Could someone please explain to me what just happened here, in this exchange with XP?

[cheerfulvicky]

I frequently feel baffled by the arguments/what he calls discussions between me and XP. Bit of background, we are living in his house still, have recently split and I am moving out soon with DS who is 6 months. My older threads talk a bit more about the situation, but basically I feel he has been emotionally abusive, and he disgrees.

Today some forms arrived about the tax credits, end of joint claim etc. All fine. I mention child maintenace as they want proof of anything I am getting from him for Housing Benefit. I say to him that perhaps we could come to a voluntary arrangement, ensuring his tenner a week or so will go to DS and not the gov.

He says: "well it depends on access, doesn't it"

I say "Well, yes, of course. The amounts and so forth depend on access. But the general idea of a voluntary agreement seems a lot nicer, don't you think?"

Him: "Yes but it all depends on access and what you ant to do about that."

'Me: "i've been thinking about it, and I asked on MN. The general rule seems to be little and often, not 1 week on, 1 week off each. Babies need to be with their primary carer"

Him: "There's no reason why we wouldn't be joint promary carers, I'd be happy to do it full time if need be"

Me: (getting worried) "Yes but, I've been his main carer for the first six months of his life."

Him: "I've been around as well though, haven't I?'

Me: "Yes, of course you have. But I've been with him all the time, and you've only been there some of the time."

Him: "So?"

Me: "well, he needs his mum at this age. he needs security and familiarity, and I am the main person who cares for him."

Him: ...

Me: "Anyway, I've been thinking, that the best way is probably to arrange something temporary for now, for the next few weeks, that we are both happy with. And then wait until I am settled in (newtown, 30 miles away) and the emotions have died down a bit, and then talk again. If we can't agree on something then, we'll have to go to a mediator."

Him: "Yeah!" (looks as though he thinks this is likely)

Me: (carefully) "Because I don't think we can agree on anything at the moment, why you are angry with me (he nods) and I'm afraid of you.

Him: (changing manner completely) Oh don't be so ridiculous!

Me: "What?

Him: "What have I ever done to make you afraid of me?!"

Me: "I-"

Him: "That's just so ridiculous!"

Me: "me being afraid of you is ridiculous?"

Him: "yes!"

Me: (slowly, trying to remain calm and not shake) "Well, if I feel afraid of you, that's how I feel. That's my opinion"

Him: "Okay, then I'm afraid of you! I'm terrified of you. And that's my opinion. Can't you see how ridiculous that sounds?!"

Me: "I-"

Him: (getting up suddenly)"Oh just forget it, I'm not talking about this. You just let me know what you want to do,a nd if I have a problem with that then I'll see you in court!"

(comes back in while I am typing this)

"Why don't you phone up the womans refuge, say you are in fear of your life and leave?"

Me: "What??"

Him: "I'm not living under the same roof as you while these accusiations re levelled at me. So either you go or I do. I don't want to live with you anymore!"

Me: "I thought we arranged that I was moving out on the 20th? I don't have anywhere to go until then"

Him: "Then phone up the police, say you are living in fear! Then you can leave. [...] Would you like me to hit you, would that make it better? No its not a threat, more like a suggestion! [...] I'm going, I can't even stand being in the same room as you. It's not the truth, it's just your version of the truth! [...] I'm going, and I don't ever want to be with you again."

Worried he might top himself now. help, please?

Well, stop worrying about him topping himself for a start, it's just yet another way for him to abuse you.

Just start counting the days til you get out for you.

he sounds like he is worried about how it will all progress. You both need to be very clear here that access and maintenence are two separate things. Deal with them that way........your child is not 'pay per view!!'

"bye then - don't let the door hurt your arse"

He's trying to scare you in to staying with him.... he's an adult and thus is responsible for his own actions.

the most dangerous time in a relationship like this is when you're planning / trying to leave

oh and by the way - maintenance and contact are NOT connected. He pays maintenance regardless of whether he can see the DC. That's what a court rules.

Can you go about the preparations without discussing it again without support? I think he's just proved he can't have an adult conversation with you - I'd go straight to the mediator if I were you

This sounds exactly where me and DP were last year. I don;t know the history, so I am only going on what you have said here. I know things can get bad between warring couples and also that MN advice is not infallable - you are the only one who knows what is going on. If he is a total bastard, then you know that. If he is just fighting back at the thought of losing everything, you also know that. Or he might be struggling, only you have the capacity for that insight. But you owe it to your DS to look at all options and also to question if you have been right about him 100% of the time.

If he is anything like DP, who is a good man, but lashed out emotionally just as well as I did when he felt under attack, he is terrified by the sound of it. And very upset. He is going to lose his son. Put yourself in his shoes about that.

It also sounds like he does not want to split up, but feels you have made your mind up and so is in defensive mode. By the sounds of it, he's dying inside at the thought of losing his family and then being told what scraps of time he can have.

"I feel he has been emotionally abusive, and he disgrees." Again, this is exactly the situation I was in. The thing is, I was wrong. We were both being emotionally abusive to each other - both constantly on defencive and thinking the other was attacking. Its a vicious cycle. The firsy year with a baby is very hard on relationships and if you drift apart and lose the capacity to put yourself in your partners shoes, it fast becomes a you vs me situation, when actually, you both usually want the same things.

Sometimes, just as an exercise, it can help to ask not what your partner can do for you, but what you can do for your partner.

If you are beyond doing that (both of you) then I think you owe it to him and your son to seriously look into how both of you could be joint primary carers. It can work if both parents are commited. You could live in the same street if needs be.

Oh, cheerfulvicky, poor you!

From what you've posted here, he sounds angry rather than suicidal.

Is there anyway you can go to mediation soon to sort out provisional access arrangements? It sounds like the sooner he gets a reality check the better.

Hang on in there.

Me: "Anyway, I've been thinking, that the best way is probably to arrange something temporary for now, for the next few weeks, that we are both happy with. And then wait until I am settled in (newtown, 30 miles away) and the emotions have died down a bit, and then talk again. If we can't agree on something then, we'll have to go to a mediator."

Him: "Yeah!" (looks as though he thinks this is likely)

That is where the convesation should have ended.

You continued the convesation (I am not having a go at you) but you need to know when to stop the convesation and just move away. You had put in the conclusion about your dc and that should have been the end.

Only talk about your dc and not about you and him you being scared him being ridiculous. You have parted - so dont even go there.

This is really hard to do - but you need to for your own sanity

ONLY talk about your dc and NOTHING else. You are now not a couple so do not need to talk about how you feel about each other, where you are scared of him or not should not be talked about. (with him anyway)

Are you scared of him? Scared he'll do what?

Yeah, I'm scared of the way he uses stuff against me from when I have been vulnerable/trusting before. His anger intimidates me, though he's never hit me and I'm fairly sure he never would.

Good point about ending discussions before they get nasty, I'm awful at that - I just go on and on. Thanks.

We've talked a little more but no progress. The thing is, his abusive behaviour has been very subtle and convert, just mild constant undermining and power struggles, nagging at me like I'm a little girl. I put up with it for so long, but I'm starting to wish I HAD just said "I'm leaving you because I'm unhappy in this relationship and you don't treat me with respect" rather than "You're abusive." he's just locked onto the word and is making such a big deal about being offended, me soiling his reputation, that his original behavior has been forgotten.

That's a really good post monkeytrousers, and I agree.

He does sound defensive to me and maybe scared about how much he is going to see his son.

By you saying that you've been the main carer for the past 6 months, he might perceive that as you saying you are a more important parent than him. And to hear that - even if it isn't what your intention is - will be upsetting and will make him defensive.

I think money comes into things when people feel they don't have much control over their situation. And he is possibly feeling like that - like you are going to call the shots over when he sees his child. The one thing he can use to "fight back" about is money - not that it's the right thing to do.

He might also have done his homework and read that the amount of maintenance that gets paid is dependent on the number of nights the child spends with the non-resident parent. And I believe that if it is a shared care arrangement then no money changes hands. Maybe that's what he is meaning?

Your ep works part time - what days or pattern does his work follow?

1 week on, 1 week off.

Hi vicky, hope you're still cheerful. I agree that the conversation went on longer than was good for you. We have similar ones, but now as soon as he turns on me I end the conversation. My H has been away on business all week (it's been bliss) but was on the phone within minutes of getting home insisting on knowing exactly when I would be home (I was on motorway having picked DD1 up from boarding school, which he knew I would be doing at that time) and said "I do want to spend some time with my children this weekend" in a very aggressive tone. It's not their fault or mine he was away this week, for goodness sake! He's out tomorrow and that's not my fault either.

I'm sending you some of my inner strength - I've got so much better at stating my case and preventing him from criticising me and trying to make me feel bad the last few months, and I want you to do the same.

Thanks He's really made me feel today that I am mad for having a problem with him, I am starting to feel like maybe I am crazy and have imagined everything. I wish heartily I had kept a record of everything he did that was frightening, worrying or unkind, but I have felt too drained to keep a diary. All I have is my posts on MumsNet, so I'm searching through them all to collect them into one document which I will then print out. And I think I will give woman's aid a call as soon as I get a moment, to try and start to the process of arranging mediation.

I'll try and be as strong as you, I really admire what you're doing lilac...

It sounded to me like he was fustrated as I don't think he understands what you mean when you say your frightened of him as he has never been violent with you, he dosen't realise its his behaviour

Sorry I have to disagree with the above and think he knows exactly what he's doing. Don't have the conversations with him about him scaring you - he's never going to agree and he'll just use it to twist stuff and get you confused. How do I know this? well they all read from exactly the same script!!! stay strong and get out.

Remember he wants his own way and will do anything to get you to agree - and even if you were mad it's perfectly ok to not want to be with him - and you know you're not mad really anyway - might be a good idea to google 'gaslighting' because that's what he's doing.

Thanks kate. I re-read a post of yours when printing out my earlier thread and it really helped. I'd heard of gaslighting but never thought he was doing it - because secretly I can see his side, how he would think I am crazy.

But anyway, you're right _ I'll try not to get in these conversations in the future, and will try not to give him fresh fodder to use as ammunition. I'm hopeful that mediation will sort things out access-wise. I think when we have talks like that, terrible all day events that just go round in circles, it makes my world black. I can't see anything anymore, can't see the truth, what is real, what is in my head. I see a future where he paints me as crazy and has DS all the time, and ironically I know he sees the same thing in reverse.

He's maintained since the start that I will do a runner with DS and he will never see him. It feels at times as though he is trying to goad me into doing just that, and I can't understand why. Would that be easier, in some sick way? Does it really have to be all or nothing, with him?

But this is the man who defines compromise as 'no-one getting what they want'.

Like monkeytrousers I have been in exactly this situation, and Ivykaty is absolutely right too. It's a time of madness - you are leaving, he knows you have to/want to to keep your act together, so he can let go and be angry and childish and obstructive and irrational and unhelpful. Why would he want to make things easy for you?

It will pass, eventually. Stick to facts, avoid discussions, don't expect him to help you at all, don't get drawn in. Make firm proposals, don't expect him to agree with them and don't expect him to come up with sensible alternative solutions.

He is hurting. Wounded bull - lashes out, won't let anyone help, makes everything worse.

Soon it will all be over

He wants total control of the situation going forward and wants to hold money over you as a threat/bribe...

If it's such a small amount, you might be better off just going through the proper channels. HOnestly, don't give him the power over you.

He can see your child if he is civil and reasonable. Do you think he can manage that?!

Just a quick post:

dittany, I did read (skim read, anyway) the book and it is amazing. I have lent it to my mum to read, which was possibly stupid as I could do with it today! But I haven't had the time for readoing each night before bed, I am so tired and often its not the kind of thing I want to concentrate on before falling asleep.

But yes, it did ring many bells for me, my XP is contained in that book. Not all of it, but a lot of it is him, or has been him most of the time until I started challenging it. The attitude remains though, the battles.

I won't rule out a refuge. In some ways it would be better - in some ways worse. I promise to consider it. I'll talk to my mum too. Thanks guys x

I just had a look at Patricia Evans' website and it seems pretty manipulative to me actually.

She says for instance, "Similarly, they may think that they have a right to put down their partner, or to tell their partner what s/he?s thinking, meaning, and so forth. They might think they are entitled to act the way they do because of their age, because they?ve been around the place longer, are of a superior gender or race, or because they make more money than their mate. Their sense of entitlement blinds them to their abusive behavior."

This is all speculation and by that token, it can work both ways as a victim and not an abuser similarly thinks...;

"...that they have a right to accuse their partner, or to tell their partner what s/he?s thinking, meaning, and so forth. They might think they are entitled to act the way they do because of their age, because they?re feeling insecure and confused, are of an inferior gender or race, or because they make less money than their mate. Their low self esteem blinds them to their manipulative behavior.

I am not saying this about this poster at all, just making a point about the highly subjective logic in Evans' book. It's simply encouraging a 'you vs me' - 'victim and abuser' dynamic, rather than asking you to look deep inside at at yourself for clues.

MT, interesting point. I would like to know what other MNers think about that, as I personally don't have the mental energy to really approach it right now

Mrsjammi, no that's okay. It does come across as a tad direct but I know its not meant unkindly. XP has said the same as you, and I'm torn between seeing his point but ALSO at the same time thinking:

"You have not pulled your weight since this baby was born, yes you have done stuff but you've never bathed him, even when invited to, you never kiss or cuddle him or say you love him, you've never done a night shift and you've never once bloody offered to take him while I do something. Every ounce of effort you have put in, I have had to ask, wheedle or beg for, and I always feel guilty as well. And on top of that your continual rudeness and anger has left me feeling nervous and wary, like I'm walking on eggshells. So yes, I'm all in favour of equal parenting, but I can't help feeling that I have done more for DS, and I would be a better parent to him. This gives me the right to say, I want to take him with me. Because you've shown that you don't give as much of a shit as me, and his welfare matters more than your feuding. Until 2 weeks ago you wanted to walk out of his life because it was better for him, now you want him all the time. This is about your vendetta against me, NOT DS's best interests and you know it."

Ahem . This is what I would say to XP if I had the guts, or was daft. I don't and I'm not, because there are still 2 weeks til I move out, and he has the ability to make those days hell if he wants to. In many ways he already is.

Thanks for responding. I'm off to bed now so won't be on here til tomorrow...