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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

I don't know what to say to my mum about this.

63 replies

OrmIrian · 11/05/2009 17:19

I have known for a few years that mum had twin boys that died at birth due to serious medical incompetence (makes my blood boil even now!) about 2yrs before I was born. And that she had a late miscarriage a few years before that.

She was treated appallingly by the various consultants that treated her - for example the twins were lost due to pre-eclampsia but when she started retaining water the consultant told her she was she was just too fat and made the ward sister put her on a restricted diet Sister tried to argue with him but the Doctor's rule was law. But also by her family who told her she had to get up and about and not mope as she had a husband and son who needed her to buck up and look after them. No sympathy at all. In fact she was made to feel like a failure.

I have just found out that she had another late mc when I was 18m old almost certainly due to the fact that she caught whooping cough from me. I don't know what to say to her. No matter how I rationalise it I can't help feeling that I was responsible for her losing this baby too

She had a terrible childhood and it just seems to me that her adult life was torn apart by these horrible things. I find it hard to talk to her as it always ends up in mum blaming my dad for everything and I don't know how to deal with that. He isn't perfect (and as a husband I think he probably left something to be desired) but he was a fantastic father. And they are in their late 70s now and I don't want to bring things up that have been buried. But there is so much sadness in her and it breaks me heart that so much in her life has been hard and cruel. And as a baby I contributed to that.

WWYD?

OP posts:
Original poster
OrmIrian · 11/05/2009 20:48

Thanks everyone.

springlamb and hrh - it is definitely a generational thing. When you came through the war I guess it gave you much more of a stoical attitude. Shit happens! Deal with it. I can clearly remember when my SIL lost a baby at 16 weeks mum was bemused at all the fuss and that was the first time she talked to me about her lost babies. No-one brought her flowers and made a fuss of her. She was jealous I think and guilty for feeling that.

pheebe - I'm sorry that my reaction was so strong. I value your opinions but not neccesarily views on my personality I don't think of myself as a drama queen but I may be wrong. I'm sorry about your losses. I gemuinely was thinking of my mother and not myself - or at least more of her than me.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 11/05/2009 20:48

great post hrh

pheebe, I have read lots of orm's posts (am a bit of an admirer ) and she has never struck me as a drama queen

your opinion is certainly valid pheebe, the tone was inappropriate however

is there something in your history that makes you feel cold towards this kind of feelings-sharing?

Original poster
OrmIrian · 11/05/2009 20:50

springlamb - your story does sound similar. We just have to love the people we have while we still have them, which is what I want to do. I want her to know that I feel for her.

OP posts:
springlamb · 11/05/2009 20:51

Sorry solo, didn't mean to upset you or myself!
For everything that we go through today with our dcs, our mums went through it all - but they couldn't talk, communicate, read, write (and sometimes cry) about it.
Thank God for mumsnet (most of the time).
In the main, I am glad I know this about my mum's history, I am glad she chose to share it with me. It was not discussed in detail with my sisters, although I am sure they know things that I don't - swings and roundabouts, horses for courses.

Original poster
OrmIrian · 11/05/2009 20:52

Wow thanks anyfucker

OP posts:
spicemonster · 11/05/2009 20:54

It's so hard this as I don't know you and I don't know your mum. My mum had a late miscarriage, 2 MMCs and a medically necessary termination. I'd always known about them but never really appreciated the pain she must have gone through until I had my own MMC. That was the gateway into our having a conversation about it all.

If you want to talk to her about it (and fwiw I don't think you sound needy, just like a woman who has now become a mother and has a real appreciation of what it might have been like for your mum), could you go out with her for the afternoon or away for the weekend or something? I find difficult conversations are easier when walking. And you could say something like 'now I'm a mother, I really have got a sense of how awful it must have been for you to have lost your babies'. If that starts her talking about it, then great (well, not great, but you've given her the space to discuss it). If she says 'mmm yes, wasn't very pleasant. Isn't it time we turned back for tea now?' you'll know she doesn't want to discuss it.

And also, as a woman with parents of a similar age, I totally understand your need to understand your family's life before your parents are no longer around to ask about it.

AnyFucker · 11/05/2009 20:55
Smile
Pheebe · 11/05/2009 20:55

catinthehat thank you

OrmIrian please accept my apologies if I came accross as overly harsh and judgemental it was not my intention to hurt or upset you further. On reflection I think my comments came from a stange need to protect your mum

I have lost 10 babies at varying stages from barely pregnant to much later. I never ever write it down like that normally as its just too painful. To allow myself to think that my boys have lost 10 siblings is just too awful to imagine. I have put it all away in a box, sometimes it escapes and overwhelms me but as time goes by and my boys grow this happens less often. I would be devastated if my boys ever felt even a smidgen of my pain, nothing should touch their happy world and I'm sure your mum will feel this way too.

I think what I was trying to get across to you, in a very inappropriate way, is that nothing you do or say will change or help or relieve your mums pain, it will always be there for her. My feeling would be that if, as you say, she is approaching the end of her life, leave it alone. Truly unless she comes to you and wants to talk about it, leave it alone. Be there for her, tell her you love her, make her proud of you and be the best daughter you can. Trust me the love of your children is the best best best medicine for this kind of pain.

By all means perhaps look at counselling for yourself if you do feel some grief for lost siblings or indeed survivor guilt as other posters have proposed.

springlamb · 11/05/2009 20:56

Orm, I really do hope you get the opportunity to hear your mum's story, even though that's likely to be on some future day when you thought you were just going to have a cuppa and a chat about the shopping or something. These things have a way of just happening and I think sometimes it's for the best that way.

AnyFucker · 11/05/2009 21:03

I am so sorry pheebe, that took a lot of guts to do that

I, for one, understand what you are saying and like I said earlier in the thread, I did agree partly with what you said

< hugs pheebe and runs away >

Original poster
OrmIrian · 11/05/2009 21:05

Thanks pheebe. No apology needed

I sometimes get the chance to take my mum out for lunch - rarely without DC or my dad But I will see if I can soon, and then see what happens. Often talking about the birth of my DC prompts her to talk. I don't want to intrude, I want her to tell me what she wants/needs to.

The 1950/60s seems a 1000 yrs ago now - things were so different and there is no-one apart from my dad and my aunt (seriously ill and in her 80s) left that would remember those times and those babies

OP posts:
Iggi999 · 11/05/2009 21:07

Ah Pheebe you sound so brave yourself and your reaction seems perfectly understandable. I don't think grief is dealt with very well in our society, and I hope you have been able to get support that's suitable for you so you don't bear it all alone. I've never been able to speak to my mum about a (teenage) sister I lost, but have found that speaking to a therapist (20 years later!) has been a much better option for me.

FabulousBakerGirl · 11/05/2009 21:08

AnyFucker - you know where I am...

catinthehat2 · 11/05/2009 21:36

Pheebe -

AnyFucker · 11/05/2009 21:38

fbg, you are very kind

SOLOisMeredithGrey · 11/05/2009 22:20

Pheebe, that's very brave of you to give over something so personal and so incredibly painful. I've lost two possibly a third(unconfirmed)babies and that was sooo painful. I just can't imagine your pain.

Grief is a personal thing and every single one of us deals with it and works through it in a totally individual way. I doubt though, that it's ever easy...

AnyFucker · 11/05/2009 22:27

pheebe, are you ok

Pheebe · 12/05/2009 08:15

Thank you ladies

Anyfucker - I'm fine thanks. I'm quite happy to share the fact that I've had multiple mcs but don't generally give the detail I did here. I felt Orm (and everyone) deserved an explanation for my strong emotions in my initial post. Im well aware, even more so now, that I do need to deal with it all but the thought of even talking about it in RL really scares me. The thought of losing control and not being able to come back again I guess. I have pondered before about bringing it fully to mn but I'm just not ready yet.

AnyFucker · 12/05/2009 08:19

morning pheebe

do what feels comfortable for you, of course

Divineintervention · 12/05/2009 08:20

Omiran, I am surprised that you carry any burden of responsibility for something you 'did' as a baby especially as you are a \Mother., You must be able to see that this is very irrational. Perhaps you could approach your Mother and ask if she wants to talk about it. I would start the conversation with how much you care and, much like your post, how you feel that she had an awful life, I don't thikn you should share your feelings of guilt as this could make your mother feel so much worse.
Good luckx

Original poster
OrmIrian · 12/05/2009 08:32

I know it's irrational. But it makes me feel sad, rather than responsible, I suppose. There is also the knowledge that had my twin brothers lived I would almost certainly not be here. WHich is an odd feeling. An, yes, quite irrational and pointless.

I knew nothing about any of this until I was in my late-20s when I started to talk about having babies myself. And I seem to be still learning.

OP posts:
Divineintervention · 12/05/2009 10:10

No not pointless...delightfully human!
Perhaps you are more a gift to your mother than the children who didn't survive. Everything, in my rose coloured life, happens for a reason.
Are there other things going on for you that is making you dwell on this stuff?

Original poster
OrmIrian · 12/05/2009 10:31

Only my parents increasing age and ill-health. They frighten me sometimes with how frail they are. When they are gone there will be no more talking and sharing.

OP posts:
Divineintervention · 12/05/2009 10:56

Perhaps you should write a journal? And talk to your Mum.

SOLOisMeredithGrey · 12/05/2009 12:12

I was thinking the same re 'everything happens for a reason' and that Orm is probably a better 'child' to her mother than her siblings may have been. I also believe that these things are sent to teach us lessons too...what that lesson is for your mum Orm, is something only she can answer if she is willing to delve that deeply into her life/world/heart. As you have already said; if the twins had been born, you wouldn't likely have been.

For me, I know that if I'd actually had my first baby(MMC), I would never have been able to start my current job which would've meant I would never have been able to support(alone)my son when I did have him or have got my own mortgage, car, bike etc...when I personally look at the sad/bad things that have happened for/to me, I can definitely see why I am better off that this and that happened. It's a good way of dealing with stuff that does happen.