I walked in on dh masturbating at the dining room table last night. I don't know why I feel so upset about it. I'm not sure how to react.

[sillyannesad]

He lept to his feet pulling his trousers up. I said something like "oh, excuse me. I thought you must be asleep..." and went back upstairs. He followed me up, and came in to the bedroom to ask me if I wanted to talk about it. I had my head under the duvet and muttered something about not wanting to wake ds up.

This morning was just normal. No one mentioned anything, but the kids were flying about and it's always a bit frantic in the morning.

I know it's normal and all men do it and it's harmless and all those logical things. I know I should feel fine about it. But I don't. I feel wretched. I want to go to bed and curl up and have a cry. I feel silly and sad and horrid.

Dh and I don't have sex. I don't think he fancies me. A few years ago I got fed up with the rejection and I stopped trying. I've tried to make my peace with it. We have a good relationship and he is a good friend, and good husband, a good dad and a nice chap.

For a while we talked about it endlessly, but nothing worked so we just stopped.

I sometimes feel violently, furiously angry that I have to live a celebate life. I'm young and not unattractive (not fat, not ugly, just a normal mum in her 30s).

So how do I react?

If I never bring it up again I am fairly certain that he won't either.

I can see myself acting all fine about it and then making the odd little barbed comment.

Maybe this is the cue we need to get talking and sort out our sex life? I just don't think I can take any more rejection though.

I really want to cry. I feel so angry with him. I'm trying not to because all the poor bloke did was masturbate in the privacy of his own dining room.

Please help.
Please don't laugh at me.
Please don't regale me with tales of your own wonderful sex life.

What do I do? And how do I stop feeling so shit?

You need to raise this with him otherwise the bitterness will only increase.

The silence about this can only damage your relationship - it could be that he wants to talk about it but doesn't know how.

I don't want to upset you but I find it hard to understand why you want sex with him when you clearly state that you don't fancy him at all. I think this is worrying.

I can't really help, but I wanted to add my support, apart from the finding him wanking( I haven't, I actually think it might have fallen of , I'm in the same boat, haven't has sex since ds3 was conceived and he's 2 next month.

I also feel dreadfully sad about it and like you I manage to paper over the cracks most of the time, but now I am very sad all over again.

I hope you manage to sort something out though, good luck.

I was also going to ask if you are sure he isn't gay?

Sillyannesad - you need to see a good family solicitor. Non consumation of a marriage has important legal implications and I believe it can under certain circumstances be regarded as a de facto repudiation of the marriage contract after a certain time limit or at least grounds for annulment.

I am not a lawyer but you do need to check this. In effect the legal status of your marriage may be in doubt if you allow this to continue for too long.

I know this will be extremely upsetting for you to read but I think it is very very important that you check your legal position.

I'm not sure that is totally true AbetaDad. The marriage is legally valid but could be annulled on the request of either party (rather than getting divorced). But then the OP or her husband could divorce the other for this sort of thing anyway.

If what you said were true no death bed marriage would be legally recognised, and they are.

In any case, the OP and her husband don't want to split up.

I don't think it counts as an unconsumated marriage when you have 2 children, legally speaking.

Am reading everyone's replies. Feeling a bit boggled. Thank you all so much for taking the time to help.

You are all right, I think. I need to do something about it. Easier said than done though. I just don't know how to start.

Tonight. What do I say?

I don't think he's gay. I have wondered. He looks at women online though, not men.

imgoingtodoit - special, respected, listened to, appreciated, loved - I think so. Normally I would answer yes without hesitation. We have both let things slip a bit. We have 2 young children and no help or support network. We're busy and shattered all the time.

Thank you to those of you who are admitting to similar problems. It really helps to know it's not just me.

I know you don't want to go to counselling, but would doing this help you to start talking? it's another parenting site though!

You need to talk. The Nike approach (i do like that phrase!) sounds attractive, but just postpones the feeling if it doesn't snowball in the way you want it to (ie it's his turn to initiate next week or whatever), so I think talking rather than wine and candlelight is the way to go for now.

However, be aware that this could set up a whole raft of expectation (you) and anxiety (him)that just makes things worse. Think maybe getting him to agree to councelling might be a good first step, suggest he goes on his own first to give him chance to air his thoughts in private.

I wish you luck. I have so been there!

Tell him you can't go on like this. Tell him you both need help. Tell him you aren't happy and you believe he is unhappy too.

Most importantly (if you do) tell him that you love him and you want things to be better.

Then stop talking. Ask him what he thinks, what he feels, what he wants to happen.

I would be tempted to make an appointment for relate and present it to him - no shouty blame, just say the appointment is made and you are going, with or without him. And go.

abeta dad is wrong. there are no legal ramifications that any court would uphold. So dont stress about that. Many many women I see at the womens centre where I work have celibate marriages. Sadly, It is not at all unusual. But that does not mean that you need to live this way. Only you know the best way to start the conversation with dh - all I would suggest is that you keep it to 'I statements eg 'I feel sad that we dont have sex' not 'I wish you would' or 'you make me feel..' a sense of humour about it (hard sometimes i know) and trying to develop a sense of 'we are in this together, lets sort it out' and not laying blame or raking up past. So not much then!

Forget about full blown sex for a moment. Are you still affectionate with each other? Can you still have a cuddle/random hug/passing kiss etc??

I think that agreeing that you "just need to do it" is putting an awful lot of pressure on both of you. That one act becomes a huge deal with massive emotional connotations.

Can you go back and start from the beginning as it were? Take the final act out of the equation and concentrate on getting to know each other again. So you would start off by maybe giving/receiving a foot rub, then try to greet each other with a hug.

Move onto having a 5 min cuddle on a sat morning, maybe progress that into a back massage for each of you.
In other words, move towards being intimate again but without the pressure of an expectation to have full blown sex.

From experience, this (idrank's post) is exactly what re;ate will try to do with you.

Wow, for you.

You know you need to talk to him about this. Try talking, showing him that you are deeply hurt by this but do try not to be angry. I'd maybe start by saying "I just really wanted to have a chat about what happened last night". That it made you feel bad - not because he was masturbating - but because it highlights to you the lack of intimacy in your marriage and makes you feel incredible sad and unwanted. Say that you don't want him to feel embarrassed, after all it is a completely natural thing to do - it is the fact that you are not having sex that is awry.

I kind of think of what happened as a positive thing, in that it can instigate you both to really talk about how you feel about this and you can explain your sense of rejection. Forget the embarrassment factor. The crux of the matter is the 'why don't you want to have sex?".

Wishing you lots of luck for tonight.

Are you physically affectionate now? Do you cuddle in bed - do you kiss each other hello and goodbye? Does he touch your hair, hold your hand in public?

Did you ever do these things or was sex quite separate to your daily lives, even when you were "doing it"?

I know how you feel. I suppose it's quite distressing to find out that your seemingly sexless DH does actually have a libido, an appetite for the carnal. Because it would be easier to dismiss him as not bothered about sex at all, but if he's sorting himself out there clearly is some kind of urge going on. Knowing that, all of a sudden, can feel very hurtful I think. I don't have a problem with masturbation per se, but I think in this kind of case, you are understandably shocked and hurting.

I would strongly recommend Relate for this sort of thing. Although my partner and I have split up now, when we first went to Relate and I mentioned he had stopped wanting sex, the counsellor was very curious about why. She didn't brush it under the carpet or make me feel a fool for wanting some intimacy with him. Actually I think what she said was something along the lines of: "Many couples find that sex is a really important part of their relationship" to XP, just kind of telling him that it was not normal to have a sexless relationship, at least - that hadn't been agreed on by both people. One person wanting sex but not getting it, that's not a good situation. It's different if neither of you are bothered and are happy with the set up.

I also stopped initiating, because I was sick of doing all the work. It was a crushing blow when the sex just ended. It was all me, all the effort was me, and when I didn't bother there was nothing. I was quite angry about that, and my desire for him evaporated because of that anger. The counsellor also said it was very common for people to not fancy their partner when they are feeling hurt, rejected of annoyed.

Do you think he would go to Relate or similar, using the incident as a kind of springboard for deciding to do something about things? Do you WANT to make it work, and do you think he does? Is he prepared to put in the effort to save the relationship, or does he just want to tick along as you are, with you very unhappy?

Very, very sad for you SAS. As other posters have said, its encouraging that given you have 2 DC you obviously did have a sex life pre-DC. I think (not that Im any kind of authority!) it is important to find out at what point and why this changed.

Was it directly after the conception/birth of DC2? Did you have a difficult preganancy or traumatic birth which could have affected the way DH sees you- eg as someone to be 'nurtured' or 'looked after' rather than a lover.

You mention that you got fed up of trying a few years ago- when you say 'trying' do you mean simply initiating the sex, or do you mean that he was trying too but couldnt get erect? is impotency a factor? I know he was masturbating the other day but in my IME quite often pressure is a factor in being impotent which doesnt affect solo masturbation.

have youever discussed your feelings with him, when you were trying to iniate sex? When you were trying to initiate it, what was his reaction/his reasons for it not happening?

lots of questions- sorry! But hopefully some of the answers might help focus your thinking?best of luck. Above all, I really think as other posters have said, talking about it with him in a calm and rational way is going to be the key thing.

So sad for you. You sound like you are at rock bottom.

I think it's positive that he wanted to talk about it, though, although I know you must have been in a bit of shock/feeling hurt etc at the time. No matter how great a parenting team you are/nice fellow he is etc you seem to resent living in a sexless marriage.

Where to go from here?

Well, if you don't like the idea of counselling than all you can do is talk and spend time with each other. Can you book a babysitter and go out for a meal and just spend some enjoyable time together where you are not just 'mummy' and 'daddy'. I have no family support in the UK (neither does DH) we are truly on our own with no back-up other than friends. But we try to go out once a month for a meal. Sometimes we do a babysitting 'swap' with another couple to make it cheaper. If you get nowhere talking perhaps some counselling on your own would be helpful.

It's your marriage you are living in, not anyone elses and no one can improve it but you and your DH. Where do you see yourselves in one or five years time if things don't change?

For a long time there was no sex but we were still very affectionate. Now we're not particularly affectionate. I usually get a kiss when he gets in from work, but very few spontaneous cuddles or snuggling in bed, and always initiated by me. I think this has everything to do with the fact that I have a gorgeous, plump, cuddly little baby who needs kisses and snuggles all day long (and half the night too). I'm breastfeeding. Baby co-sleeps. I am not wanting for physical affection.

I hope that doesn't sound screwed up. Affection from a child is different from affection from a husband or lover, and I'm not comparing the two. Really hope people understand what I mean.

It is not that I don't want counseling. It's just not remotely a possibility because of current circumstances. I would definitely be looking at setting some up if things were different.

Well I don't think I have the strength to bring up last night's interruption with dh. I sort of hope he brings it up. It would be a sign that he wants things to change. This thread has not been a waste of everyone's time though because it's stopped me feeling so wretched, it's made me realise I'm not alone, and it's made me realise things have to change. I know that. I just can't. Not right now. I don't know how, and I just couldn't cope if I got rejected again. I need to be feeling less vulnerable in other respects. We're talking about a man who won't give me a foot rub because feet are yucky. I think he has fairly serious hangups.

Someone earlier suggested counseling for him and that's something I'd never thought of and will think about.

TillyMint I'll investigate that link. Thank you.

I'm going to read the thread through again later and think about all the advice. I like the idea of starting with very small steps. A meal out would be a start. It's years since we went out together. We used to love going out, and went out for meals and to the theatre, just us, often.

I have to do children stuff now.

Cheerfulvicky, your paragraph

"I also stopped initiating, because I was sick of doing all the work. It was a crushing blow when the sex just ended. It was all me, all the effort was me, and when I didn't bother there was nothing. I was quite angry about that, and my desire for him evaporated because of that anger."

made me yelp "YES!" and frighten the cat.

sillyannesad - i think you must be me writing your posts. Especially when you say every conversation you have about it ends up with you saying 'please have sex with me' (gee, that really gets you going doesn't it? NOT!)

My husband also says 'i know, i know, we need to work on, I'll try' and then nothing happens.

When it does happen it's rubbish cos i think we've analysed it so much and talked it to death that now we're totally self conscious about who's initiated it.

that's why i've given up.

Tonight I think you should not think 'right, things must change'. Obviously, they do need to change but maybe you're not ready for that yet. My advice would be to just get how you feel off your chest. Just tell him how upset it made you and how unattractive you feel. At the very least it will give him opportunity to reasurre you and hug you and tell you that you're not minging!

God, me and you should go for a brew - we could talk for hours on this one!

"very few spontaneous cuddles or snuggling in bed, and always initiated by me. I think this has everything to do with the fact that I have a gorgeous, plump, cuddly little baby who needs kisses and snuggles all day long (and half the night too). I'm breastfeeding. Baby co-sleeps. I am not wanting for physical affection.

I hope that doesn't sound screwed up. Affection from a child is different from affection from a husband or lover, and I'm not comparing the two. Really hope people understand what I mean."

That doesn't sound screwed up at all.

I just wonder whether he has started to view you as a mummy, and your body as your children's preserve, rather than seeing you as his wife and lover. No idea how that can be fixed but I'm thinking professional help is going to have to be involved. I'm intrigued as to why you are so insistent that you cannot get counselling at the moment. Your business of course but is there a genuine physical obstacle, or are you avoiding?

I am in the same boat as you too. Seems there are a lot of desperate housewives out there!!! I know exactly how you feel: after so much rejection, you start to act frostily towards them which makes them less likely to approach you: vicious circle.

Our vicious cycle has got so bad now that I don't think we'll ever get back on track..we're almost embarrassed to touch each other.

I have tried everything from not putting pressure on ... leaving it a few months to see if he initiates: not. to the usual going out, wearing nice undies, etc, etc.

I honestly think some men are too lazy to have sex, proper sex which means laying on a bit of charm, cuddling, foreplay, etc that a lot of men can't be bothered doing. They just want a quick fix. Plus I think my dh like yours is a bit prudish and squeamish...opposite to me. He likes to clean up right afterwards...how romantic!

We're stuck with a huge mortgage. Have a lovely dd. So divorce is not appealing right now. We manage to get along day to day and I am afraid to say I have found my kicks outside the marriage. I have waited 8 years or more for an improvement which hasn't happened and I always warned him that I might have an affair if he carried on this way - saying things would change, yes he did fancy me, blah, blah. Not ideal but at least I am feeling desired by someone. So I obviously don't know what the answer is for you, but I know this can't go on forever for us, as it can't for you. A relationship with so much bitterness and resentment can never work in the long term I think.

You say the last time you had sex was June 2007? Was that when your youngest child was conceived? How old is the baby now?

Are you and your DH sharing the marital bed if you are co-sleeping?

Is it possible that your DH no longer sees you as his 'sexy wife' as you are still breastfeeding and the baby is in your bed? (Not judging BTW just trying to get an idea of where your DH's head is with all this)

How did you get the 'spark' back after your first child? (assuming you did as you have 2 children now!)

If talking to him about this subject is too difficult could you show him this thread?