Out of love with DH - is staying for the kids right?

[cynicalsis]

This is my first post on MN so I'd like to apologise in advance for any faux pas I might commit.

DH and I have been together for almost 20 years, married for nearly 17 of them. I haven't loved him for a long time - did I ever, I wonder now, or was I just grateful that someone wanted to marry me. In many ways he is a wonderful DH and father but spends little time with our two DS. He works all the time and is rather semi-detached from family life. I realise with some shock that I don't mind this as it means he's not around and that makes life so much better than when he's here. He works away from home part of the time. He's not violent or abusive in any way. In fact, he can be funny and charming. He can even cook and do the housework but only when asked .

Reading some of the other posts here I feel awful for being unhappy with my lot when in reality I have so much that others don't. My DS are wonderful, funny, smart, generous kids and love their dad to bits. I can't bring myself to destroy their family life just because I am unhappy. But I am very unhappy and tormented with indecision about what to do. (I begin to cry just writing this down.)

I have made up my mind to leave once the DS are not living at home full-time. I reckon that could be 8 to 10 more years. But I'm not sure if I can last that long. It's not that I want to be with anyone else. I just don't want to be with DH. In his heart, I suspect DH knows something of how I feel but I have avoided openly discussing my feelings because I don't want to hurt him either.I find myself wishing he would meet someone else and leave me. Then the break-up would happen but I wouldn't be the one initiating it.I'm such a coward.

I so want kids to have a stable family life. I don't want to disrupt school or have to move them. DH had a few problems in his childhood with family moving all the time and being sent away to school while I had a really stable family life and I know which of the two I'd prefer for my DS.

What I'd like to ask is whether anyone else has stayed in an unhappy marriage so that their children can have a stable family. If so, was it worth it? Do you regret it? We hear all the time about how bad family break up is for children. Is it true? I realise only I can make the decision about what I should do but I'd welcome knowing about other people's experience.

brettgirl2 - I agree with you. It is easy to slip into that 'flat mate mode' way of living.

I just wonder if this situation is past that but I always read Relationship threads in a positive light and mostly feel like I want to say there is always a hope and a chance of repair - even if there is obvious unhappiness now.

I mostly feel that 'leaving him' should be a really last option and posters on MN reach that conclusion far too quickly and easily.

The problem is that he wants sex with her and she doesn't want sex with him. So while there is a chance that they could agree to live as co-parents and seek sex elsewhere - if he is happy to do that it will work, if he considers himself in love with her and prepared to 'do anything to keep her' then it's could blow up appallingly when she actually has a date with another man.

No one should ever marry anyone they don't enjoy fucking unless the other person has no libido either. WHile a couple can go through long spells of libido mismatch (usually when exhausted by a newborn or after a difficult birth or other trauma) if there was a happy spark in the first place then they can usually get some of it back. If they married because one desired the other, but the other wanted financial and social security, or an escape from a toxic situation, or was just sure that they could 'learn to love (ie feel desire for) this good, nice person, then disaster is always ahead, because the undesiring one will endure the sex for a while, not like it, start to hate it and then become utterly revolted by the other partner.

If the spark has gone then that will have a terrible effect on their sex life. Sex is part of the overall package not a separate issue. The OP does not state that she never enjoyed having sex with her husband, only that she currently avoids it (unless I am missing something)

I agree though if the relationship cannot be mended the the OP should leave, I would never advocate staying in an unhappy relationship. However, I think that it is worth at least trying to mend it first.

You need to shag him! Really. You need to have a glass of wine, get a saucy nightie on and roger your DH senseless. I don't care if you don't fancy it initially - steel yourself and just do it, then see how you feel about everything.

You have no intimacy in this marriage. Partly that's because you have kept yourself "invulnerable" (with your own money, etc) - did you do that on purpose, do you think? Did you secretly worry that he might leave you (like his first DW) so you kept yourself separate and above hurt? I'm just guessing.

Please shag him! You will feel differently after a shag. You'll either know you want to leave, or be encouraged to stay. Don't avoid the issue - it's got to be worth a try. It'll only take a couple of minutes!

If the OP's DH were violent or abusive in any way I would say "leave him" but given the OP's somewhat positive description of him, I would definitely suggest Relate or some other form of counselling.

TBH, when reading the OP, my first thought was, "what's the problem??". Sorry, don't mean to be flippant but your DH sounds essentially like a nice man. Is he aware that you are so unhappy? It sounds like he doesn't and therefore I honestly don't think he deserves to be 'left' and thus lose his home and children. Please talk to him and try and save your marriage. It's so easy to get bogged down into feeling unhappy with your lot but I honestly feel from what you have said that your marriage is worth saving.

i think sometimes you have to just face the fact that there probably isn't anything worth saving
that sounds a tad harsh and i'm quite sure that many will disagree with me
yes you can make do with the situ.for the apparent sake of your children but believe me they are aware of what's going on and will notice the lack of love between their parents
what sort of a message does this send out to them re:relationships in general?
the main thing for children is that they have two parents who love them and are fully involved in their upbringing and lives regardless
and no i wont pretend that separation and divorce aren't painless
i took the decision to end my marriage and given the choice yes my children would rather we had remained married
but they are also very aware of the fact that they now have a much happier mother which obviously has a major effect on their overall happiness and well being
time will obviously tell tho

lilac hope all goes well for you

Beautiful: is that advice you would give to a woman whose partner is abusive WRT insisting on sex - just give in and let him have sex then he will stop abusing you? Do you think it's women's duty to make themselves sexually available to men no matter what? Why should she have sex with him when she doesn't want to and is revolted by the idea?

How on earth do you interpret "I avoid sex whenever I can which I know upsets him but I just feel it would be so much worse just to endure it" as a partner who is abusive with regard to sex? Her partner wants to have sex with her but unfortunately he is a bit out of the loop communication-wise and doesn't realise she would rather not. He probably thinks she has a lower libido.

Why must you look to see an abuser in every man? Is this not some kind of projection?

I don't agree with the just shag him approach of Beaut by the way, sex would inevitably have to follow greater intimacy, if that turned out to be possible.

solidgoldbrass - I've reported that post. Your misandry is one thing, but to suggest that I (or anyone on here) would advise a woman to let an abusive husband rape her is beyond the pale.

I am not saying the OP's partner is sexually abusive, I see no evidence from her posts that he is. However Beautiful's advice that a woman who doesn;t want sex should force herself to endure it anyway is a lot to close to that cultural mindset that men are entitled to sex and women who refuse it are being unreasonable and should just shut up and put up with it. The OP says she doesn;t love her husband and doesn;t want sex(though he does) and Beautiful is telling her to forget her own wishes and let her husband have sex on her body. Terrible advice.

solidgoldbrass - everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but please do try and remember only a small minority of men are abusive. Similarly an even more tiny minority commit rape. Both of course are horrible and utterly reprehensible.

The OP has not said a bad word about her husbands behaviour apart from being a little bit semi detached. That is to her credit and of course she does not have to agree to sex if she does not want to. Every reasonable person understands that.

Reading your posts on this and other threads I feel you may have a very personal experience that deeply colours your view which is of course very understandable but not all Relationships have to fit the same pattern.

While I do not entirely agree with Beautififul I can see where she is coming from. I agree with pretty much everything Peachyfox is saying too.

I would like to hear much more from the OP as to her true feelings.

"You have no intimacy in this marriage. Partly that's because you have kept yourself "invulnerable" (with your own money, etc) - did you do that on purpose, do you think? Did you secretly worry that he might leave you (like his first DW) so you kept yourself separate and above hurt? I'm just guessing".

I don't understand this point of view at all!!!!

The OP said she is independent.....so what? When we marry do we have to hand over all our independence to our spouse in order to have a happy and sexy marriage?

What I want to know is what effort the OP's DH has made to refresh this long partnership. Does it all have to come from the OP? Does she have to turn herself into a Stepford Wife in order to have a fulfilling relationship.

We can fall out of love for all sorts of reasons.

And also....just because children have issues when parents divorce does not mean that the divorce was a cause of those issues. The unhappy marriage could have as easily been the cause of the issues with the children of that marriage. The divorce may have saved them from even worse damage.

But I do think they must talk to each other.

abetadad - I dont agree with a lot of what SGB says and think she does take an extreme view!
However you are actually wrong - the evidence shows that in fact 1:3 marriages are abusive in some way - that is certainly more than a small minority

Actually I agree with SGB. Forcing yourself to have sex when it is repugnant to you is not a sacrifice worth making. If the marriage won't survive without it then I don't see how it is meant to survive.

macdoodle - I should like to see that research. It must include an incredibly stretched definition of what abuse is.

MN posters must be fairly representative of the broad spectrum of relationships and I just do not sense that level of unhappiness.

As a child of two divorces.....do not stay for the kids.

They're kids, so whatever you do is gonna be wrong but staying and being unhappy is not a good idea. Dealing with you splitting up may be hard for the kids, but in the end they'll be happier if you are.

Do consider the kids though if you leave - it will be rough on them and for a long time, but then your childhood always stays with you and affects you, regardless of what it has been like.

Teach your children that it's okay to get things wrong, that you did what was right at the time, but it's how you deal with them when you know it's not right rather than worrying that it's not right - IYSWIM

Wow abetadad are you saying that there is a level at which abuse actually becomes abuse
It has taken some of us here a very long time to realise that what we thought were difficult/mean/nasty men is in fact abuse!
I am a professional not prone to hysterical irrational outburts, yet for 10 years my XH has made me feel like I am the worthless useless one who doesnt try hard enough - yes it may make me sensitive to abuse in relationships, I am also capable of realising that not all men are abusive and infact have a lovely new DP and am quite capable of seeing disagreements and arguments for what they are and not abuse!
I think their is a problem with recognising abuse and for women to act on it and careless comments dont help!
I will dig out the evidence and post a link later - if I recall it was based on a population size of about 2000 so while not huge fairly adequate to make some generalisations!

is there no chance of going to relate? of finding a way to rediscover each other again? would you feel happier if there was a spark between you or do you think that is not possible?

do you think of him as your best friend or has that become something in the past too?

i found relate very helpful but only you know what is possible for you all - if there is fondness or shared fun then maybe relate can help you find ways to bring a spark back. If you feel nothing, then perhaps it is kinder to you both to move forward to separation - but relate etc can help you do this kindly and with respect

ABetaDad: DOn;t forget, two women a week are killed by a partner or former partner. Yet many people still think that it's not abuse unless you are being repeatedly beaten up; it's not abuse if he deprives you of any money of your own, is so rude to all your family and friends that they all drift away, or monitors all your communications, or shags everything in sight and won't stop...
I am not saying that the OP's partner is abusive. I was objecting to Beautiful's stupid advice (Beautiful has posted before about 'surrendered wifehood' but doesn;t appear to get that what works for her isn;t going to work for other people purely becaause they, too, have vaginas).
What becomes very clear reading the relationships threads is that far too many men still have this sense of being entitled to domestic and sexual services from women, and that a sadly large number of women agree that men matter the most in relationships and men's needs must be met. It;s these ideas that contribute to the amount of domestic abuse that goes on.

macdoodle what has the OP's husband done that in your mind constitutes abuse? It's not that 'abuse becomes abuse', but rather that some things are abuse and other things are just well, things you don't like. Perhaps we could say OP is 'abusing' her husband by distancing herself from him? Perhaps he is abusing her by not perceiving her needs? Or maybe they are two people who need to speak to each other to clarify their situation and work out what to do.

If you call everything abuse the word becomes meaningless. I've had a chequered relationship history, with a string of men (enough to have hit a one in three if that's true) and sometimes they have been the shit and sometimes, I'm afraid, I've been the shit. At least half the time neither of us has been the shit. I have not been abused.

Also I think it's clear that noone thinks OP should feel obliged to have sex with her husband. I'm sure her husband would be horrified at the very thought as he sounds a rather nice chap.

SGB, I have been living through the situation you describe. It IS abuse, and ABetaDad, maybe you wouldn't treat your wife/partner like that but some would. I finally stopped having sex with my husband last summer after years of not wanting to. When I refused, he would put pressure on me night after night until I gave in. He never forced me, but coerced me and nagged me and made me feel bad about refusing 'because men are different and they need sex'. I would stay up til 1 in the morning in the hope that he would be asleep and I could simply get in bed and do the same, but even then he would be awake or would wake very quickly and put me through the ordeal again. I honestly don't know why I put up with it for so long, except I can only think that I was doing what the OP is in a quandary about, and I put my husband's and children's needs before my own.

Only a few days ago when we discussed the breakdown of our relationship, my husband laughed at me and said 'So I wanted to have sex with my wife, what's unreasonable about that?'. I'll tell you when it's unreasonable - when the wife doesn't want it, when she doesn't find him attractive, when she has said no, when she is angry and hurt and disillusioned because he never touches her at all unless he wants sex and then he dresses it up by asking 'do you fancy a cuddle?' when that's not what he means at all.

My husband is hurt and upset at my decision to end our marriage, even though he accepts his part in it. Recent conversations reveal that a lot of his anger at me is because he DOES feel entitled, as SGB says, to a willing wife in the bedroom as well as a host of other services, because he is the man in the relationship and pays for the roof over our heads and the food on the table.

Incidentally, my parents have been married for 44 years. I had a happy and secure childhood. Despite that, I have two failed marriages, the first to a man who hit me more than once (and that's not even the reason I ended it) and made no financial contribution to our household, and the second as I have described to a man who is basically decent but for whom I have never felt more than affection. Unsurprisingly, 13 years on that has gone and what is left is rancour and despair. It's not just the children of divorced parents who make bad choices in their relationships.

It's right if it's right for you and if you are both HAPPY to live together and simply co-parent etc. But it doesn't sound at all that you are happy to have that life. That matters.

Lilac, you're situation sounds awful, and I hope you get out of it soon. However, it does not sound at all like the situation OP describes. Not at all. Quite different.