no. Because if i stayed my children would have an emotional wreck for a mother.

I 've just went through the whole thread trying to find a reason for you to stay. I couldn't find any! . Emotionally he gives you nothing, he gives you depression and a possible breakdown. On practical level the max contribution is that he takes the dcs to school. Either a) he can do that while he lives somewhere else b) you swap with a local mum c) you pay someone a tenner and job is done.

The irony is that so many women stay for financial reasons. But bad marriages lead you to depression. And depression leads you to decreased earnings. On the other hand, breaking free can actually increase your earnings (even with childcare challenges).
More time and energy. Better self esteem and assertivness at work. Mental clarity and creativity.

Sometimes when i read about women who stay for financial reasons and work so hard to save hopeless marriages 'because of the bills' i 'm thinking 'Gosh all the energy you spent for this loser, if you put this time and energy into bussiness you would have been a millionaire by now' .

BitOfFun thanks . You ve made me with the Oscars.I agree, exellent posts from Lemony, Hassled, Hundred and others.

Even OK, there are financial constraints - but it's not impossible. I speak as someone who is raising 2 kids alone (both their fathers are dead). I work full-time, pay the mortgage, pay for childcare yadda, yadda, yadda - nothing that a LOT of other single mums out there don't do.

My DS is 12 and when he's not being hormonal, is a smashing kid. He's helpful, good fun, very funny and loves his baby sister to pieces. I separated from his Dad when he was 2. His Dad died when my DS just 6. My DS is well balanced (albeit hormonal, but that's another story).

I split from his Dad because his Dad left us in arrears with the mortgage, bailiffs at the door when DS was 6 weeks old, pissed his Xmas bonus and housekeeping money up the wall, leaving us with no money for food at Xmas. He used to absolutely bellow at DS for little things that a toddler would do and I couldn't bring my son up in an atmosphere like that.

I just don't buy the theory that it's worse for the kids if you split. You can both be good parents, just not a good couple....

I was thinking about you last night! I was thinking about how you write about him with such compassion and understanding. I think this is half the trouble, but also what, in truth, makes you such a good person.

It would be easier to ask him to go if you bitterly hated him - even if you loved him at the same time. But your understanding of him allows you to excuse and to explain and understand. It doesn't make you a donkey, it makes you compassionate.

But I think if you have been the one endlessly explaining yourself, doing all those stitching conversations in a relationship - and you STILL aren't getting anywhere, then enough is enough.

Your understanding of HIM ultimately isn't all that useful because it allows you to excuse, rather than concentrate on yourself and your needs.

And those waves of resentment and hurt - which you try to explain to him - are only going to get stronger and more furious the less you are heard.

I agree with what others have said about being numbed.

BoF you are right - I have had soem great advice on here, and what is even more important at the moment some understanding and empathy for the position I am in. You don't know how much that helps. Having some (random folk on internet)one understand how difficult this is, how confused I am feeling. How even though when I sit and do a concrete analysis of it I feel shocked I haven't got rid of him already I can still be here, wondering. He is not a bad person. He can be sweet with the kids (tho shouts at them a lot too), he looks after the cat, he puts up with my vagaries and foibles, he is always happy to babysit when I go out to meet friends or to classes. He looked after the kids all summer while I was working. He does try in some ways. None of this comes naturally to him. But, as a100times so succinctly put it, that is half my problem. I understand too much and feel too much empathy for him (and fancy him too much I suppose). I am quite compassionate I suppose. I can generally see both sides to most things and weigh them up carefully. But in black and white I'm not getting much here anymore, and tbh neither is he really (in the greater scheme of things). He is just too scared to end it. I feel that so strongly.

I guess in ways I am the same. I am scared. I am worried it will have been a mistake. But why, it's obvious it's not great now.

AAArgh.

But thank you all so much, you are REALLY helping me.

Am off at lunchtime for a weekend far away, in the deepest countryside with some like minded women to relax and no doubt will do an amount of cogitating on the situation. Last time I went away like this (in July) I came back totally convinced we needed to split and with an ache in my stomach that didn't leave me for a week.

Hopefully some clarity and conviction will return.

I think ahundredtimes is spot on. You are a lovely, understanding person.

As a matter of interest have you tried being entirely uninterested? So that you treat the relationship pretty much as he treats it.

No meals, no washing, no sex, no conversation, no sympathy, no advice; barely any interaction at all in fact. That's what he does.

and you see lemony, if he did leave us with bailiffs at the door etc my decision would be easier I think (not to belittle yours at all). fact is he would never do that. He earns ok money, it goes in our joint account, he spends what he needs (not much, cds, football, books, odd night in pub) I spend what I need and I manage the rest into mortgage etc. He would never squander all our cash.

reducedtothis - I have been being fairly disinterested the last few months, never kiss or cuddle him anymore (doesn't seem to have noticed - think he has stopped now too since the chat the other night - he hasn't been offering his perfunctory peck morning and evening anyway), we've had sex a few times but I did pretend to be asleep once (which wld never have even crossed my mind before) as I just couldn't be bothered. He does most of our meals as I would be happy with toast in the evenings but he wants proper dinner. He always makes sunday roast etc. Wrt conversation etc - we do have conversations, two way, funny ones too. He just doesn't want to discuss our relationship or the future.

Even yes, I know. I gave you the example of how bringing up children by yourself would not necessarily scar them for life , that's all. The more pressing reason I left him was emotionally unavailable to both me and our son.... He couldn't/wouldn't engage in any type of conversation about feelings etc. Never. Not in a month of Sundays. That really was what killed it....

Hmmm. So he's good with everything but intimacy?

I guess so reducedtothis - he is no good at intimacy, physical or emotional. Not much cop on emotional support either. Drinks too much. useless at managing finances of anything like that requiring adult type responsibility or application (tho he does do car and house insurances - altho left our house without buildings or contents insurance once for 6 months ) Doesn't want to do much with me and kids, especially not anything that involves more effort than going to local park so I do this sort of stuff with girlfriends now. Is fairly taciturn except when something really interests him. reduces all emotional etc stuff to intellectual exercising. is useless at tidying or manging the house in that sort of way. Doesn't clean but when I employ a cleaner moans about having to be home to let her in but doesn't want to give her a key. etc etc etc

but is generally kind, funny and cooks food for us all a lot.

mind you he is currently looking at a ten month job in another country and hasn't once mentioned where me and kids fit into it.

he is a conundrum. or maybe not. maybe I am still just blind.

lemony - thanks for sharing your experience - you sound very wise and strong. I'm glad you got through all that shit and that you and kids are fine. Good on you woman,

Even, The non-intimacy things can be farmed out: cleaner, au pair, Ocado, ready meals, taxis etc. Intimacy is what makes (or its absence breaks) a primary relationship and it's really not unreasonable to expect it.

You sound lovely and if I was a man I'd like to get to know you much better, even if it wasn't raining.

I haven't read all this thread but I think you've started other threads previously.
I think he doesn't love you. It is soul destroying being with someone who doesn't love you. If you leave you will probably feel hugely liberated and in a couple of years time you will hardly recognise your previous existence as a life.
You have tried to rebuild your relationship. He hasn't. I think you have to give up on him.

(I'm normally quite keen on people trying to stick it out btw - but having seen my brother transformed after seperating from a loveless marriage, I'd say sometimes it really is the best thing for everyone. I bet your h will be happier too, galling though that will be for you).

I think he is basically fundamentally uninterested in a couple-relationship. He can't even be arsed to have a proper affair (I would be inclined to believe him that it wasn't actual sex here, that would have involved him making an effort).
If he is contributing to the household financially and in terms of childcare and domestic duties, that's a slightly different dynamic to the bloke who does nothing except threaten to Be Unfaithful every time wifey shows reluctance to be an adoring servant.
How would you feel about sharing the house with him as co-parents but with no couple-relationship ie both of you are free to have romantic/sexual encounters and relationships elswhere? How do you think he would feel about you dating or bonking someone else?

reducedtothis - thanks you made me laugh! but you are right, a bit of emotional, nevermind physical intimacy isn't too much to ask your partner of 18 years.

elliott, yes I have started threads on here before, well remembered. I've been agonising over this for at least 12 months now and get a bit embarrassed that I am still doing so. I think you are right though, and thanks for your advice. I think I need to stop bashing my head against a brick wall here and try to move on.

SGB, yes I have considered and continue to consider the living in the same house and co-parenting but not being a couple and that is what I have decided to suggest to him, for the short term at least while we try to sort out practicalities. The issue will come around dating I suspect, I think it would feel far too raw for me if he were to bring someone home. But maybe I could manage him staying out overnight if that's what came up.

Have had a lovely contemplative retreat weekend, surrounded by women in a beautiful part of the country. Was just what my spirit needed. I feel a bit more able to see the wood for the trees after a couple of long conversations over that weekend, and also with the benefit of the advice I've received on here. Now comes the question of when to instigate the next conversation. At least in this one I will be taking charge and telling him what I want, rather than pathetically asking questions and waiting to hear what he does. I hope. I hope I don't turn all pathetic and needy and hopeful that he will respond the way I sort of know he can't/isn't willing to...

wish me luck

I am glad that you had a nice retreat!

Good luck with the next conversation

Even - Good luck to you - keep posting on here, we'll give you all the encouragement we can to do what you need to do....

Glad that you had a good weekend!

thanks - would be very grateful for any continued support - am very apprehensive about the future but think am now convinced the present situation isn't good

I always think I am over dramatising though, maybe it is fine and I am just a drama queen or mad

I had a moment of epiphany while out at lunchtime (buying little Cath Kidston treats for to cheer myself up - prospect of future financial ruin meant I spent under a tenner which is an achievement in there I tell you)

anyway, my epiphany was that I have become unwilling or unable to show my love for DH now. But I am a loving person. Tactile, like to hug and kiss and cuddle. Not to extent you'd want to tell me to "get a room", just in a regular sort of way. Now I give him nothing. It feels like that part of me has died. I feel so sad about this. I can't/ don't want to go on like this.

(I find myself being much more touchy feely with other people, probably a result of all that loving wanting an out, am forever touching people's arms etc etc - god, hope I don't come across as total weirdo lady ) Very rarely touch DH anymore.

Even One can only take so much rejection before withdrawing into a shell and shutting down, I think....

yes lemony - that's the revelation that came to me at lunchtime - you just put it more eloquently and succinctly

I read on another thread here that denying your feelings can lead to depression and am now wondering whether that is what has contributed to mine over the past couple of years and to the fact that I am now reliant on ADs to feel anyway stable

gave me quite a shock

had a long caht with myself on way home from work about how I was going to do it all in a measured fashion, tell him we needed to talk, agree a time etc etc etc...what did I do? walk in the door, say hi, put my bag on the floor and promptly burst into tears, bad, jagging, sobbing tears. I haven't cried like that in years. I was hunched over the kitchen worktop with my hands over my eyes. Trying to stop it. Then he came and put his arm around me and asked was something up? ( no I just fancied a wail dear) I couldn't say anything.

managed to stop and sat down with head in hands. Ha asked again. Had something happened? I shook my head. Was it something I was thinking about. Nodded. Couldn't trust myself to speak. He sighed. Then finally I managed to say we need to talk. He is out at football tonight and always goes to pub after. he suggested getting a babysitter tomorrow night. I don't want to do that as we'll only end up in pub with him drinking and I have had too many convos with him now with me sober and him one or two glasses the worse for wear. We may get chance to speak tomorrow during day as I am working from home and so is he (lot of work I'll get done, got nothing done today as it is). He suggested afterwards maybe tonight after footie (ie he wouldn't go to pub) but then decided that wasn't a good idea. He told me my timing is very bad as he has a lot on his plate at work. I know he does, he is fighting HR and his boss on something, but it's jsut never a good time for him. He just never wants to talk. Then he said maybe we should let the dust settle a little. FFS he doesn't even know what I have to say yet (though I suppose signs suggest it ain't "let's go renew our vows dear")

anyway, bleuuughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. That's what I really wanted to say.

I could have written this post... barely able to write through the tears.... sorry to hijack. x