Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

988 replies

oneplusone · 19/05/2009 11:52

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

OP posts:
BopTheAlien · 16/07/2009 23:51

Sorry to jump in with no reference to anybody else. I have to talk about the death stuff. As some of you know, I was a replacement baby. My parents' first daughter died aged about 10 weeks, and I was born one year later. My due date was actually the day after the anniversary of her death, and my mother told me once that she was worried I would arrive on that anniversary. (I was 10 days late in fact.) So. That was all the grieving they did for the loss of a child. Three months. If that. I mourned my miscarriage longer than that, and time certainly wasn't on my side then. They claim that that was the prevailing advice at the time, have another baby and get over it, which is probably true - but my parents are fantastic at being non-conformist and anti-authoritarian when it suits them, so obviously they took this on board because it was what they wanted to hear. Because my mother had no intention of ever bothering to feel or process her own grief and trauma. Why bother when you can have a baby daughter whom you can use to do it all for you? Feeling all that pain and grief is so messy, don't you know, gets in the way of being normal and happy and having a normal, functional life and LOOKING NORMAL TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD, which is the most important thing after all. They didn't want to be "the couple with the dead baby". (My mother has actually told me that.) They wanted to be Mr and Mrs 2.4 children and so I was conceived. The actual roots of my existence are in their denial of what had actually happened. I was supposed to complete the picture, take away the pain, sort everything out. Can any of you imagine how it feels to have that burden placed on your shoulders before you've even been born? I hope and think you can.

It gets worse though in a way. Apart from the fact I felt existentially guilty for being alive, as if I'd stolen someone else's place, which they exacerbated by treating me very much like Pinky's parents - the endless, endless name calling and shouting and accusing and blaming and threatening, all dressed up as if it was completely normal behaviour and we were a happy, close, loving family. Apart from the fact of always feeling second best, like she was the one they'd really wanted (thanks, Dad, for the time you said to me "well, yes, in an ideal world of course she wouldn't have died", ergo in an ideal world I wouldn't have been born. THANKS.) Feeling like she was the one they would have really loved. Feeling like she would have been so good and lovely and well behaved and perfect in every way that they would never have shouted at her, ignored her, allowed her to be bullied by just about everyone she came into contact with, made her feel terrified just to be alive. Apart from feeling that virtually nothing stood between me and death the whole of my life. Feeling that I had to constantly "hold on" tight to life itself, could never relax and just trust it or take it for granted, because if I didn't hold on with all my strength it could be taken away from me too. They hadn't saved her - they had let her die - why not me too? I had chronic asthma all through my childhood and beyond, I want to add. Apart from feeling that she was somehow infinitely more special than I could ever be, by virtue of having died - my mother used to sit and weep whenever references to sick babies were on TV for example, as if I just wasn't there. I NEVER touched her heart in that way, and that was the only thing I really craved for many, many years. To matter to her, to be let right into the deepest part of her heart - the place where parents are supposed to feel their love for their children. Apart from the fact that I was brought up to feel that I wasn't actually ALLOWED to die prematurely because I wouldn't be doing my job of protecting them from the pain of her death then, it would be too much for them if I died too, so it would be like a criminal offence against them if, having been born for that specific purpose, I then "welched" on my job. I was born to serve them, after all; not to have the right to live and enjoy my own life for myself.

Apart from all that, I have now come to realise that there was a - conflicting - non-verbal message from then that told me they actually did want me to die too. My mother used to tell me these gruesome stories - "oh, you mustn't go to bed with the tie of that nightdress undone, because once there was a little girl who went to sleep wearing a necklace, and in the morning her parents came in and found her dead, strangled by her necklace which had tightened itself round her throat in the night." "Oh, you mustn't ever play in the fridge, because once there was a little boy who climbed in and got locked in and his parents came back and found him frozen to death." Is is just me or was the woman completely bonkers? Given the family history, which they had made me aware of all too early? Can you imagine how terrified I was? It wasn't even safe to go to SLEEP. No wonder I have insomnia now. But thinking about the messsage behind it - there was like a warning - don't take any risks at all whatsoever; more, you have to think of EVERYTHING and be prepared for EVERYTHING, because EVERYTHING is potentially fatal, and if you do get into trouble, WE won't be there to help you out. You're in this on your own, kid. Which was the absolute truth. They never were there for me, ever; I always was completely on my own.

As I've said, I had chronic asthma, and could never even leave the house without my inhaler from the age of six onwards. That puts a real damper on childhood spontaneity. I used to fantasise about being able to go out without carrying ANYTHING, without needing any pockets or bag at all. About being free, not having to carry this burden round with me the whole tine. These were the days before the puffer sprays we have now, the inhaler I had then was a complicated propeller type affair, you had to put a capsule into a little compartment, then puncture it using a slidey shunt thing, then stick it in your mouth and it whizzed round and nade an awful noise and shot this horrible dry powder into your lungs. It always made me thirsty so it was hard to do it on the hoof but I had to do it four times a day so obviously I did do it and just had to put up with the yucky dry feeling. It meant I also had to have the capsules with me if I was out for any length of time; and they got sticky and didn?t work so well if they got hot so there was that to think about too, if I wanted to stick it in my pocket, and just this sense of being burdened. The damn thing also had to be cleaned regularly as the powder would stick to the propellers in time, and I hated hated hated doing that. I hated even finishing the capsule as it made my nouth so dry but I always felt really really guilty if I didn?t for the reasons above ? that I wasn?t protecting my fragile, but must-be-preserved-for-my-parents?-sake life properly, wasn?t doing my ?job?. Guilty and frightened of what my mother would say/do if she found out, because it was clear she felt it was a direct affront to her if I only finished half the capsule. This was so clear to outsiders that when we had some family friends staying with us once ? they lived a long way away and we only saw them infrequently ? those friends? children immediately picked up on it and blackmailed me when they found a capsule that I?d only half finished, threatening to tell my mum if I didn?t do what they wanted (horrible, degrading stuff, naturally). I can still remember how absolutely terrified I was of her finding out, and how it never occurred to me that I had any option but to do as they said. And my mother was the one person in my family that I did get any ?love? or ?softness? from at all!!! Which maybe gives an idea of how bad things were with my father and brother.

Anyway, it was my therapist who picked up on some of this, and saw it from a different angle ? when I told her about how I hated cleaning this inhaler, she was shocked ? shocked that at six years old I was expected to take responsibility for this myself. Shocked that given it was a life threatening condition and this was a family where one daughter had already died, they weren?t doing everything they could to make it easier and above all safe for me. Why was it my responsibility to clean it? To work out the logisitics of carrying it around with me everywhere? To remember to take it four times a day? When I was six? I found it ? and still find it ? a bit hard to understand her shock, because to me it seemed so NORMAL. It was all up to me. It was my ?fault? I had asthma, on some level, and I was a big enough inconvenience to them anyway, so it was certainly up to me to take away as much of the stress as possible from them. Why should they worry about it/me? I don?t know if it ever bothered my father one tiny little bit. He never ever sat with me when I had a bad attack. My mother did; she would sit with me, but there was no safety or reassurance coming from her; no loving comforting words, just this horrible grim silence that stretched through the endless night. I could only take the inhaler every three hours at most, and when my asthma was at its worst the inhaler only worked for half an hour. So, two and a half hours of struggling desperately for breath, chest racked with pain, wheezing away, sitting upright against the pillows in bed, my mother sitting by me in the dark without a word for the most part. My father sleeping soundly in the next room. Half and hour of relief and then start all over again. I look back now and I think ? why did she never take me to hospital? Call an ambulance? Surely there might have been more they could do there, even in the days before nebulisers, or at least she could have tried, to find out? Surely she could have taken it more seriously?

And this is what my therapist was saying, that although on the one hand I had to live, because without me, the great festering sore that I patched up would burst open; on the other hand, they were such crap parents that they really didn?t have the capacity to cope with two children, and on an UNCONSCIOUS level, they wanted me to die too. I can?t stress the unconcsious enough. Of course my parents are not the kind of people who would actually physically threaten a child?s life. But they are totally blind to ? and as a result, totally prisoners of ? their unconscious, and there is some evil, dark, really truly festering stuff in their unconscious. There is a real lot of genuine child hating, and an inability to cope with the emotional demands of parenthood ? because emotionally they are just very damaged (but apparently functional) children thermselves. So, one boy they could just about cope with ? but two children at once, they found nigh on impossible, I think; it?s telling that I was the only one of the three that was deliberately conceived and then only as an act of desperation in the face of death. They were never the kind of parents who said, right, we?re ready now, let?s start a family; let?s have another baby, because we?re ready. It was two ?accidents? and then me. And they gave me the message loud and clear all the time that I was more than what they wanted. Too demanding, too needy, too loud, too ?selfish? (yeah, right, Mum, cause you are just about THE most unselfish person who ever lived, aren?t you) ? anyway, I digress. The awful truth is that although they desperately wanted ?a baby? as balm for their wound, they DIDN?T actually want the realities of a child, of having to bring that child up, find more space, more love, more tolerance and time and energy for it ? and the truth is they didn?t actually want ME at all. I was never a real person to them, more a kind of cipher. And that?s why it?s actually so easy for them to do without me now that we?re estranged, even though they pretend it?s awful and they want to get me back into their life (yeah, right ? back as their big trauma bandage, emotional arse wipe). I am completely dispensable. I was never really wanted in the first place.

Just a bit longer? if anyone?s still reading?. The asthma thing also really hit me when, in my mid-20?s, I decided to try and ditch the inhaler (the puffer one by this time). I wanted to prove to myself that I wouldn?t die if I didn?t take it religiously every day, as I had always believed. And I didn?t. I had a few nasty attacks but I managed to get through them and psychologically it was huge to make that leap, although that probably heralded a lot of the other stuff starting to make its way to the surface, so a whole new can of worms ? once the tangible ?burden? was gone, the emotional burden that it had symbolised started to come to the fore. Anyway, I remember going through one attack and it was fairly bad, though not extreme ? and for the first time in my life I became conscious of how terrifying it was to have asthma, to literally not be able to breathe. I?d had it all those years, gone through all that trauna as a child, and I?d never had the safety to be able to feel appropriately frightened, I?d just had to suppress it all, pretend it was NORMAL, pretend this happened to everyone, just part of life, no big deal. Re-living it as an adult I realsied just what a big deal it was. You can?t breathe: you?re scared you?re going to die. Very simple. You have a dead ?sister? in the equation ? even more intense fear.

Of course my parenst never ever stopped to think about what it must have been like for me. Ever. As long as I didn?t actually die, everything was OK.

Finally ? this is a bit grim, I?m afraid ? I have to say more about death in our family. When I was nine, my cousin died, in a freak accident on the water (not drowing though). She was 15, my mother?s sister?s daughter. I didn?t know her at all really, all my extended family lived in different countries, but she was a biological cousin, it was a big deal and it wasn?t at the same time. Very confusing. My mother took the call and came through sobbing, just me and her at home. I comforted her. I said all the things a caring adult might have said to her. She did say once years later that I had been ? a great help? that day. Of course she didn?t say so at the time. She just sucked it all up as usual, all my love and caring and concern for her, and gave no thought whatsover to how it might affect me, another shocking, premature death of a girl child in our family. Gave me nothing. My best friend (the one who bulllied me) came round later and we went out to play and I felt guilty for wanting to go out to play, as if I should be wearing sackcloth and ashes for this girl I?d never really known ? like my ?sister?. We had beans on toast for tea. That night I cried myself to sleep, racked by guilt for having been so heartless as to want to go out and play after my cousin had died, fearing I was going to burn in whatever the atheist version of hell is. Isn?t it funny that although my parents are strident atheists, I was as terrified of eternal punishment as any Catholic? Fearing that it meant I was a fundamentally bad, evil person who would never, ever deserve to be loved.

Then when I was 19 my uncle (father?s only sibling) killed hinself. Also lived in another country. Also barely knew him, though my father always loved to tell me how like him I was. Father and he hadn?t seen each other or been speaking properly for 10 years before he died, after a big family row. Father said he regretted that hugely afterwards; doesn?t seem to have learnt any lessons from it though does he? In the light of current estrangement and the fact he can?t have that many years left on the clock. Father also managed to work said suicidally dead uncle into his speech on my wedding day. Nice. Alnost as nice as the bit when he said about me and DH ?of course, they?re leaving it rather late to have children?. In his speech ON MY WEDDING DAY. When we?d already been ttc for a year and the fear of ultimate childlessness was our absolute worst nightmare. THANKS AGAIN, Dad.

Sorry, this bit is probably the grimmest of all. The day before a birthday in my late 20?s, my brother?s first child also died. A baby boy, six months old. I was the first to be with them after it happened. I was actually going round there for a pre-birthday dinner ? brother is a good cook and a foodie, and I didn?t have a phone of any kind then as my life was already hugely dysfunctional. My brother greeted me on the doorstep with the news. I was there as my SIL sobbed and my weeping brother held her and said ?it?s allright, we?ll have another baby?, and it was like the whole universe concertina?d. NO I wanted to scream, DON?T DUMP ALL THIS ON A POOR INNOCENT LITTLE BABY! GET OVER IT FIRST! WAIT! ? and of course I couldn?t, they were the ones who?d just had their lives devastated, I had to be sensitive to THEIR feelings, had to put them first, just like I always put everyone else first. And I did/said whatever I could to console them, although there isn?t a lot, is there? But anyway ? that precipitated a kind of breakdown for me, suddenly things started coming up that I?d never thought about ? never thought that my ?sister?s? death was something that had affected me, had always just seen it as something my parents had suffered ? but my reaction to my brother?s reaction was the massive, massive alarm bell going off and telling me this was my issue too. And things just escalated from there. Not long after that I first went for counselling; unfortunately, although she was lovely and caring, I think, she was just not experienced or wise enough to be able to deal with the level of pain and darkness that I was bringing to the table and after a year I was in a worse state in many ways than when I?d started ? she?d opened up so much but given me no ways to cope with what she?d opened up, I was just swinming in a morass of gunk.

Interestingly, my brother said to me, years later ? when he and SIL had had Dniece and Dnephew and were a nice, normal family again, while I was single, childless, staggering through my 30?s in a still dysfunctional haze despite all my best efforts to the contrary and copious amounts of therapy, selp help, workshops, healing etc etc ? he said, he actually said, ?I think in many ways you?ve felt his death more than we have and it?s been worse for you, ?cause we?ve got DD and DS to get us over it? ? and I had nothing. Awful because it was true. But how awful that he could let it be true. But this is how it was. I was the one in the family who was designated as the trauma/grief carrier. I had to be dysfunctional so they could all be normal. I was the family ?tombstone?. There was all this grief, all this shocking, horrible death ? but they all just carried on going about their daily business, a bunch of juggernauts that nothing can stop. Someone had to feel it all. Someone had to hold it all, contain it all. It had to go somewhere. It went to me. I felt my nephew?s death more intensely and for far longer than his parents did, after the initial horror had worn off. SIL was pregnant again within a few months, just like my mother was. I was on my own. Carrying the grief. I was absolutely devastated by his death, completely turned inside out. And the awful thing is, if it?s not your grief you?re carrying, you can?t actually process it. Can?t grieve and let it go. Because it isn?t yours! It didn?t happen to you! I was someone who was imbued with the feelings of having lost a child, without ever having had a child of my own. From day one of my life it was like that. And I couldn?t get over it, really couldn?t, until I found my now therapist and started to work on it all the way I do now. Like I?ve said before, finding her was a process that took 11 or 12 years in itself. And I?ve been seeing her and working this way for over 8 years now.

And I think I?ve earned the right to feel proud of what I?ve done, because I?m where I am now because I kept going, no matter how long it took or how shitty it was ? and it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO shitty ? and I have worked my arse off to change my life, to stop being the tombstone, to become a normal person ? or rather the uncover the normal person I always was inside, underneath the tombstone. And I?m saying this for myself, because I still need to tell myself this ? that I have done a good job, that I am doing a good job, because it is not easy being a mother coming from that background, even though I think I am naturally very maternal (ie in myself, or as I would have been without all their crap) and I know how very deeply I love my son; and a lot of the time at the moment it is quite a struggle because of the issues I am still dealing with ? but for me, just to BECOME a wife, to BECOME a mother was an enormous achievement in itself, because the ?family script? was that I stayed having a non-life and keeping in all the dark stuff the others didn?t want to deal with/look at/feel, and that meant staying a childless spinster for ever, whatever they said about wanting me to be happy. They might have wanted me to be happy (although probably not that much!), but they needed me to be unhappy. And when I turned 40, I was still a childless spinster? and now I am a much loved wife and mother. And isn?t it funny? The more I hate them, the more I can have love in my life. I am SO glad I got away. Smithfield, what you said a while back about feeling that I?m safe now, away from her (them) ? I keep remembering that. It?s true.

Thanks for bearing with me, if anyone's had the stamina to get through this - not so much an essay as a novel! Have had to get it out. Feel much better for it, like I've been sitting on it for a good while. Am thinking of you all and hope I might find it easier to respond more to others now I've got this off my chest. Sending you all love and encouragement and support anyway; you all know, I hope, that I'm always on YOUR side against family members etc who try to make out you're the one in the wrong/with the problem!

PinkyMinxy · 17/07/2009 09:39

Bop I read this last night,but should've been asleep and was too tired to respond.

I just wanted to say what a moving and courageous post that was. And how fantastically well you have done to get to this point.

BopTheAlien · 17/07/2009 13:34

thank you Pinky

smithfield · 17/07/2009 15:02

Bop I agree a very courageous post indeed.
I can relate to a lot of what you wrote as well. Stuff that lurks beneath surface level is so difficult to deal with. In many ways the unspoken messages our mothers sent us as children were far more powerful than those that were spoken.

ActingNormal · 17/07/2009 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

oneplusone · 18/07/2009 22:01

Bop, I am so glad you wrote all that stuff. It is such a good thing to be totally honest about what you went through and how you felt, to totally unburden yourself. So much of what you said rings true with me.

Being alone to cope with your illness, yes, me too. I was always made to feel my eczema was my problem, it was never talked about. I was just left to try and sort it out on my own. My parents preferred to focus on my sisters who didn't have eczema.

I think my parents also wanted a baby, me, to try and paper over the huge cracks in their marriage, but they also didn't want or realise and certainly were unable to cope with the realities of caring for a child.

And you are right to feel so proud of what you have achieved despite your parents trying to drag you down every step of the way. You kept on going and that shows the strength and courage you have inside you.

And like you have said, I am also so glad i got away from my old family, my only regret has only ever been that i didn't get away sooner.

Thank you to those who responded to my post about DH. I feel awful. I have realised now that I have been 'scapegoating' him. I painted him as the bad guy in my mind, convinced myself he didn't love me, didn't care about me, wasn't bothered if I lived or died. And then something clicked in my mind and I realised that these were actually all the things I had been subconsciously thinking about middle sister. She hasn't contacted me for quite a while. I am sure it is as a result of my last text to her where i finally stood up for myself and made it clear i would no longer be used and pushed around by her.

She has been the one who has been misstreating me and I should be the one who is rejecting her. But I have felt so strongly that she is rejecting me, by her lack of contact. I know that I feel middle sister doesn't care about me, certainly doesn't love me. I really do not know why i ever thought differently. All her behaviour over the years has shown so clearly what she thinks of me and how she feels about me. I think she has always put on an act of liking me but it has never taken much for her mask to slip and for her true feelings to show through. But i have ignored all the signs for so so long. It feels all over again like when i first cut off my parents. I really didn't want to believe they would just let me go, i thought they would come through for me and prove they did really love me after all. But as the years went by and they did nothing, i realised that my inner feeling had been right all along, and that they actually did not care about me at all.

And it feels like I'm going through the same thing with middle sister. I am having to face up to the fact that she never did care about me and her silence now is proof of that. I went through an awful few days recently, just feeling completely numb and zombie like. I couldn't sleep at night and yet didn't reall feel tired during the day. It was like i was on drugs or something, on some sort of caffiene fix that was keeping me awake, but in a kind of trance. And it was only when the truth broke through into my consciousness that I felt connected with my life again. I am sure this all sounds wierd to anyone that is reading, it is very hard to describe how i have been feeling the last few days.

I have also come to the rather obvious realisation that my sisters are two completely individual and seperate people. I can feel differently about each of them. I always seem to lumping them both into one and trying to merge my feelings about them into one mould. But of course they are both very different and have both treated me very differently over the years. The youngest one has been far less nasty and cruel, and i feel much more inclined to try and maintain a relationship with her than with middle sister.

I have no idea what will happen when middle sister has her baby if neither of us has got in touch by then. I simply do not want to speak to her or see her. I feel i would be betraying myself if i had contact with her and pretended everything was find and acted nice, when inside i feel deeply hurt by her behaviour.

Anyway, I am glad i have realised DH is not the villain of the piece, he never was, i should have known that, but i just seem to become consumed with feelings and pin them on DH without realising what is going on in my subconscious. I know that for days and days i was thinking about the fact that middle sister had not contacted me and was feeling hurt and rejected by her, especially when i had done nothing wrong, she was the one who had been cruel and nasty to me, and i didn't seem able to face my feelings head on and attribute them to middle sister. I suppose i didn't want to actually believe that she, like my parents, also doesn't really and truly care about me, it's all been an act on her part, pretending to play the role of a caring sister, when in reality i think she actually hates me, is in some ways jealous of me and has no respect for me.

Perhaps she will change her view about me once she has her baby and realises how tough it is to bring up children. But by then it might be too late, i think i have lost any feeling i had for her. It's not DH I feel nothing for anymore, it's middle sister. And perhaps even the feelings of rejection and not caring being triggered by middle sister actually originate in childhood, caused by my parents making me feel rejected and like they didn't care about me. So i am scapegoating middle sister as well. But she has been cruel and nasty to me in her own right so i don't think i am scapegoating her.

Sorry, am thinking out loud here, should've worked all this out before posting.

OP posts:
skihorse · 19/07/2009 19:38

I'm sorry, this is a blatent me, me, me post. Obviously I've talked to my therapist about this in the past and I've told my OH this evening how much it's currently hurting me - but today I've been triggered again.

I am so angry that my chance of a "normal" education was taken from me. I was the genius child, I scored the highest marks ever achieved at my school for the 11+... and that was as far as my talent went. I sat more GCSEs than I took at school as I self-studied at night... got kicked out of school & was living in a squat during my GCSEs. Fucked up my A-levels at sixth form college. Went to uni at 21 to get out of the Women's Aid shelter I was living in... hated my course, swapped, fucked up, failed, dropped out.

I am bitter and pissed off that I lost my opportunity for an amazing education. I know that people will say that "they coped anyway". But I didn't cope. My energy went in to staying alive. I should've been at Oxbridge. It's all too late now.

oneplusone · 19/07/2009 20:42

skihorse, i know exactly how you feel. Me too. When i was very young, in primary school, my parents were advised to transfer me to a private school as i was so bright, to make the most of my potential. My parents of course did not transfer me to private school. Not because finances wouldn't allow, a reason i would have accepted, but because in their words, it would have been too much hassle for them and they couldn't be bothered to change schools for me.

I did ok at achool/college/uni but I am sure i 'underperformed' because whilst i was trying to study at school, at home i was being horribly horribly abused by my dad and was abandoned and ignored and neglected by my mother. Had they instead been behind me, supported me, encouraged me, praised me, i KNOW i would have done amazingly well. Like you, i think i could have gone to oxbridge. Instead i went to a very mediocre university and my dad wanted me out of the house so badly he wouldn't even contemplate letting me stay at home for one more year as i had been offered a deferred place at a much better uni for the following year.

And now it is just too late. I have too many constraints and committments to ever put myself first and devote myself to studying again in the way i could have done at 18. I am DETERMINED that my DC's potential is not wasted like mine was, but that does nothing really to ease my own personal loss.

OP posts:
skihorse · 19/07/2009 20:52

oneplusone Yep, parents standing in the way - although we did move area. We moved from Berkshire - where I was pretty much guaranteed a scholarship to "The Abbey". I was told they wouldn't let me go because I'd always be the "poor girl". We then moved to south-east london where grammar schools were standard - so in some ways I was saved.

I got accepted by Cambridge 2 years ago but it was already "too late". St Hilda's is very pro mature women...

I'm gutted. From 13 years old I was doing my own food shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. If I left my schoolbag downstairs after 7pm bad luck... it was staying down there and I wasn't.

This is going to sound daft, but have you ever seen the film "The Saint" with Val Kilmer and Elizabeth Shue? Well, I should've been Elizabeth Shue. Instead, I've just been some nutcase who's bounced from country to country, from man to man until "now".

You're right though, the opportunities must be available for my children. I'm embarassed though that I don't have a degree - even though I have a very good job. Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but I feel like a 2nd class citizen due to my lack of degree.

FUCKERS! I should've been able to study rather than being busy with hateful thoughts between myself and fighting not to commit hari-kari.

oneplusone · 19/07/2009 21:00

Apologies also as this too will be a 'me, me, me' post.

I have realised that a big cause of tension in me and my current life is that i never feel i can be fully myself with DH. As soon as he walks in through the door i feel a certain amount of tension inside. I feel i have to 'act' in a certain way for his sake. He does not like me moaning, he wants me to always pretend i am happy and jolly and that i have had a wonderful day. But usually my days are far from wonderful, instead the usual groundhog monotomy that goes with caring for young children. At the moment i feel incredibly frustrated, bored, unfulfilled and feel i desperately need something more in my life than simply caring for the DC's 24 hours a day every day.

But i know i cannot say this to DH. In the past if i have tried to talk to him, he has always said i was being ungrateful and i should appreciate what i've got etc etc. Maybe he's right, but i can't change the way i feel. And i will never change how i feel unless i face up to it and take steps to change my life. But that is impossible with DH as he always tries to dismiss my feelings and makes me feel bad for feeling the way i do.

I have totally had enough of it. DH is currently away for a few days and i have been home alone with the DC's. It has given me space to think about my behaviour and i realise that weekends are always tense as i feel i am required to 'act' for DH. I always act for the DC's during the week as it's not their fault that i feel the way i do and i certainly don't want them to have any inkling of how bored and frustrated i am. So i am happy to 'act' for their sake during the week but at weekends i need to be able to be me. But i realise even at weekends i have to act for DH's sake as he doesn't like it when i am miserable and moany and glum. But that is how i feel. If he loves me like he keeps saying he does, why does he not want to know how i really feel? Why should i put on an act for him? Acting even in front of DH is partly what is making me feel so alone i think, because i cannot share my true feelings with him, he is forcing me to be alone with how i feel as he doesn't want to know. He keeps saying he just wants us to be 'nice' to each other, but i don't see how telling him that i am bored, unfulfilled and unhappy is being horrible or nasty to him in any way. I am just telling him how i feel.

I am so fed up of him. It has been hard being alone with the DC's, but on the other hand it has been really good as i have not had to act as DH has not been around. I could get used to this, i really could. He is back tomorrow and i have told him we need to have a serious talk as i am really unhappy. He will probably be annoyed that i have spoilt his break by telling him such things whilst he is away, but i have been 'protecting' him and everyone around me from my true feelings for too long and it has always been at my personal expense and i am no longer willing to do it. I am going to put my feelings first and be honest with people, if they don't like what i have to say, then i don't think they are worth having in my life. It may end up being just me and the DC's but that is absolutely fine.

OP posts:
skihorse · 19/07/2009 21:05

I'm behind you 100%. Why shouldn't you be able to say that you're bored (gasp!) and unfulfilled, even if he can't turn your world around - you at least want to hear "darling, I hear you". I don't think he's giving you the support you need. You shouldn't have to wear a mask in your marriage.

Btw, I don't think it's unusual (from what I've heard) to feel unfulfilled being a SAHM - but it seems to be one of the great taboos.

oneplusone · 19/07/2009 21:20

skihorse thanks. I did actually talk to him just before he went away and strangely got a very different response from him than the usual "you should be grateful, you've got a great life etc". He actually seemed to listen to me and took me seriously. Perhaps it was because earlier that evening i had this feeling i was going to explode and i just walked out of the house. This was at about 5.30pm and DH thought i was just going to be out for a while, go and have a cup of tea somewhere and come home. Well, i went into town, had a meal by myself, went to see a film and got a tazi home in the pouring rain and didn't get home til nearly midnight. I also switched my phone off. The DC's were fine as i knew DH would feed them and put them to bed.

I have never done anything like that before. I am always just here, like a piece of furniture. Perhaps my temporary escape got DH worried that i really was serious. I told him when i got back that the only reason i did come back was because i had absolutely nothing with me to stay out overnight in a hotel or something. Had i had the forethought to take a few things with me, i think i would have stayed away for few days. I would have texted DH to let him know i was ok, but other than that i would have kept my phone off and just been on my own.

I am going to force him to have a serious talk when he gets back from his trip. It's our anniversary on tuesday and i have booked a babysitter. We were going to go out for a meal and we will still go out for a meal. But it won't be the pleasant night out DH was probably planning, I am no longer going to act and make it a nice evening for him, whilst inside i am miserable and alone, i am going to use the evening as a chance to have a proper talk without the DC's to worry about. I think our anniversary is actually an appropriate time to have a serious talk, as there will be no more anniversaries unless we do talk and DH actually listens to the truth about me and how i feel.

OP posts:
skihorse · 19/07/2009 21:23

Good luck! I don't want you to think you weren't heard tonight -but I'm in a different timezone and I'm hitting the sack. x

oneplusone · 19/07/2009 21:27

skihorse, i like your phrase, i shouldn't have to wear a 'mask in my marriage'. And yet that is exactly what i have been doing, perhaps from the moment i got together with DH. And i think it has been making me depressed. I think that i have been slightly depressed ever since DH and I got engaged/moved in together (can't remember exactly when), but looking back in hindsight, i think i have always almost been too scared to truly be myself with DH, totally and completely. Or perhaps i didn't even know who i really was anyway.

But i am so much more confident about who i am now and much more able to actually be myself without a fear of being disliked/unwanted. DH is probably the last remaining person with whom i have been 'acting' and i need to stop it now. Him being away has been so good in giving me the space to see all this much more clearly.

OP posts:
smithfield · 20/07/2009 09:35

Hi- Sorry have not had time to read back over posts. i will try to later today as I have some 'admin' time for work. Its usually the only time I get to sneak a peak on here at the moment.

opo- a while back you asked about dh and I. I'd like to answer but it is finding the words to say how things are for us.
Dh seems to totally bury his head in the sand wrt any of our marital problems.
I think our situation is different though as I still hold myself more responsible for the state of our relationship.
I feel like I have fallen out of love with dh that I still love him but am not in love.
It is a major problem because we have not had sex now in two years. I am shocked to even write this. This is the stuff I bury (so dh and I aren't that disimilar after all). It has got to a point where neither of us mention it. The longer it goes on the less I feel.
He is becoming more and more like a brother or a friend.
Its shocking and I dont know how we got to this place. This is not the first time this has happened within my relationships either. With a previous partner I shut down sexually with him too. It became an issue with him and he would threaten me with it, i.e if we dont have sex soon I will leave you.
The thing is I do think that in that situation (i.e with ex partner ther was a valid reason, or so I thought at thed time. I got pg at the beginning of our relationship. It was not planned and he pressured me to have an abortion. (I apologise to any one who is shocked or offended by this). I spent many years after mourning that child who deep down I desperately wanted but I never had the courage to assert myself. I was twenty-four at the time. I had been conditioned to bend to other peoples wills in order to get approval or love. And I was so desperate to be loved by this man. I think a bit like others had said I formed an attachment to him. For so many years before him I felt utterly despewrately alone. Feels like I am trying to justify myself but really I am trying to make sense of what was a very painful chapter in my life.
Sorry I have gone off on a tangent and am sure this is not of relevance to you opo I just didnt want to ignore your question.
Im glad you have asked it really, because this is the first time I have been totally honest about the state of my marriage. Even to myself.
Dh is a good man. I think I am lucky in many ways to have someone so prepared to listen to my needs but I feel am like a bottomless pit. Whatever he does it's never enough.

queenofdenial2009 · 20/07/2009 11:50

I've just come across this thread recently and I wanted to thank you all for posting, because you're putting words to a lot of the stuff that swirls around my unconscious.

Like many of you, I had crap parents and a lack of parenting and I think I am only now genuinely dealing with it as I approach 40. I thought I had dealt with it in my twenties, but in retrospect I think in some ways we're still children then or it's too close to be able to view it as an adult.

However I'm still repeating the patterns I learnt as a child now. But as an adult, I can leave my emotionally abusive partner (planning for next month) and make things better for DD.

skihorse for what it's worth, I actually did go to the Abbey and it was cold and heartless. You either fitted their snobby Oxbridge stereotype or you were ignored. They all knew my Mum was an abusive alcoholic, but not one of them spoke to me or my sister, even though they knew we were effectively on our own.

skihorse · 20/07/2009 12:04

queenofdenial Gosh, what a small world. "Cold and heartless" eh? Check! The school I ended up at was not much better, social services were called in to investigate my family - so imo the school must've known... but nobody helped, nobody gave a damn - all they cared about was their bloody reputation.

Good luck with leaving your partner next month - it won't be easy of course and there will be moments when you doubt yourself and ask whether you could change - but it sounds very clear you know there's nothing wrong with your behaviour.

oneplusone I really wish you strength with bringing this issue in to the foreground. I think it's one thing to wear a mask to talk to the bank manager (they make me feel like a naughty 5 year old) - but it's another to have to hide from the one person who should always fight your corner.

ActingNormal · 20/07/2009 12:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

smithfield · 20/07/2009 12:48

skihorse- It is never too late. Not if that is what you want to do.

queenofdenial- Just wanted to say hi. keep posting.
--
I feel like I said things I shouldnt in my last post. I feel people will be shocked and think I am a bad person.
Dont know if I am being paranoid but I am having one of those ' I have said too much moments'

ActingNormal · 20/07/2009 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ActingNormal · 20/07/2009 13:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

roseability · 20/07/2009 14:11

Hi everyone!

Thinking of you all

Now that I am a mother of two, I can see more clearly OPO how wrong your parents were in their parenting of you and your sisters

My DS is finding it hard at times to adapt. He had me to himself for 3 years of course. He loves his little sister but takes it out on me (I would rather this than the other way around though). It is crucial that a mother makes all her children feel loved equally and unconditionally. Sometimes I feel cross at his jealousy and rejected by his anger at me, but I have to be the adult and see it from his point of view. I am trying hard to make time for him and show that I still love him just as much.

OPO, I think your parents allowed their own issues to prevent them treating their offspring equally. I know I am stating the obvious but I think it is more common than people think, another taboo area in society. Not all mothers are capable of this crucial parenting role

I feel guilty because I am enjoying my DD so much more at this stage. I feel it is because I have worked out family issues in my head which had only just surfaced when DS was born. However for that, I will always be grateful to my DS. His arrival forced me to sort out my feelings and emotions. He is special because of that

Of course my GM is being awful. Sulking because I don't phone her often enough and don't need her help. Attention seeking, same old, same old.

roseability · 20/07/2009 14:16

Oh yes the 'not good enough' feeling

It ruled my life for years. Now I think being a good and loving mother is more important than anything else I could achieve. It is definately programmed from childhood

My DS was complaining this morning that he is not very good at Lego. I was heart broken that he even understood the concept. I think he is brilliant at everything and tell him so! He has probably heard me say I am not good at something and learnt the concept from me

smithfield · 20/07/2009 14:17

AN Hi thanks for your post. And for the reassurance .
I feel sad that I was too weak to stand up for myself back then. That I was able to stuff my feelings down in order to please someone else.
I know exactly what you mean. I think it definately has been a theme that has followed me for years.
It has lead me to many extremes. Like losing weight. I could never lose enough weight or be slim enough.
When I was younger I would stare in the mirror for hours examining my features and deciding which would need to be fixed.
Jobs. Never paid enough, not glammerous enough, important enough.
Underneath Im constantly trying to feed the child who feels that by herself she is simply 'not enough'.
I do think that wrt dh I miss that high you get in the beginning. Its the bit where it is so intense for a while you forget you dont feel whole. It's just a distraction though.
Partially though I think a big issue for me is trust. It was so badly broken by my parents part of me cant believe someone can genuinely care for me. Im constantly questioning others intentions. What's wrong with them? What are they up too?
Part of my inner child wants to prove to the world she really is. Wants to be loved, approved off. Thinks that if she gets that love approval the gap will disappear.
Except it doesnt does it! It's just onto the next thing, because like you say whatever you get 'externally' the whole is still there.
There is another part of my inner child though who is afraid that she really may be exposed as not good enough. Hence the sensitivity to any form of criticism or of disaproval.
You are right I know the secret is in being happy in the here and now. I feel like in some way this is almost an addiction for me in itself? Just like your need to punish yourself at the gym AN (do you ever feel now like you still want to but stop yourself?) It's as if I need to push the dial inside me. Normal stuff makes me feel bored/restless and sometimes I wonder if the level of anxiety and stress that I grew up with became normalised for me. Part of me now craves the adrenalin rush. Normality isnt desirable.
You are right though when you say that when you dont do things society considers extreme then it doesnt seem as much of an issue.
What yourself and I have done AN to try and feel complete or gain some relief, fits into societal norms because we are a consumer society and so many of us are trying to prove themselves externally.
JUst because we are not being extreme, doesnt mean we 'feel' it any less or it is any less painful.
I am getting better because I used to be obsessed with what other people had/have materially, especially my siblings.
The thing I have trouble with now is differentiating between an ernest need or desire I might have and believing it is ok to follow that need or wether I am still trying to 'fill' the gap in some way.
I find it hard to trust my own instincts. So for example I think I would like to either stop work or to 'wind' down work, but then I think I should be satisfied with what Ive got. Or am I hiding behind that excuse because more of my self esteem rests on the job than I really care to admit?
AN I dont know If I am making sense, but how do you tell the difference? ARe you able to identify when you are trying to do something genuinely for yourself and enhance your life or wether your desire to fill the gap is taking hold of you?

smithfield · 20/07/2009 14:23

Rose You wrote;

I feel guilty because I am enjoying my DD so much more at this stage. I feel it is because I have worked out family issues in my head which had only just surfaced when DS was born. However for that, I will always be grateful to my DS. His arrival forced me to sort out my feelings and emotions. He is special because of that

This exactly what happened with me too. I think under the circumstances it is normal.
I think the importance of being aware of our responses to dc especially when we have more than one is crucial isnt it.

Re you GM sulking- Let her sulk. This time is about you. ds and dd. If she cant see that I think it just makes your keeping her at arms length even more justified doesnt it.