men and affairs

[notconvinced]

why do men have affairs and can a leopard really ever change it's spots

Flum I didn't mean to suggest you can't have an opinion if you've not experienced something. Your opinion is as valid as the next person.What I was trying to say to the many MN contributors on threads such as this whopoint blankly say "if he strays he's out!" When it happens to you it's not so staight forward. Anyway we are doing well and we managed to a great extent to keep the children out of most of the awfulness that we went through last year as a result of my dh's affair. A family after all is not just about the relationship of the adults and although I would never suggest to someone to stay if they were so miserable their life was hell I do feel as a society these days we give up rather tooeasily (perhaps because we can). I recall reading an article in the Times a few months ago about a man who'd left his first wife and family for a "mistress" and a few years on he basically said -if he'd known then what he knew now about life/ grass is greener etc he'd have been kinder to his first wife and made more of a go of it. I think perhaps we expect too much all the time from relationships these days. Just my opinion! Thanks for your comments flum.

Maturer - I basically agree with you. Thats exactly what my dad said about the grass is greener - he said it wasn't

better the devil you know eh!

not that my mums a devil, and I'm sure you're not either

People do it because they want to, and they don't care enough about anyone else to think of the consequences

my dad had an affair about 8 years ago and split up with my mum. basically my mum is an alcoholic and he fell out of love with her(amongst other reasons). the woman he started an affair with is so lovely and they are still together now. we get on so well together, almost like best friends.

my mum has had other blokes but everyone says she still loves my dad, unfortunately i found out after they split that my mum had had an affair with my dads best friend early on in their marriage and my dad had tried to make it all work for me and my bro. it didnt but im so pleased my dad has someone now that he is happy with!!

sorry, crass over simplification on my part

not really happy berries - sometimes it is that simple

sweet monkey - just goes to show there are so many possible reasons and outcomes its all toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo grey.

exactly. let em get on with is what i say. anything for an easy life

i think that every man on the planet would have an affair if they thought they'd get away with it. The only difference between individual men is their risk assessment. Some men would never dare because of the risk of getting caught, most would do it if they felt the chance of getting caught was slim, and some men dont care if they get caught.
Say to any man on the face of the earth, if you could have no strings attached meaningless sex with someone who was not your partner and you could guarantee 100% no one will ever find out, would you do it? 99% would say Hell yes, and the other 1% would lie.

not convinced, i think a leopard probably can change his spots. my dh had an affair a year ago. i think what is hard is believing he can change his spots. i really think my dh's affair shocked him and i don't think he would do it again. but, fully believing and trusting that is a very hard thing to do. i think i more very strongly hope he won't rather than implicitly trust he won't. i think he believs he won't but then i think that if i'd asked him if he would a month before he had the affair he would have said no.
mytwopenceworth, i think it was the fact that my dh was prepared to risk losing me and the children was one thing that hurt the most. he said he didn't think of it like that, but that seems even worse to me!

Mytwopenceworth, what a load of rubbish. You mean that men are basically dogs and women are saints? Don't make me laugh. How about this for a revolutionary idea - i haven't had an affair because I'm happy with my wife. Also some women are not very nice, have you thought of that? Some men have affairs because their current relationship is rubbish, just like some women.

HD totally agree with what you said. just also to apologise for not replying to yr ealier quest. i have big HUGE virus thingy on my comp and dont wanna log into my email at mo to get info. hope yr well

happydaddy. i respect your right to disagree with me. i began my post with I believe. I am entitled to my pov. My opinion is exactly that. Mine. and I have as much right to it as anyone else to theirs. I would never tell someone their opinion was a load of rubbish as i do not believe that to respond in such a way encourages open debate. My opinion is based on my experience and of witnessing girlfriends relationships and also discussions with male friends who, to a man, have said yes, they would if they could be assured of getting away with it - perhaps i associate with the wrong people... As to women being saints, I don't believe I mentioned women at all in my post, the subject under discussion is men and affairs.
I enjoy debate on an issue and enjoy hearing other people's points of view.
I DO believe that men and women are fundementally different in many ways. If i felt that this was an environment that would lend itself to mutually respectful debate, I would have enjoyed discussing that further. You were of course, free to tell me point by point in a polite manner how wrong you feel my pov is and why, if you so wished, but I would be most grateful if you could refrain from rubbishing my right to an opinion. Many thanks and best wishes. xx

Well, tbh, I completely understand why happydaddy rubbished your point of view, because if you are a man who wouldnt have an affair even if they could get away with it then I think you are bound to be extremely insulted by your generalisation. Yes people are entiteld to their points of view, but what you said had the potential to insult. Its the same as if a man said all women are dippy and cant reverse park, its a pov but is it right to be insulting? I think that the notion that all men would if they could removes some of their responsibility, but making out they are all animals provides an excuse for some of the very cruel decisions men and women take that hurt others.

Bloody hell, never thought I would side with a man on the issue of affairs

My2p: You have a very low opinion of men, which makes me feel quite sad.

yes, i can see your point of view, i understand that a man would read that i think 'i wouldnt' and be offended, yes i can understand your perspective that it is a generalisation. I view this, however, in terms of biology, nature, survival of the fitest. males are genetically programmed to fertilise as many females as possible in order to maximise the chance that their genes will carry forward into the next generation. human beings are animals. we are no different in the instincts that drive us than any other creature. this is displayed, in my opinion, in many ways. what prevents all human males from routinely behaving in this way is social. fear of consequences. in human society the instinct of a male to pass his genes on is often offset by the fear of loosing his mate. hence my opinion that not 'getting away with it' is what prevents this behaviour. a human male bonds with a female and sets up home, this gives better guarantee that offspring survive - 2 parents, protection and food. many other species do the same. other parallels are the desire to be 'alpha male', in lions they fight to the death, or until one runs off and is therefore banished! the females are drawn to the strongest male, the one with 'better' genes. in modern day humans, females may be drawn to the rich man, the man with the flash car, the handsome man (sure sign of 'good' genes !!), or whatever - symbols of success = strength = better genes. Men compete with one another for 'position', aggressive driving, sports, many ways to demonstrate their superiority. We ARE animals, at the end of the day. I am aware I am not expressing myself very well, and apologise if my post is hard to follow!! but this is only my opinion, I expect a lot of beatings for it!

i dont understand how anyone is can justify rubishing anyones pov. its not what debating is about. thats just plain rude.

I just wrote a really long reply then and lost it, will try again!

I understand the logic behind your argument my2pw, but I think its too simplistic. Isnt it ethics and morals that set us aside from animals? Animals behave in all sorts of ways that we do not.

The impression you give is that men would shag anything if they thought they could get away with it, I think thats a different argument from whether people (because I think it equally could be applied to women) would have sex with a person they met and found attractive if they could 100% guarantee they would get away with it. Would I? Not sure tbh, like to think I never would, have seen the devastation caused by affairs, and have been betrayed myself, wouldnt ever want to cause that pain to the person I loved.

As a point of interest, out of the friends I know who have done it, its a pretty equal split between men and women.

Sobernow, interesting arguments, not heard them before.

PTP - yes peoples points of views matter, and debate is important, but would you take someone coming on here and making a sweeping statement about women and not come back at it?

actually yes. you could say i am a no good loudmouth piece of monkey shite for all i care. as long as you start with 'in my opinion'its called freedom of speech. anyway, makes you wonder why everyones getting so hot under the collar about it. touched a nerve?

erm, pinkmama, sobernow was agreeing and continuing my point - she was saying the same thing as me about instinct! how can you say im simplistic and that she raises good points when we are making the exact same basic point, that it is instinct, genetics etc? - feeling picked on! x
its actually a huge and complex thing, it would just take me weeks to talk about it in detail!! if it sounds simplistic, its cos im not putting it across well.
ethics and morals? societys invention??? Necessary development to ensure that we co-exist together??? Because it is beneficial for the species to live in groups - better protection, sharing of tasks, gathering food etc etc. We may be intellegent animals (may be!!) but we are still animals.
where any group lives together, there must be rules, or the group will break down and the benefits (protection etc etc) are lost.
actually, animals behave in the same way as us, sort of. by this i mean we have common motivations in all our actions, but our ways and means are different. we have different ways of ensuring that our basic needs are met, but those basic needs are the same. food, shelter, reproduction etc. we just all go about it differently.
im sorry that i am not putting this clearly, not so good at expressing myself, just hope that you are getting what i am trying to say.

passtheprozac - you are a loudmouthed piece of monkey shite, IMO

and i think people dont like being reminded we are just monkeys! (or monkeyshit in your case!)

Mytwopenceworth, I never knew that David Attenborough was a Mumsnetter, pleased to meet you.
Instinct and genetic programming? I thought humans emerged from the cave and rose above all that to create the society we live in now.
If all men will have affairs then why do women get married, have monogomous relationships with men in the first place?
I didn't rubbish your right to a pov, i rubbished your pov as overly simplistic and a huge generalisation. If I said that all women should stay at home, churning out babies and looking after the cave, I would be rightly accused of generalisation.

And if we lived by instinct, as you seem to think we do, then why would war and famine bring protests and opposition? Animals kill each other all the time and you don't see herds of wilidebeest waving placards saying "stop the genocide", do you?
Instinct and animalistic tendencies do play a part but reason and our ability to make choices set us apart. I choose not to cheat on my partner and plenty of people I know choose the same. Just because you're experiences are different doesn't mean they apply to society as a whole.