*UPDATE* on the DP 'finding himself' trip to India. We had 'the talk', did not go well...

[stellamel]

Original thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=relationships&threadid=799173-DP-is-going-on-39-finding-himself-39-trip -to

....went worse than imagined

It started off all nice and calm, well on my part anyway. I asked if I could chat about a few worries I had regarding the trip, which he grudgingly agreed too, he didn't see what needed to be discussed, as I'd already agreed to the trip. Anyway I pushed on regardless. I asked him straight out what his reason was for going, was it this make or break deal, this finding himself trip, but he said that was what I wanted it to be, it wasn't anything like that for him, he said he was doing the trip because 'he fancied it' , it was something he'd always wanted to do. When I pointed out that I didn't think he could justify an extended trip, to a danger zone, at a large expense just because he fancied it, he just replied 'why not?'.

Anyway it all went down hill really from there really, to condense a very long and exhausting evening into a readable post, he basically said it wasn't to be a one off, he intends to do more of these extended trips to exciting locations. He also refused my compromise of a couple of weeks a year to himself to go off climbing or running etc somewhere (a damn fair compromise I thought). He also refused to turn next year's India trip into a family affair, I tried to suggest we go as a family treking somewhere (we are big hiker types) instead of him doing India. He said no, if we could come on bikes, or possibly canoe down the Andes (what with a 6mth old and a 4 yr old!) then maybe, otherwise there was no point. When I pointed out that I didn't know anyone who thought this was a good idea amongst my friends and both our families (men as well as women), he said he couldn't care less and that everyone of his mates at work thought it was a brilliant plan, and they wished they could do it. He then said the most negative thing ever 'All men are held back by their families'!

He basically accused me of being selfish, of not understanding because I have no desire to travel, which I said was extremely unfair, I do and would, but I have to put my children first, and I am not even a earth mother type - I just know that my kids have to come first and foremost now, and that doesn't mean I have to sacrifice myself in the process, just that I have to work around the fact that I am a mother with responsibilities. I conceded that family life can be mundane and tedious, and I too feel the need to escape at times, but that can be done without fecking off for weeks and weeks to the other side of the world at great expense.

He is blatantly unaware that his going away heaps massive pressure onto me too, that I need to stay behind and hold the fort as it were while he just swans off.

He told me that this is how he is, that he is a free spirit etc and he'll never be any different.

I pointed out that it sounded like he was trying to escape being a parent and a partner, he replied by saying hypothetically speaking what would that mean if it were true. I told him it would make me feel very insecure and question his commitment to me, and was it worth carrying on. He got angry with that, and said he wanted to be in a relationship and be a Dad.

Ho hum, things deteriorated after that, much of the same going round in circles, with him not understanding any of my fears and worries. I gave up in the end and went to bed.

We are still ok, the trip is still going ahead, with my blessing (he's going regardless, I may as well be included in the build-up, so I can get a grasp of the risks involved and the precautions taken). I have a lot of thinking to do. I have discussed the above with a mutual friend and his mum, and feel that he his possibly never going to compromise and it's down to me know to decide what the future holds. His mum did say, he once came to her quite upset after another failed relationship, he told her he felt he would never be able to have a long term committed relationship because he couldn't find anyone who wanted the same as him. His mum told him that most women will happily coast along for 3 years, but after that they want some show of commitment. He just didn't get it.

So there you go, not positive, but at least I now have a better insight into how he works, and hopefully I can make a choice that is the best for everyone.

Stella - just wanted to add my voice to the MN chorus pointing out that you would, in all likelihood, be much better off (in every sense) without this man. I cannot believe the cheek of it. You have been so reasonable, considerate and patient but you deserve so much better. Particularly at a time when he should be making you feel more supported than ever. Very best of luck and will be thinking of you. Keep us posted.

Stella, Ido admire you for staying so calm. It's easy to say "leave him" but I know in RL not so simple when it is someone you do love and your children's father.

Re the supportive colleagues - so the people who think it's a great idea happen to be the ones you haven't heard from directly. Hmm. The family and friends you have asked generally have their doubts. His mates at work probably would never do it, they are just jealous because they think he gets to live a pipe-dream while they have to knuckle under.

I think you can take it as a likelihood that is man is quite happy to be dishonest with you, about this and other things.

I do think there are two separate issues here actually.

1. Going away on his own while in a relationship with DC. Of course there are people who do this for valid reasons - for work, or even just for a break, including parents of both sexes, and in itself it is not unreasonable, as a concept.

2. His attitude - his selfishness and naivety. The problem is in the details isn't it?

• he wants to do it when you have a new baby
• he wants to go for an unreasonably long time
• to a dangerous place
• doing a dangerous activity
• involving borrowing a significant sum
• he wants to ditch his job and start a new career at the same time - that is not the time to start being cavalier with your (non-existent) funds!
• he also wants you to support him in hew new, penniless career
• how you think or feel doesn't affect his intentions
• he doesn't mind you carrying the can and his children suffering
• you try for a compromise, he shouts you down.
• he is someone who objected to getting up in the night with a newborn. sorry but that one is baaad!

You are dealing with a very disrespectful, irresponsible partner who, basically, doesn't care about you or his DC. Being fun and engaging with your DD doesn't equate to being a good dad. A godparent, a mate or a dog can have a fun time with a child. A good dad gets up in the night, a good dad cares how they feel, and is there when they need him if he can be - of course some have to be away for work but that is different.

I would just say to him - no. You cannot be in this family and behave like this and call yourself a dad, so you'd better think it through. I would also remind him that all his relationships have broken up and the reason was his uncompromising behaviour, which he interprets as being a "free spirit". When he has DC, that is supposed to change. You sound as if you have a great ability to stay calm, but you don;t have to just let this drop and you don't have to "let" him go with your "blessing".

Hello Stella, just wanted to add my virtual support to you

Agree with Salleroo's very practical post

Great post Muffle.

Yes, great post Muffle

Can I just clarify that I know people have to leave dcs when they are little for their jobs, or other committments etc etc and of course, that can't be helped.

Indeed anyone who has to drag themselves away from their dcs in order to support the family/ serve country/ do other stuff has my utmost admiration.

He, on the other hand, is a twat.

yes, I agree with muffle

he is calling the shots and the choice he is giving you is whether it happens 'with your blessing' or not

Why are YOU the one doing all the thinking about what to do? Why is he not being forced to seriously consider what he wants?

you said in your first post: "I told him it would make me feel very insecure and question his commitment to me, and was it worth carrying on. He got angry with that, and said he wanted to be in a relationship and be a Dad."

you need to take a more active stance on that. This is not about your insecurity or him saying he wants to be a dad, it is about him showing how much that means to him.

He should be showing you how committed he is by completely rethinking this, and if I were you I should be doing what was suggested earlier and looking at a trial separation. Though I would not be going to my mother's house and upsetting my dcs routine. I would be turfing him out, to think it over, and work out exactly what he wants from his life, and what his true priorities are.

You shouldn't feel insecure. You are a woman who has said "I can look after my children on my own for six weeks" without hesitation - that's a very strong thing in my book.

He has had children. That's a done deal. Now he has to work out how his life works with children in it, rather than nancying about saying he 'wants to be in a relationship'. You don't get to decide for him what kind of a man he is going to be. He obviously feels like he hasn't achieved much in his life so far if he is making such big changes at 40 - he could make a real success of being a dad if he wanted. Or he could have nice access weekends and not be part of their life really at all.

You are in grave danger, if you let this happen 'with your blessing', of letting him have his cake and eating it. You may love him, but what example is it to your children that men bog off and do whatever they want, and the only thing that mum gets to choose is whether or not she is annoyed by that.

i am very that he wants to do more trips but he cant fund even this one.

Stella you sound a lovely lady.

Someone earlier (i think was Expat?)asked you if you love yourself.

Some women (strong and intelligent women like you too) will fall in love with unavailable men, men who are hard work or men constantly slip through your fingers and you have to try hard to please/keep them. They tend to idolize (sp?) these men and 'feel special' for managing to keep such a 'special' and 'hard to get man'.

Do you think that maybe you should focus on yourself and WHY you are attracted to this man and this situation?

I hope my post doesn't sound patronizing, i don't mean too. Feel free to tell me to 'fuck off'.

All I can say is make sure your name is nowhere near the loan he is taking out to fund this as it sounds like you will be end up as a single parent to 2 children at some point in the future (sorry to sound harsh) it may not be this trip that splits you up but his behaviour certainly will at some point and the last thing you need is to be paying for it !!!

Oh please invite him onto MN for a web chat so he can explain to the angry mob mumsnetters in his own words why exactly he's insisting on going on this trip? Please?

Oh Stella, you obviously love this man very much, you don't want to be in a position to tell him the relationship is over, because you don't want it to be over, no matter what he does/where he goes. I think I can understand that, Love is blind, you can't stop yourself from being in love with someone, no matter what their faults are. In a younger life, I was very much in love with a guy who didn't know how to care, nor commit to me.

Okay, he is determined to go on this trip, and you believe that you have to sanction it, to keep him at all.
He has to make some commitment to you and the children. In your position, I would firstly
insist that he formalises his relationship with you, and marries you. This is proving his commitment to the family overall. Sod it if he doesn't believe in marriage, doesn't think it'll change anything, I would say "well, it's what I want, do this for me". For me, if he was insistant on going, with the intention of coming back that would be a must.

Secondly, tell him he has to ensure that he can get insurance for this jaunt, for every country that he's planning to go through, £1,000s of medical cover, repatriation cover, and life cover to support you and the children if it all goes belly-up. He HAS to get this information together, prove that the situation can be covered, before you will lift a finger to help with anything else. If he can't make this effort to secure his situation as a father (and husband), then he shouldn't go, as the trip is clearly far too dangerous to contemplate.

Now those are 2 compromises that you are asking of him. They are commitments, but they are actually far less than the commitments he is expecting of you.

If he won't consider them, won't do those things, then (in your shoes) I'd consider the relationship too tenuous to continue. It would break your heart to tell him it's over (It did mine when I finally decided enough was enough), but it would be one sad event, and you will get over it.
If you allow him to continue to take your love and care for granted year after year, to be a lovely dad when he's there, then bit by bit your heart will slowly tear, which will hurt Much more, and be much harder to repair.

Think about it, my love. Will he give you 1/10th of the commitment you have given him?

Look after yourself, and the children. Be kind to yourself.

In a way he's right - all parents are, or should be, held back by their families in that having children should refocus your priorities and make you leave recklessness and selfishness behind. Ideally that should be a good thing - a new stage where you get to grow up and enjoy a different kind of amazing adventure. In that sense you Stella and all of us can probably agree there are things we can't do, or not so easily, now we have DC. But that is just life and the same for all parents - men aren't special delicate flowers who must never be "held back". Being a good parent means taking responsibility.

FGS he didn't have kids until 35-ish did he, so like many of us he had years and years to be a free spirit. I've travelled far and wide, roamed dangerous jungles, teetered along precipices on dodgy buses, drunk too much, had questionable liaisons, been nightclubbing till 6 in the morning and generally "found myself" (if I were to use such a vom-esque expression) - when I was young. That's what being young is for. Now he's supposed to grow up, as you have. It doesn't mean becoming boring but it does mean putting your family first.

Doesn't he understand that what he sees as being a roving, indiana-jones-stylee motorbiking warzone-snapping free spirit is what other people will see as a balding 40-year-old saddo having a selfish midlife crisis when he should be being a man and supporting his family?

Have you kicked him out yet?

Stellamel - I haven't read every single post on this thread but I have read all of yours.

"'I owe it to myself to say I did everything I could.'"

NO - you owe it to yourself and your DCs to say "I didn't burn myself completely out doing his share as well"

Also - do not pay a penny towards this trip.

You'll be lucky if he only ruins you financially, if not emotionally and physically as well

NotPlaying, they're already in negative equity and still have loads to do in their house, he wants to jack in his job to become a photogrpaher (snort) and borrow money for the trip. She's well on the way to being royally screwed financially by this chap and his whims.

stella - hope you don't feel too beaten up by this thread and that you can come to the right decision about the future for you and your dcs.

Muffle's posts are excellent.

Can you imagine what his reaction would be if you said to him "This is a deal-breaker, this relationship is over"? Do you think - deep down - his reaction would be relief?

Also try to visualise your life without him. Is it doable? Could you be happy?

Don't cling to some belief that your dp needs to be part of your day-to-day life. He doesn't.

As others have said, you're clearly a very intelligent woman. I'm sure this will all work out for you.

i know it's been said by a thousand previous posters but this trip, the way it currently stands, with current finances is just not on.

however, i am sympathetic a bit to his desire not to have the same life as 'everybody else' and to settle for a life of 'if onlys' and 'what ifs'.... the difference for me though is i would ALWAYS take my partner and children (if/when we conceive) with me... friends of mine have just had a year out travelling the world with their 3yr old, i have a hankering to moterhome round the national parks of the us and canana en famille... i love to ski and climb mountains but i CAN'T WAIT to teach my kids to (not leave them behind) and i fully expect to decide to up sticks to croft on a remote island one day or caretake a bit of wild land...

what i'm trying to say is that family life doesn't have to be conventional and boring.. families don't hold you back if you love them and want to take them with you...

I feel so sorry for you, you will be PG and he doesn't care

I have met many guys like this in my time, they were fun, wild and exciting for a mad fling but I avoided like the plague when I was looking to settle down and start a family.

Men like this always have a radar for steady, intelligent, strong Women who consistently earn money.

havent read all this thread but i do think you need to think very long and hard about how this will put into debt at a time when you will really need extra money.

If he still wants to go then why cant he just save up like the rest of us has to for our dreams??

Stella this man is very lucky to have you, but he knows that. I am gutted that I cannot say the same for you.

You poor thing.

I feel cross that he will probably,in future years, see his himself as a marvellous free spirit of a father who breezes along every now and then and does something wacky and unconventional with them, and the kids will adore it, and it will take them years to appreciate the reality of the situation.

As someone said earlier, like a favourite uncle or an indulgent godparent...