*UPDATE* on the DP 'finding himself' trip to India. We had 'the talk', did not go well...

[stellamel]

Original thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=relationships&threadid=799173-DP-is-going-on-39-finding-himself-39-trip -to

....went worse than imagined

It started off all nice and calm, well on my part anyway. I asked if I could chat about a few worries I had regarding the trip, which he grudgingly agreed too, he didn't see what needed to be discussed, as I'd already agreed to the trip. Anyway I pushed on regardless. I asked him straight out what his reason was for going, was it this make or break deal, this finding himself trip, but he said that was what I wanted it to be, it wasn't anything like that for him, he said he was doing the trip because 'he fancied it' , it was something he'd always wanted to do. When I pointed out that I didn't think he could justify an extended trip, to a danger zone, at a large expense just because he fancied it, he just replied 'why not?'.

Anyway it all went down hill really from there really, to condense a very long and exhausting evening into a readable post, he basically said it wasn't to be a one off, he intends to do more of these extended trips to exciting locations. He also refused my compromise of a couple of weeks a year to himself to go off climbing or running etc somewhere (a damn fair compromise I thought). He also refused to turn next year's India trip into a family affair, I tried to suggest we go as a family treking somewhere (we are big hiker types) instead of him doing India. He said no, if we could come on bikes, or possibly canoe down the Andes (what with a 6mth old and a 4 yr old!) then maybe, otherwise there was no point. When I pointed out that I didn't know anyone who thought this was a good idea amongst my friends and both our families (men as well as women), he said he couldn't care less and that everyone of his mates at work thought it was a brilliant plan, and they wished they could do it. He then said the most negative thing ever 'All men are held back by their families'!

He basically accused me of being selfish, of not understanding because I have no desire to travel, which I said was extremely unfair, I do and would, but I have to put my children first, and I am not even a earth mother type - I just know that my kids have to come first and foremost now, and that doesn't mean I have to sacrifice myself in the process, just that I have to work around the fact that I am a mother with responsibilities. I conceded that family life can be mundane and tedious, and I too feel the need to escape at times, but that can be done without fecking off for weeks and weeks to the other side of the world at great expense.

He is blatantly unaware that his going away heaps massive pressure onto me too, that I need to stay behind and hold the fort as it were while he just swans off.

He told me that this is how he is, that he is a free spirit etc and he'll never be any different.

I pointed out that it sounded like he was trying to escape being a parent and a partner, he replied by saying hypothetically speaking what would that mean if it were true. I told him it would make me feel very insecure and question his commitment to me, and was it worth carrying on. He got angry with that, and said he wanted to be in a relationship and be a Dad.

Ho hum, things deteriorated after that, much of the same going round in circles, with him not understanding any of my fears and worries. I gave up in the end and went to bed.

We are still ok, the trip is still going ahead, with my blessing (he's going regardless, I may as well be included in the build-up, so I can get a grasp of the risks involved and the precautions taken). I have a lot of thinking to do. I have discussed the above with a mutual friend and his mum, and feel that he his possibly never going to compromise and it's down to me know to decide what the future holds. His mum did say, he once came to her quite upset after another failed relationship, he told her he felt he would never be able to have a long term committed relationship because he couldn't find anyone who wanted the same as him. His mum told him that most women will happily coast along for 3 years, but after that they want some show of commitment. He just didn't get it.

So there you go, not positive, but at least I now have a better insight into how he works, and hopefully I can make a choice that is the best for everyone.

How are you this morning Stella? I have fresh coffee and muffins if you want to join me?

Two practical points

1. Another cost to think about is his portfolio when he comes back - this is where some of the photographers on MN may be able to give you more of a steer.

In my old life I used to (badly) commission the odd photographer, and they would rock up with high quality prints, and then be able to direct me to a website of their work. Neither of these would come cheap.

I would check out somewhere like Metro to get an idea of costs of printing, and look into how he would manage his publicity, as well as any design / printing costs of business cards website etc
.
This really isn't my strong point, but I'm sure that someone on here will know about all these things.

1. Personally, as an editor, I always wanted to see a wide variety of work. Let's face it, a lot of the media is trade press, so you have to be able to do logo photography, product shots, whatever.

The most common commission was the portrait of some business person, whether they were the CEO of a widget making company, or the managing partner of a magic circle law firm, or some super trendy founder of an advertising agency.

Do you think that he could do that, treating his subjects with tact and respect? Would he resent the fact that to put food on the table, he would have to take (boring) shots of men in suits, or the front of a building?

I'm afraid that we rejected quite a lot of photographers who obviously thought they were slumming it, by working for a trade publication, which was a shame, because we used to pay good money.

A good photographer can leave his ego at the door, and realise that he represents the magazine or whatever which has commissioned him. I'm afraid your DP sounds like someone we would avoid.

Sorry if being unfair, perhaps he would be very professional. However, I think this may be irrelevant as , as others have said, with budgets being tight, there is no way we would risk our one shot at a portrait with an industry player with a 40 year old newbie.

Hello folks, got any blueberry muffins greenmonkies?

He was out last eve with mate discussing logistics of trip, back v. late I think, not seen him as at work now, he was in bed when I left.

Thanks Nigella, that is most interesting!

Nothing new to report until I have another talk with him. But whatever happens I want you all to know (yes you too expat ) that you have been a huge source of support, good advice, wit, widsom, in fact the whole nine yards. Feel very buoyed up by all of you. Many thanks again

Really glad you are still here Stellamel! Yes, do keep us posted

Stella, I apologise. It's just really, really sad to see someone who so obviously deserves so much more be taken advantage of in the name of 'love'.

You have so much on your plate without all this added stress.

A partner is supposed to, most of the time at least, enrich your life together, not add more pain and stress.

Good luck to you in whatever you decide!

I've got date and sultana this morning, but can do some blueberry if you give me some notice! (and decaf, for you, in your condition [wink)

Stella, you are a star. You are so gracious in the face of much adversity. It would have scared and panicked me to come on MN simply to vent and to instead have everyone show me how much of a challenge I actually have on my plate.

I can't really add anything to what has already been said. but just wanted to give you my support too. I hope this gets resolved in a way that is beneficial to you and your dcs.

My ex was also a 'free spirit' and I spent all of our years together feeling like I was holding him back and forcing a bourgeois lifestyle on him. I never felt truly at ease in the relationship. It wasn't at all good for my self confidence.I thought he would change and settle down but he didn't. In the end I left him and am now married to someone who shares my goals and aspirations and we are very happy together in what my ex perceives as suburban dullness.

Trust your gut instinct as to whether your dp can make you feel happy and comfortable in your relationship.

I've been reading both your threads Stellamel (there's lots to read isn't there, it's like a novel ).

In my experience of other people's relationships with 'difficult but interesting' men the ones that seem to work best are where the more responsible partner is clear that she (not always a 'she', but usually IME) is a person in her own right with her own needs and dreams. The wive/girlfriend is clear that she will not interfere with or try to inhibit the dreams of her partner, but neither will she compromise her dreams or her future to make his dreams come true. The relationships where it really doesn't work are where the non-free-spirit allows herself to become responsible for fixing everything that the free-spirit messes up. Usually the free-spirit ends up resenting his partner for being mundane, if they are both lucky the relationship breaks down earlier rather than later.

Basically you are not responsible for making your partner happy Stella. I think he doesn't seem clear in his mind that the most he can reasonably expect from you is the emotional support of allowing him to follow his dream. It's not reasonable for him to expect you to sacrifice your time skivvying for him and your future financial security. If he says that you are holding him back by not helping him/funding him then tell him it's his dream, if he really wants it he'll find a way. I agree with everyone who has already said that you should ring-fence your finances to protect you and your DCs.

Without knowing him, but knowing the type, I suspect that if you make it clear that he has to do his own donkey work (you're not having the adventure, why should you do the admin) he will probably end up either not going at all or not being able to get accross the border into the really dangerous countries because he hasn't sorted out the visas.

Stella - I think your responses show how strong you are, just think what you could achieve with just 2 children to look after and not three.

I can half remember a thread from ages ago. It was a woman with young kids who wanted to go away on a yacht trip. I seem to remember that she got mixed advice on whether to go or not. Does anyone remember this?

Anyway, you must really love this guy and he must have some great points, or such a sensible woman wouldn't be with him.

He seems to be having a mid life crisis. I think we've all experienced that 'OMG i need to run away from life' type feeling. The thing is, most of us don't actually run away. My guess is that he is shit scared of commitment and feels like his self image has been shattered. He wants to be something special cool, not just a boring old dad.

If i were you, i'd leave him with the 4 year old at weekends and go stay with friends or family. He'll maybe realise just how hard (and rewarding) it is to be a parent. If he doesn't, then at least it'll be good practice for when he's a single parent. Actually, that's a lie. if i were you i'd have dumped him already!

Good luck, and remember that things usually work out fine in the end, no matter what life throws at us. Just speak to him, tell him your fears and ask for honesty.

I remember the yacht trip thread but the difference is she wasn't a dead beat mother expecting her oh to take out a loan to fund it.

'A partner is supposed to, most of the time at least, enrich your life together, not add more pain and stress.'

Well said Expat. A lot of people lose sight of that.

In answer to Nigellas points stella it may help you to know that as the director of a media comms company often responsible for helping small businesses get themselves ready for launch with branding etc you are looking at the following costs:

Decent website with portfolio facility (vital in an industry like photography which is both competitive and appearance orientated) - £2500 - £3000 plus ongoing seo support - depending on your designer this may/may not include hosting/support. If not this can run to an extra 500/600 pounds per year. In total expect to spend around 5 grand a year online. Of course it can be done cheaper then this - I could tell you where to do it for free but it wont help appearance and differentiation which is really important to a photographer.

Time and resources need to be spent on sites like flikr to get the social media aspect up. There are also a number of sites where photographers can watermark and upload their images for sale. Hard work tho.

Business cards/stationary. £150 minimum plus design costs.

Networking: 2000 per year.

Portfolio - not sure but (uni qualified) photographer friend just spen 750 on hers.

Work experience costs - time spent working for free to build really good contacts. Travel costs etc.

Pr/Marketing. A good company charges around 150 pound per article. Your partner needs to generate the news to do it though.

In this day and age people wont just ask him about his website, they will also want to see a blog/social media connection. If he is really, really seriously going to do this for your sake because I too am pregnant and up until recently was financially responsible, my advice would be to tell him to start a blog or photo journal now, tell as many people as he can about it then try and update it whilst not being blown up by land mines so there is some interest when he gets back.

Then of course there are the issues of work being painfully irregular. Almost every photographer I have worked with has to do either weddings, local newspaper internships or crap sleb work to try and keep working and it is the most painstaking process ever. For every testino there are 5000 struggling photographers and in the main it is a young persons game.

I tell you this not to upset you - I am also in awe of the grace you have shown but I want you to be prepared for what you have coming so you can make a properly informed decision about whether to go ahead with this or not. Its your money he is spending and you need to be sure before you invest in him that you will see a return for that. I dont think you will but not perhaps for the reasons everyone else is stating although they are very good.

My reason is this. It takes real determination to survive and thrive in a creative industry. It can be soul destroying and brutal and you have to work hard to be motivated on an ongoing basis. By him using you to achieve what he wants he is already showing he doesnt have the strength of mind, determination or resourcefulness it takes. I hope we are all proved wrong for your sake but I really hope you can change his mind.

Good luck and keep us informed. I hope this isnt putting too much strain on your pregnancy.

horriblemonday - yes I remember the yacht thread. I also thought that was very wrong. Equally dangerous and self indulgent.

"A partner is supposed to, most of the time at least, enrich your life together, not add more pain and stress."
Good point - think it should be added to the top of the "Relationships" board!

The yacht thread was v different though - she was going on a two-week leg of an organised and very safety-conscious event. Several people have suggested that the OP's husband should look into a similar type of organised adventure and it doesn't sound like Stella would have a problem with that.
Stella - I agree with the other posters - you are dealing with the full-on MN experience really well and you sound like a lovely person, your DP had better step up to the mark if he wants to be worthy of you.

"he said he couldn't come home, he 'had to do this' and hung up"

Jeez - you poor soul. I'd be bloody furious - and really upset as well.

desperatefishwife - I hope you hear from him soon

desperatefishwife - your post was like pressing fast-forward on stella's. I hope you get through to your dp soon, what a very sobering post.

It always amazes me that there's always someone on MN who can answer queries. (amazing detail Prettyfly!)

So, basically, you could be looking at about say £15k costs to get established. Or maybe, at a conservative estimate £10K. That is before he decides he needs a bigger lens.

I think that it's becoming more and more apparent that this trip is just a holiday, not anything to to act as a bedrock for his career.

And frankly, you cannot afford this holiday. I wish that you could, but I'm sure that few of us could afford this kind of trip at this stage of our lives.

Desperate, how long is the whole trip projected to be?

desperatefishwife that is awful! I'm not sure how i would make it through the day tbh.

stellamel you sound so together over all this, I hope your DP realises just what it is he is about to jepordise.