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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

H admits a "blurred friendship" with another woman - we're at a real crossroads, I don't know which way to go - any advice appreciated

55 replies

tiredofthisrain · 31/07/2009 10:09

This is such a long story so I'll try and keep it short - H and I have 2 small dc's, and moved away from our old town when dc1 was tiny. I had a good job and a big circle of friends, and was sorry to leave that, but thought it would mean a lovely new life in the countryside with our new little family.

It was fine for about 6 months until H got a great job offer where we used to live, which gave us the opportunity to clear our mortgage in a few years. It meant him working away but we decided to go for it as it was such a great chance for him, and ultimately for all of us.

Fast forward a couple of years and dc2 arrived, H was still working away more than ever and I was feeling more and more isolated and unhappy, despite making lots of friends in our new area. The job opportunities for me just aren't here and my family and oldest friends are a very long way away. DC1 also had some health issues, which have been very hard to deal with alone. I tried to tell H how I was feeling but nothing seemed to change and I became so exhausted it was hard to see a way out.

Last weekend I had a call from the husband of H's work colleague, a woman who I knew he'd been friends with for a long time. He basically told me an affair had been going on for some weeks, and sent me transcripts of texts to back it up. I knew this woman had cheated on her H previously, as my H had told me about it some time ago. I'd always had a healthy suspicion of her, but H had always said they were just friends. I've never had any reason to disbelieve him before.

The texts, although not sexual, are very affectionate, and refer to a night which she spent in his hotel room (after lying to her H about where she was) when they were apparently talking about the problems in her marriage. H swears blind to me (and his mother!) that there has been no physical relationship, and he's never been known to lie to me before, but fully admits that he knew I would not have been happy with anyone visiting his room, and that he should have told me. He also admits that the line has been crossed in terms of sending affectionate texts.

Where the hell do we go from here? My reaction on finding this out was to leave immediately with the dc's and stay at a friends. This shocked H to the core, as I've never done anything like this before. I couldn't speak to him for 24 hours but then he came to see me, and there actually felt like there may be a way back. I'm now back at home, but have told him I consider us separated. There is lots of talking to do.

What do I do now? He's already spoken to the woman to clear the air and I'm certain he's not planning on leaving for her - he's certainly had the chance. He's also agreed that we need to move house, but hasn't really given me as much reassurance as I feel I need to carry on our marriage. Am so very confused. I still love him, but feel he's really neglected us for the past couple of years and with this on top I'm not sure if we can get past it.

OP posts:
BennyAndJoon · 31/07/2009 15:11

I hope you don't mind me saying this but..

Even if he said there was no physical stuff, you don't know that for sure. You should get yourself checked out at a GUM clinic. (I would tell him you intend to do this)

So sorry you are going through this though. Take time before you make any decisions, and make sure you eat!

countingto10 · 31/07/2009 15:15

TBH as far as Relate is concerned, how effective it is depends on the therapist. I think we have been very lucky - she does private work as well. We know people who have used her and have been impressed. She readily admits there are therapists put there who haven't sorted there own problems out and are trying to sort other peoples.

You have got to decide whether you want to make a go of your marriage and he has got to be fully on board as well. Has he anyone in his life who will tell it as it is ? My Dh had a lot of people around him telling him the most important thing in life is family, your children especially. One friend (who is spanish and catholic) told him that it doesn't matter what has gone on in the marriage, you sort it out and get on with it as you have 4 DC and that is what matters, no ifs, buts or anything else - you have 4 DC that's it. He needed people to tell him this as he was in such a bad place mentally (with a lot of stresses from the business, financial and some bloodly OW pulling his strings and pressing his buttons (less said about that the better)).

It sounds like he needs a good wake up call as far as what really matters is concerned. My DH now realises that even if we lose everything ie house, car, business etc, as long as we have each other and the DC that is all that matters. And I have realised that too.....

tiredofthisrain · 31/07/2009 15:16

Benny, the only positive to all this is that I have finally lost all my baby weight and am now fitting into size ten clothes!! I'm running on some kind of auto pilot, it's just all so exhausting.

OP posts:
tiredofthisrain · 31/07/2009 15:19

Counting, I told his brother as I knew he'd give him a kick up the backside (he was cheated on and is very blunt to say the least about his views). The family attitude on his side is supportive but definitely seems to err on the side of "don't stay together just for the children", - they've all been divorced at some point, so it's almost normal. Nobody in my family has ever divorced so they'd be horrified at this.

OP posts:
countingto10 · 31/07/2009 15:25

I have been divorced before and know how devastating it is for all concerned. Previous H was an alcoholic and I left for my and DS1 safety - it was a no brainer. But I decided that I didn't to go through that ever again. DH's sister went through a terrible divorce, numerous court hearings and two extremely damaged children at the end of it - so he was aware of the implications (but OW told him the children would be OK and he believed her . Our 2 youngest still have separation issues about him (from the 2 months he was away) and it has taken a lot of bridge building with DS1.

You have to do what you want to do. For me, I knew I really loved my DH and I thought he and the DC were worth trying to save the marriage for, if that makes sense.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 31/07/2009 16:19

Tired- the more I read from you, the more I just KNOW you're going to find that book helpful.

My situation was: my DH had an affair last year after 24 years of marriage. Had never happened before. Was always completely defined by work and had two bad knockbacks and hated his then job. Woman he used to work with got in touch out of the blue via work E mail. They started secret, but fairly innocent correspondence, all the while she was claiming to be happily married. She filled his head with how wonderful he was, how handsome he was and how every woman they used to work with had fancied him and this must have been like nectar to him, as he was by that time much greyer and fatter!

He says he felt he couldn't tell me about it, because I had always been extremely wary of this woman. She had made overt attempts to get him to have an affair with her years previously, which he turned down. Despite this, I'd say we were the least possessive or jealous couple we knew. In truth, we were just bloody complacent.

He (like your DH) would have rathered pulled teeth than talk about any problems in our relationship. I can see now that I stopped trying to an extent to resolve some of our issues, because after 24 years of trying to get him to change, I thought that he couldn't. Despite this, I would have said at that time that we were very happy, but we didn't have anything like the wondeful marriage that we have now. One of the things I have learned is that affairs do happen in happy marriages.

My DH (like yours) has never been a great "friend maker" or "keeper" for that matter. He is on the surface the most gregarious, sociable character, but I always felt he wasn't really terribly interested in other people. Almost all of our many friends over the years have been made by me, but nevertheless, these people dearly love DH because he is a very kind man who in the past showed his affection for people by doing things for them, rather than by talking to them.

Over the course of about 10 months, OW repeatedly asked whether he would meet up with her. He kept saying no.

This woman had also constantly played the victim card. She left 5 places of work to my certain knowledge because of unfounded allegations of bullying and was always making spurious complaints about people. She then started telling my DH how unhappily married she was. My DH saw himself as a "rescuer" and believed all this nonsense.

He agreed to meet her and I have finally got him to admit, that he told himself that as she'd done the chasing, he wasn't as responsible. At the point of agreeing to meet her, she then very explicitly told him what she would like to do with him at that meeting and he agreed.

He told himself that this was going to be a bit of escapism and fun, something that wouldn't harm us, as I'd never find out. He knew this woman was just froth and he says he never, ever wanted to leave me or saw her as an alternative. As it was the first time he had ever done this though, he became a bit of a wreck and started to behave very badly at home. He lost his temper over trivia, picked fault with everything and everyone etc. etc.

He met this woman twice for sex. On both occasions, the sex itself was disastrous, but it was illicit and therefore exciting. What was far more exciting and addictive, it seems, was the constant texting, e mails and to a much lesser extent, phone calls.

She was a very needy, demanding person though. Her previous bunny boiler tendencies started to show in earnest and although he was getting massively stressed about it all and wanted out of it, he feared a massive fall-out if he ended it with her. He did however refuse to meet her again and urged her to make a go of things with her husband, whom she was now painting as completely expendable. This just made her more and more angry and his stress levels were going through the roof.

When I found out (texts on an old phone, so completely accidental discovery) he says that despite the absolute horror of discovery, he also felt massive relief that he was now able to get out of this destructive relationship. He ended it with her immediately.

A year on, it has been the hardest thing we have ever faced, as individuals or as a couple. My DH went for counselling on his own and you would be amazed at the changes in him. We've learned so much together about our relationship, us as people and the changes we needed to make. It turns out that throughout our relationship, he always felt a bit in my shadow. In his perspective, I was the better-looking one, the one with more professional success, more friends etc. etc. I have also acknowledged that I thought that too, much as it shames me even now to admit that. We both also felt (but this was unspoken) that he loved me more than I loved him. Of the many great gifts that has come out of this crisis is the certain knowledge that we both love each other in equal measure.

He is not lazy any longer, lost loads of weight and our sex life has been amazingly wonderful since discovery day. He will now happily talk for hours and is the most open person you could imagine. All his previous wonderful traits are still there (kindness, compassion) but there are now loads more.

There are still difficult days and weeks sometimes. There is a terrible loss of innocence, but trust has returned. Complacency has been banished though. Like you, I reasoned that he couldn't be having an affair because of how he looked. How complacent was that? But understandable! The OW's H was 12 years younger, good looking and fit too, apparently.

He now knows his weak spot is damsels in distress and he realises that his protector role is now confined to people he loves.

That protection role extends to protecting himself too. He now says that he could never do it again to HIM let alone me.

Glad you've got RL support. Wise not to tell your family.

DandyLioness · 31/07/2009 17:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StirlingTheTired · 31/07/2009 18:06

Can definitely recommend the book "Not Just Good Friends" - It helped me alot during the first few months of finding out about h's affair.

My story is quite like yours tiredofthisrain - He was working away. Friends with this woman - I never questioned it because I was stupid enough to trust him totally and he had had female friends before. He enjoys talking and listening to women.

But this time it went alot further.

The worst thing is a feeling of being totally let down by the person I never thought would do that to me.

Your h is definitely saying the right things but, one word of advice (I was given this at the time from another mumsnetter) - It isn't what he says that matters but what he does.
He can promise all-sorts but just watch what he does.

Good Luck

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 31/07/2009 18:35

Good to hear from you Stirling. Always wonder how you are. I agree 100% with what you say. In my case, my DH was absolutely horrified by the pain he had caused and has done everything in his power to make this up to me. On this occasion, his actions mirrored his words.

Tired, you will feel physical pain at times - that is normal. You will want to hug him and hurt him in the same hour. It is post-traumatic shock for you at the moment, especially after the way you found out.

My DH frequently tells me how sorry he is - and I know that he is.

If you do want to rebuild, take it as a wonderful opportunity to get the marriage you have always deserved. Although I wouldn't have wanted the last year for a pension, I can see now that what I have now with my DH is so much better than we had before. Nevertheless, I still mourn the loss of complete belief and innocence. It's so hard to know that the person who should have been the most loyal to you, was once so terribly disloyal.

Try and find out in the next few days what need this woman fulfilled in him. Was it, as you suspect, a need for a deep friendship at last? A need for intimacy? A need to be attended to and adored? A sexual need? There are always needs in these situations. Your H might have trouble admitting this, to himself as well as you.

In one of our many long chats, I was honest with my DH about the needs I had that he hadn't been fulfilling. I was also honest enough to admit to him that the children were my greatest barrier to having an affair myself - because I have always believed that you don't mess around with children's lives.

What was he telling her about his marriage? Again, my DH didn't fit the usual stereotype. He repeatedly told OW that he loved me, would never leave me and he cannot recall a single instance of disparaging me to her, despite her many attempts. This actually angered her terribly and at least on two occasions, she was exasperated and asked him why was he seeing her. He says he replied that he didn't know. However, this OW didn't need for my DH to be in a loveless marriage to justify the affair to herself. In fact, I think she saw it as more of a challenge to try and get a man to leave a happy marriage.

So be prepared for all the stuff you've previously thought to be turned on its heads.

What is interesting however is how much in common a lot of the OW written about on here have with eachother. Yours, mine and lots of others got their mothers to collude in this - so not as unusual as you think, but as you say, very warped. No old friends and few female friends full stop. No guilt or shame thereafter, just hate for the woman and children whose lives they have infected.

tiredofthisrain · 31/07/2009 19:33

whenwillI, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. I think I've been a bit naive - and as H is in a powerful position at work, I should have realised that alone would make him attractive to a certain kind of woman.

Funnily enough, OW's H told me that she didn't have many friends, so he tried to encourage the friendships she did have, although he always had reservations about the one with my H.. When I met her she seemed nice enough, but I was aware she was checking me out, and our home (she and her H came over one day.) It emerges that H has told me far more than she ever told her H, she lied about every meeting, possibly because of her previous affair, or probably because she felt guilty that the friendship wasn't as innocent as it should have been.

And I also asked what he'd told her about me and he said he'd never criticised me, quite the opposite. This fits with my friends perception of our relationship too.

Regarding the physical side, H seems to think that what he's done doesn't constitute a full blown affair (although he is admitting he has been stupid, and apologising) and it was only ever a friendship which got a bit confused. He seems genuinely shocked that I would think he'd slept with her - at one point I even thought he'd brought her to our home and he was upset that had even crossed my mind. I can't work out whether he was being incredibly naive in his dealings with her (she clearly didn't feel it was innocent) or I am being now.. I think in reality they were caught before it could go further, and can't help wondering what would have happened if her H hadn't been suspicious enough to start checking texts..

OP posts:
tiredofthisrain · 02/08/2009 15:05

I spoke to h properly about all of this yesterday and now feel even worse. He's admitting nothing other than what was discovered, maintaining this was just a friendship that crossed a couple of lines, and that no physical involvement was there. He isn't being as reassuring as I need, and won't even agree not to stay friends with her, as he says it's a very long standing friendship and he only has few real friends.. I'm inclined to believe it, but it isn't the point, it's all caused such upset it can't just be swept under the carpet, but neither do I want to bring it up endlessly as I know that won't help anything.

He says he definitely isn't in love with her, and doesn't want to leave for her and has told her so, yet he doesn't seem as bothered as I need him to be about staying either. He's trotted out the classic line, I love you but I'm not in love with you He doesn't think a counsellor would be able to help as he knows what he thinks. I've been trying to save this relationship for a long time but really don't think he's wired up the same way as me - I don't get his emotional disinterest in people (wondering again if this is some kind of mild ASD thing)

Do I need to get on with making solicitor's appointments now? I can't stay in this weird limbo any more.

OP posts:
Nancy66 · 02/08/2009 15:17

The old 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' line really pisses me off. It doesn't mean anything for a start.

he has betrayed you with this woman. Even if it's not sexual it is still a huge emotional betrayal. he's saying the things to her that he should be saying to you. Sometimes talking is the most intimate and revealing thing we can do with another person and he's chosen to do that with someone else.

he's hurt you but he's not prepared to mend it by ending his friendship with the one person that is threatening your marriage.

I know I am not in your shoes but it doesn't sound as though he has much respect for you and your marriage. My fear would be that even if this is not an affair at the moment then it will become so.

tiredofthisrain · 02/08/2009 16:00

Nancy, me too. I don't get where he's going with that comment. It's like he can't get that once children come along, some sacrifices do need to be made and that there is a big burden of work which comes with raising two little ones. If asked to share it, he withdraws and becomes resentful.

He really also resents and belittles the time I've spent helping dc1 with his issues, and as a parent, I really can't get my head round that mentality. Surely any parent would do anything possible to help their child.. and any good husband would be supportive through it, rather than withdrawn and sullen.

I feel so let down by him.

OP posts:
dollius · 02/08/2009 17:49

Put your foot down.

Either he tells you the full truth, agrees to end this "friendship", goes to counselling with you, and works out a solution to your living arrangements, then he's out.

He's just not taking this seriously.

If he wants your marriage to work, he needs to step up now.

Sorry, but if he won't do any of those things then he just doesn't care enough about keeping your family together.

And I would seriously question whether it is more important to get your mortgage paid off early or to make your marriage work.

tiredofthisrain · 02/08/2009 20:01

THat's the worst thing - I don't think he does seem to care about keeping the family together. He's so cold about it all and seems totally in denial about the pain that splitting would cause everyone, and repeats the mantra that (in his opinion) people should never stay together for the children, and he isn't going to stay with me if he isn't totally happy. Yet he's had every chance to leave and is still here - he could be with the OW right now as she's left her H.

It's so especially cruel that he's blaming me for pushing him away when dc1's problems started. I'd only just had dc2 then, and was dealing with both of them alone, while trying to run round getting help for dc1.

I think I need to get really tough but I just feel so very sick, sad and alone. My family are going to be utterly horrified when I tell them. I just need a bit of courage to take the next step.

OP posts:
dollius · 02/08/2009 20:09

He wants you to end the relationship so that he can blame you for splitting up the family and separating him from his kids.

That's why you need to be telling your family about all this now. To get support and understanding from them and to ensure he can't pull that sort of crap later on.

tiredoftherain · 02/08/2009 20:53

I've told his family what's going on! I think with my family there would really be no going back as they dislike him anyway, I just wanted to make sure there was no chance of sorting it before I did something permanent. They are unlikely to find out unless I tell them, but can obviously sense something's up as they keep asking if I'm ok.

The weird thing is that H was apparently very upset when I left last weekend, he said how sorry he was and promised to set changes in motion. MIL even said she'd never seen him so upset. So why a week later do I feel like we're right back where we started and it was all empty promises?

DollyPS · 03/08/2009 02:03

Oh honey I'm sorry.

you guys need to do some serious talking and he needs to be being honest with you.

He may have done nothing yet, but this is a wakeup of the highest order - he is the culprit here, you and the children are victims, get angry, stay angry, and make him step up to the relationship.

but sadly I suspect the lying toerag wants out of your relationship, but is too much of a pathetic spineless coward to actually end it himself. He wants you to throw him out, so he can go to the next woman all hurt and wet-eyed and spin her a line about how his mean old wife just threw him out , and he can weep on her shoulder about how trusting he was and how he needs a wonderful woman to help re-build his trust

What can I say, you don't deserve this.

tiredoftherain · 03/08/2009 11:46

The more I talk to people about this (cried when our lovely cleaner came round this morning and asked if everything was ok..), the more I can see from their reactions that I'm not the one going insane and I really do not deserve this. It's such a relief after years of keeping quiet and being told I should just get on with things. My close friends are totally horrified at how H has behaved, and I'm trying to use the angry energy to give me the strength to stand up to him.

I can also see from reading some emotional abuse threads that he's using lots of tactics in any discussions with me. He basically keeps very calm and cold, and denies what I know to be the truth until I get virtually hysterical at the unfairness of it all. It's not a healthy discussion, he has a real note of impatience in his voice. The events of last week have been totally rewritten and I'm now at fault for believing what the OW's H had to say. Apparently he is unstable, on drugs and an abuser (!) so everything he says should be discredited regardless of the evidence he has!

He has at least agreed to go to Relate now, as I feel I need them for mediation, hopefully a witness in the room won't let him wriggle out of things the way he has done. I wish I never had to see him again.

Nancy66 · 03/08/2009 11:59

What about a period of separation? A month maybe. it will get the message home that you really mean business plus you won't have to deal with the horrible atmosphere in the house.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/08/2009 12:29

Tired. I don't think Relate can or will help if emotional abuse is suspected.

I agree with earlier advice that a period of separation is what's called for here - you need to regain control of the situation.

If he's saying that he still wants this friendship and is even saying that her H is the one who is deranged, then it certainly is not over between them, what ever did or didn't happen in the past.

Perhaps he's still buying into the story that her H is a bastard etc., but you know yourself that this man sounded lovely, but very hurt. You also know by your own moral code that even if this man IS flawed, her way of dealing with it (i.e. having affairs) is wrong.

Your H clearly is still protecting her, when he should be protecting you and your marriage. He needs clear boundaries from you. Once a friendship has crossed the line, there is no going back and for you, it should be an absolute minimum condition that this friendship is severed. If he can't do that, then you have your answer.

I also think when someone trots out the old "I'm not in love with you..." line, it is time to go. Time for you to find someone who is.

Don't even care if he blames you for throwing in the towel (which he will). It sounds like this man likes to rewrite events to suit his agenda. You know the truth and one day, so will your children.

Believe me, you will feel so much better when you regain control.

tiredoftherain · 03/08/2009 13:15

Sorry to go on, I just feel the need to talk about this at the moment, I really appreciate all of your contributions.

I've also read that about Relate not being able to deal with EA situations, I've just booked an appointment with a counsellor for me alone tomorrow, so I'll see what they say. I want to make sure that I keep putting the children first in all of this, and that if we can salvage any kind of amicable relationship out of it, it would certainly be best for the children.

It's just the cold way he says his feelings have changed towards me, and that these things happen, which is so incredibly hurtful given the circumstances of the past couple of years, and so dismissive of the happiness we once had. I can't help wondering if there is some elaborate plot between him and OW to end their respective relationships, let the dust settle and then set up together.

countingto10 · 03/08/2009 14:26

My DH had convinced himself that he no longer loved me or wanted to be with me. With the "help" of the OW who had set her cap at him, he left me and 4DC. I had no idea anything was wrong. OW had convinced him the children wouldn't suffer and continued to press his buttons and pull his strings. His attitude to me during this time was disgusting, cold, vicious and plain old nasty - obviously reflecting her.

He was going through a breakdown at the time which all his closest family and friends could see but this damned woman couldn't. His closest friend (who was the only one who really knew what was going on) saw him at her house one day and realised he was suicidal (OW was soooo pleased she had him she could see what was going on in front of her eyes) and told him he needed to leave before he died. Thank god he listened to him.

I'm afraid until and unless he comes to his senses, you are not going to get very far.

I initially booked up to see Relate on my own and in the end DH came with me as he had managed to escape OW clutches. He is so ashamed, embarrassed, repulsed, angry etc, etc, about everything that happened that I actually think he is suffering more than me as he has to live with what he has done to his family. He is dreading DS1 GCSE's results coming in as he left just before he took them. OW again telling him everything would OK. He just doesn't know what he was thinking at the time - he knows any sane person comtemplating leaving their wife would wait until DS had taken exams not leave two weeks before.

You need to get on with your life and plan things without him for the time being. Go to Relate and solicitors and get all the information you need.

Good luck.

tiredoftherain · 03/08/2009 14:34

I have wondered if H is having some stress induced breakdown. He has been vile for the past year, and working ridiculous hours even though we didn't need him to financially. You're right though, I can't seem to do anything to bring him to his senses, so I need to step away.

Am now feeling very nervous of telling my parents. They are traditional and pretty conservative, and this will worry them into a frenzy. I worry that they will panic, say I won't be able to cope, and that this will then panic me. They aren't known for being level in a crisis, which is why I've avoided telling the anything so far. For example, my mum is currently in tears having fallen out with my sister over (a perfectly reasonable) house they want to buy, but that they don't think is good enough. That consitutes a crisis in their book..

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/08/2009 14:52

Tired - wish a MNetter called Pramspotter would come on to this thread - she will tell you (as will I and countless others) that NOTHING makes a man so cold and dispassionate to their wives like another woman waiting in the wings. I remember Counting's thread earlier this year, which comprised a lot of bewildered but strong women who were utterly puzzled at their menfolk's changed behaviour.

I remember urging them to consider "the elephant in the room" and sure enough, one by one, nearly all of these men turned out to have other women. It's like a script.

And I think you're absolutely right about this plot. I think that's exactly what your H and OW have cooked up, I'm afraid. It's horrible, disingenuous and deceitful, but your H clearly hasn't got the balls to be up front and honest and needs this to be your fault. Then when you tell him to sling his hook, he can throw his hands up in exasperation and say "I've tried, but it's not going to work".

Some men come to their senses before it's too late (so pleased for you Counting) but you will see from countless threads on here that this never happens without their wives regaining control and issuing ultimatums. Sadly, it often takes the realisation that they will really lose you, before these men really wake up and come to their senses.

You are wise to go to counselling alone. It doesn't sound as though your H would approach counselling in the right frame of mind anyway at the moment and I do think some couples turn to counselling too early. But you need immediate help and so I'm glad you're going.

You're right about wanting what's best for the children, but it's never best for them to have a parent who would rather be elsewhere. Children sense so much. In any case, if you ask him to leave for now, you can possibly explain away his absence quite easily, given that he is away often anyway. I don't agree with telling children about difficulties until you are both really sure you're relationship is over.

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