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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Think my H is NPD - and I will lose my children. Very scared now

71 replies

HoneyBadger · 06/03/2009 10:29

Well it's the final push for me now. I'm leaving H in two weeks time, I have rented a property for myself, made all the practical arrangements and a Plan. Going to my parents for the first fortnight because I will feel safer and also to give me some time to fit the new house out. I am very lucky that I have the support to do this.

But emotionally I am in a terrible mess, I am very anxious and especially because I'm worried I will lose my children and that no-one will believe me.

A bit of background, H is gorgeous, witty,intelligent, considerate and charming - he is silver tongued and could sell ice to the eskimos.

i'm an educated professional, drive a beautiful car, I look well-turned out, friends tell me I'm stunning though I have such low self-confidence it doesn't feel that way. I find it difficult to speak out for myself.

We live in an expensive house - we look like the golden family. We pretend to friends and neighbours that H is a business man working from home (he believes he is really a property developer having renovated some houses years ago and being reasonably successful). In reality he has been on sick leave for 10 years with depression, claiming benefits etc., though he's well enough to participate in expensive hobbies and dream up far-fetched business ideas. Whilst I have worked to support the pretend life style we cannot afford - luckily I have a good career.

I realise that I have majorly colluded with H to decieve people on a number of levels and I am probably going to get my comeuppance quite soon. (He's proficient at conning people who are either vulnerable or don't take the trouble to check him out properly). But if I ever dared criticise him or question him he flies into horrific rages - and I loved him so so much.

You see H is a subtle abuser, he fits several of the Lundy Bancroft abuser profiles, I can tick off a number of the Women's Aid signs of domestic abuse. I spend a lot of time at home being frightened of his moodiness, unpredictability, accusations of my infidelity or cruel behaviuor towards him etc. I don't love him enough or show him affection or give him enough sex - his words.

I'm pretty certain having researched this week that H also fits the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It's almost a direct match and for this I feel so sorry for him in a strange way.

I also believe he abuses our DS (who is 18) from what H and son tell me (conflicting stories of course)and never any witnesses to anything - by that I mean overly controlling, angry, verbally abusive, puts him down and is overly critical.

But he dotes on our 9 year old DD who adores him.

Over the past 26 years I have been with H - never had anotehr partner - I have absolutely adored and worshipped him, loved him so much that I would do anything for him. It is only in the past 2.5 years that I noticed his behaviour becoming more overtly abusive and finally woken up and smelled the coffee.

I think I have the strength to leave now, his reaction will be truly terrifying not least the charm offensive when he spins me his stories and begs me to stay whilst threatening suicide.

My biggest worry is my children. I tried to talk to DS about his father's behaviour this week, almost directly after an "incident" when H had been abusive to him. DS said it's no big deal mum. I think the DC's will be in greater denial than me and will fall for his charm and stay with their father.

My parents tell me not to worry, that other people see more than I think. That I have a blind spot for H. They say DC's may be taken in initially but H won't be able to keep up lovely behaviour and although I might lose them for a while they will come back. Both DC's love my parents dearly so they will be a draw for them to come with me too.

I'm sorry this is a ranting post but my head is all over the place, through my own stupidity, denial and naivety I have allowed myself to be completely brainwashed by this man.

I'd love some perspective on this from anyone with the time to read it. What I have written here is only a flavour of what my H is like, i have stories about him and his own father (a conman who has made the national news) to make your hair curl.

Everyday I wake up and have to convince myself I am not insane. How can I convince anyone else let alone my own children if I am not sure myself?

If you have time to read this and offer any reassurance it will make so much difference. I should go to a counsellor I know but I am too scared she will say there is something wrong with me.

Help!

OP posts:
sparkyoldbint · 06/03/2009 13:20

SCL that's what he does too - he's in total cahoots with the new family and they think he's wonderful! He would never even consider that anyone would think negatively of him and accepts no responsibility for his actions.

JackBauer · 06/03/2009 13:22

HoneyBadger, I don't have any real advice but want to add my support. I am one of 4 DD's of a father like this, the more I read of NPD the more I think it matches him.
My father was a closet homosexual while he was married to my mother so my DBro is the one who was left alone, otherwise it was the same.
As it stands now, after my mum left him when we haad all left home, DBro and I haven't spoken to him in about 5 years, and are much happier.
one of my sisters kept contact but has been ground down by his constant lies/whines etc that she ahs now cut contact.
You need to trust in your children that they will see the bad side. And once my parenst split up a lot of their mutual friends stayed in contact with my mother as they knew something was wrong. NPD's only have to let the facade slip once for someone to have clicked they are a classic abuser so please don't worry about people not be;ieving you, your parents are probably right and it may surprise you.
Good luck.

auntyitaly · 06/03/2009 13:30

Sooner or later your DCs will wise up. And the best thing you can possibly do for them is to get out - the betrayal of one parent is bad enough, but to have a second parent as a colluder (ie who perpetrates the fantasies, etc.) makes things even worse. You have saved your children from that.

Stay sane for the DCs too - someone needs to be. I don't wish to be gloomy, but one day yr DH may start on them. I have an idea you may subconsciously be aware of this, which is why you are so worried about your own reliability in remaining strong. Please don't worry - you have done an incredible, strong thing, you are in the most grim part of it, no wonder you feel awful. Things will improve - when you are feeling up to it, do something new to take your mind off DH.

lulu41 · 06/03/2009 13:46

Hiya Honey I too have written to you under another name I believe - I have not read all of this thread but wish you luck with this - will read all of this later when I get the time and check on you soon good luck girl x

HoneyBadger · 06/03/2009 13:46

Mumsnut - you are absolutely right my solicitor gave me this advice last September when H was still unemployed. Thank the lord he got a job in December with a company that did not check his medical background or false employment history. Another reason for me to get out quickly whilst he is demonstrating he can hold down a job. He is due in court in a couple of months for an aggressive offence and so could lose job so I need to move quickly! Solicitor says if I go now we should be able to go for 50/50 split.
I love Tiffany - I have tried to leave DH twice before and he threatened suicide in front of children. He claims that he was traumatised in childhood by his father making a suicide bid when his mother kicked him out. Yet he is so selfish he will risk traumatising his own DC's by threatneing the same thing!
MrsMerryHenry - thanks for really suportive post. I have contacted Women's Aid, they helped me identify what H is and with making my escape plan.
JackBauer & PlumBumMum - so sorry you went through this during childhood, but by sharing your experiences it is really helpful to me to try and understand the child's perspective.
SparkyOldBint - I believe H really loves DD too. He adored DS when he was small. I think it will alter when DD gets to teen years, I would worry about her safety then. As I see it, no-one can live up to his very high standards of how a wife or child should be. DD will not measure up and be perfect enough, H will turn on her. That's my theory anyway, so my instinct is she is safe now - but in danger of being brainwashed. In fact he has "taught her" how to critiscise my appearance in the morning, sadly.

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 06/03/2009 15:01

.....and he threatened suicide in front of children.....

yeh my ex did that...

funny how the script repeats...

where do they learn it?

messymissy · 06/03/2009 16:14

OMG OMG OMG!!!!! thank you so much for starting this thread, its clearly is not at all easy to put this sort of thing in writing but i had never heard of NPD and did a search and OMG i recognise my DP in the how to spot NPD profile!!!!!

will go back and re-read this thread and search for more info.

his mum is the same btw.

good luck with your new start and thanks again.

HoneyBadger · 06/03/2009 16:27

MessyMissy - there is a lot of information on the web about this and some of it is easier to understand than others. I struggled with terms like "grandiose behaviour" and "capriciousness" for a long while. It takes some time to get your head round and I was very shocked for a long while when it all clicked into place.

Do search my previous threads if it helps for more descriptions of my H behaviour. I know what you mean, it takes me a long time to write it down and articulate what happens,let alone explain to my children.

OP posts:
HoneyBadger · 06/03/2009 16:30

Also my H's father fits the NPD profile and his mother is similar to me. It feels to me like history is repeating itself and this is why I am panicking a bit as his parents breakup was not pretty and had huge repurcussions.

OP posts:
OrmIrian · 06/03/2009 16:31

Good luck Honeybadger.

I'm lucky enough not to be in your position but I feel for you

stealthsquiggle · 06/03/2009 16:41

Well done HoneyBadger. Hold tight to your research and what you know when all around you are (hopefully not) doubting you.

GypsyMoth · 06/03/2009 16:47

It's the suicide bit that worries me. My ex threatened it alot, then progressed to attempting it in front of me..... Zthen suggesting he might take the kids with him. I took all this very seriously as his brother gassed himself in his car, and at the time some father had taken his and his sons lives.. It's just not something to take lightly. That's why I'm worried for you.

GettingaGrip · 06/03/2009 18:33

Hello

I left my N-H nearly two years ago. My daughter came with me and my son (younger than yours) stayed behind and came to me once a week. This nearly killed me, but I stuck with it and made sure that I showed him my love when he was at mine, and was very careful about how I explained why i had to leave.

My son has been idolised by my exH-Ns family and it has been very very difficult.

I wanted to try to turn him into a normal boy and not another N. It was me that always had to discipline him, my ex-HN said to me once 'I will NEVER discipline DS'.

In contrast my daughter has been treated like shit by the whole family (family business all are involved so no escape from the influence).

Your daughter will still be idolised because she has not yet begun to show her own mind yet I would think.

I just want to say to nyou that my son is now downstairs with his friends...he is with me now 6 days a week, and is much happier than he has ever been.

We have our moments...but he has finally seen that to speak to me as his father has done for twenty years is not on any more.

It has been very very hard work, and at every turn I am still undermined by my ex-HN. I still am terrified that he will turn into an N.

I wish you all the luck in the world and ubderstand everything you are going through.

If you would like to CAT me please feel free.

xxxxxxxxx

OnlyWantsOne · 06/03/2009 19:22

I think you're very brave, and strong and resiliant and you can get through this and make a better life for yourself and DCs.

Good Luck x

MrsMerryHenry · 07/03/2009 00:41

Honeybadger,

You mentioned the difficulty you've had in getting your DS to a counsellor, and his suicide attempt. I'm wondering - how openly can you talk with your DS about the problems with his father? If the answer is that you haven't really discussed it openly, it could possibly be that you have inadvertently colluded with your husband, creating a wall of silence and thereby increasing anxiety for your son. If this is what's happening, I am sure you will have done this unwittingly for the very best of reasons - in order to preserve family unity, with the hope of assisting your DH and DS in developing a positive relationship, etc. If this is the case it may now provide an opening to help you to help your son, and by no means should you blame yourself in any way.

My father did not have NPD, I'm sure of that, however he abused us verbally to a certain extent. During my teenage years my mother began to be more open with me about his faults, which provided a sort of safe haven for me and my feelings of rage and anxiety. I believe it also freed me up to provide a buffer for my younger brother (also a nine year age gap) against my father's unpleasant behaviour.

Perhaps you could provide such a safe haven for your son if you haven't already (you haven't mentioned this above - unless I've missed it). Since you'll soon need to explain to your children why you're leaving, you could create a forum where they can discuss any concerns they have with you, in private. Your DD will most likely find it much harder to deal with the emotional conflict having of an adoring father who she adores while on some level remaining aware of his inconsistencies, manipulativeness and harshness. She has possibly pushed this awareness to the back of her mind because she's still very young to have to handle such emotional complexity, but believe me, the knowledge will be there. At the very least she will be acutely aware of how appallingly your DH treats your DS, and will have asked herself why this is.

Despite your DCs having had different experiences of your DH, your DS may possibly be better equipped than you when it comes to explaining the dark side of your DH to your DD, simply because they have the same status within the family (i.e. as siblings their viewpoint will be more similar).

HoneyBadger · 07/03/2009 13:00

MrsMerryHenry - thank you for your incredibly timely post. I managed to log on and read it this morning. You are right I have created a wall of silence mainly through burying my head in the sand and hoping it will all get better and also through fear that H will find out I have talked about him.

After I read your post, I realised I had unusually an hour in the house on my own with DS. So I have sat him down and talked to him about my plans and about why I have to do this. Unfortunately I had to ask him to keep my plans a secret. DS would not talk about his feelings or how he felt about his father's behaviour towards him. (I still have no idea what DS suicide bid was about - he was very drunk was it drink, a girl or homelife - or an impulse. Don't think he'll ever tell me) I described his dad's behaviuor towards him as bullying but DS would not respond. However, DS did say that he has noticed and been worried about his father's behaviuor towards me for a long time. He fully understands why I have to do what I have to do and I have his support. Now he is going to take his time to think about his options. I assured him of my love and that there will always be a place for him with me and that he can talk to me or his grandparents about this over the coming fortnight. I feel that's one small step that I was scared of taken and now I can think about DD. I think MerryHenry you are right and DS who she relates really well to, may be able to help her more than I.

Getting A Grip - your post is also very very helpful thank you. You are right that is exactly what I have feared, not that the children will be taken away but that they won't choose to be with me or will break contact because they want to. I can understand how devastated you were to leave DS behind and congratulations on getting him back. I suspect that this might happen with DD and me and your story is an inspiration. I'll certainly CAT you as soon as it's safe for me to use CAT as we have a lot in common I think!

Thanks everyone for your good wishes.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 07/03/2009 14:23

My God, mumsnet at its very best.

I am in tears reading this thread. Brilliant support for the OP, especially MMH, how wonderful you are.

HB, I have no extra advice for you, but I offer my sincere best wishes to you < sniffle >

kettlechip · 07/03/2009 20:36

Good luck Honey Badger, I think you sound an incredibly brave and strong person, I will be thinking of you.

cheerfulvicky · 07/03/2009 21:07

Honey Badger, I just wanted to wish you all the best. I have followed your last thread as well and my heart goes out to you. My instinct is that all will be well regarding your DC's. I think they will understand and want to be with you. Loads of luck, and please keep us posted with your progress; we're all rooting for you.

LoveBeingAMummy · 08/03/2009 05:44

HB - I wish I was wearing a hat so I could take it off to you! Good luck and I hope it all goes to plan.

Just one thing that I hope I ahven't missed you mentioned at the beginning about Dh's 'business' stuff coming to a head and you not wanting to get caught up in it all - is this something you should be discussing with the police?

Unlikelyamazonian · 08/03/2009 08:24

HB, my exh is NPD. Instead of using terrible rages he used terrible silences to abuse me. He disappeared for days at a time on three occasions over the 7 years we were together and eventually disappeared abroad altogether. He chose to go when I was at my most vulnerable - with a small baby and no income. He stole all our savings and left me massively in debt.

I too was driven to madness, by his silences and disappearing acts. People did not believe my stories about him...he was very charming and plausible on the outside and appeared to dote on me and our baby son. But he was leading some kind of double life towards the end, looking at prostitutes and porn and planning his escape abroad.

He was living with another woman within two months of arriving in his new country, and had lied about his career to get a job. I hope he never ever returns.

Almost more importantly than me and our baby however, he also abandoned his two daughters by an ex. They were 9 and 11 when he vanished and they must be traumatised (I no longer have any contact with them. Not my choice - their mother's). We saw them regularly, he appeared to absolutely adore them and they had a strong relationship with him - particularly his youngest who was a real daddy's girl.

I was poleaxed when he left as I really did not think him capable of any such thing. But in reading up a LOT on NPD when he had gone I realise he did the very typical NPD trick of abandoning us at the point where the marriage was about to be over.

This is just some background for you, there is much more I could say and GettingaGrip and I have come to know each other, met, and shared much about our experiences. NPD must be one of the worst personality disorders because these creatures are so unpredictable and somehow insane while appearing to others to be rational, clever, generous, responsible, decent and hard-working. They can't keep the facade up though and move on...the need for sex is often a big driving force for them.

MrsMerryHenry's advice is fantastic. The support you are getting on here is wonderful and you will need it, though your parents sound brilliantly understanding. Thank god.

Some practical advice, though you may have done these things already: do let not let your H know in advance that you are going and take care of your finances - do not allow him to raid any joint accounts or savings accounts in the next few days. Transfer money into a sole account. If you have a joint account, be careful.

Hide and take with you things like birth certificates and you and your DCs passports. Take a set of keys to the marital home. Do not engage with any conversation with him after you have gone. Put the phone down, say nothing. Lean on your parents and perhaps get them to do any liasing with him to start with.

NPDers very rarely commit suicide though sometimes they do when they are old and have lost their looks. People shun them in the end because in their search for narcissistic supply their behaviour becomes more ugly and desperate.

On the emotional side of things: know that NPDers apparent love for their children is a smokescreen. As my counsellor has pointed out, they are objects - he knows how he SHOULD feel about them and treat them but it is all pretend. Things and people are meaningless to your H appart from a way of securing admiration and adoration...ie,Narcissistic supply.

He is probably nasty to your DS because at 18 he has grown up, is no longer of any use as supply and probably from the age of about 14 simply became a nuisance and even a threat, especially as a male. Your dd is still young enough to manipulate but he will give up on her and lose interest in her too eventually.

There is every chance that your H will not turn into the raging bull you fear once you have actually left him - because he will know the game is over, lose interest (devalue and discard) and just move on to his next victim. You must stand up to him though and be strong. Once you have left the home this will be easier to do believe me.

Try not to worry at this stage about making sure your children maintain a relationship or contact with him ..the most important relationships they are going to need from now on is with you, with their own friends, with each other and by the sounds of it with their grandparents.

Take things one step at a time. Be kind to yourself. Get some medication perhaps for any anguish. I went straight onto ADs and they helped a LOT.

You might consider going to a child law specialist and obtaining a Residence Order to say that your dd lives with you. These kind of measures help you feel safer and more in control.

You do not sound insane. You are doing so very well to have made your plan and be sticking to it.

I was a total mess for several months after I was abandoned. And through it all I had a 6 months old baby to care for. Today, I am so much happier. Poor maybe, but very happy. Honestly - I thought I never could be, I thought I would not survive the chaos and trauma. But I have found inner resources and have had the wonderful support of great RL friends and on MN. I work part-time, I am on tax credits and seem to be successfully fighting the bank over the debt my xh left me with.

I no longer have to deal with the long black silences, the disappearing acts, the money spent on ridiculous fantastical things we culdn't afford. I am free of his lying and never have to go on a miserable holiday with him again.

His family have blanked us totally but that also is good as they are a twisted bunch and I did not like them.

I don't know how my son will turn out or how his father's treatment of him will affect him in the long-term. But I love him to pieces and I am proud to say he is an exceptionally happy little boy and at 16 months is sociable, giggly, babbling, eats well and appears to love life. He is better off without a father who simply did not care one iota for him despite appearances.

This is long. Too long. Stay posting and let us all know how you get on. We are survivors of these awful mentally ill men and your children will grow up knowing that you always did your best for them to protect them and love them.

AnyFucker · 08/03/2009 09:43

< round of applause >

GettingaGrip · 08/03/2009 10:41

Well Done UA!! Spot on as ever. xxxx

I would just add that peace is what I feel now...I used to long for peace in my soul, and not understand why I didn't have it.

Both UA and I have N parents and siblings too, and the discovery that our partners were this devil-half-human has led to that knowledge about our families too.

Although this is shocking and takes a great deal of coming to terms with, in another way it just puts all the pieces of the nightmare jigsaw together, as at least now you know what you are dealing with.

ADs also help!!!

Ironically, now I know what my entire family and all the men in my life are, I can deal with them much better. I know they are warped and evil, so I don't get so upset at their treatment of me and my children, as I know it is not me....it's them!!!!

If I have no expectations of empathy, and expect them to be nasty and selfish, then I am never disappointed or frustrated with their behaviour.

Of course...the effect on me has been devastating....it takes years of therapy to recover from these devil-freaks...physically, mentally and financially.

But at least I know I have saved my children...and that is what is important, after all.

xxxxxx

Unlikelyamazonian · 08/03/2009 11:23

With all love, respect and hugs to GettingGrip though, I don't want you to be scared by the thought that it takes years of therapy...I think it is down to the individual. People cope with this sort of experience and get over things very differently.

In my case I had professional counselling for a few months from a psychotherapist. But I also read around the subject of personality disorders a great deal. I researched the subject and was for a while quite obsessive about it as I tried to make all the connections between my own upbringing, the relationships I had entered into and why I had actually married the most devious of them all. I took my conclusions or thoughts to my counsellor and she was very good at confirming my suspicions or ideas about what had made me a good target for these sorts of men (and in some cases women 'friends'.)

It is now 9 months since my husband abandoned us and I honestly don't feel I shall need much therapy anymore. My counsellor is now on 'standby' and I see her on an ad hoc basis. Before my h left I had already cut contact with my parents, whose behaviour - since reading around the subject - I now realise was very bizarre and very confusing. I think my slow realisation that something was very wrong with my family, my cutting my ties with them and general grappling with the fog of what was seriously wrong about my relationships, was an early signal to my husband that his game was nearly over. I didn't know that of course. I was changing, and I was going to find him out eventually...just as you have 'woken up and smelled the coffee' as you aptly put it.

My mother is certainly a narcissist though these disorders always overlap with one another...they are never straight forward. I was, to use the term, 'trained' as a child to accept and fit in with the behaviour and that carried through into my adult life.

Knowledge is power and having much knowledge now about NPD and anti-social/borderline disorders etc (although they are disappointingly textbook once you understand them) has been a comfort to me. If you have time HB (ironic that, as I used to be HumanBean on here when I was going through it all) spend some time reading about the disorder(s). I found a book called Children of the Self-Absorbed very interesting.

Also, and I have recommended this before, see if you can get onto the Women's Aid Pattern Changing course. They are run all over the country and you can self-refer. It is very good. It has had a deep impact on me. Not least because you meet other strong, feisty, loving women who have allowed themselves to be abused. There is a great comraderie and it helps you forgive yourself.

I had a date the other evening, with a chap I talked to on Plenty of Fish. I am only on the site because I am not going to let my exh stop me from living a full life again. But I know what I am doing now: I have learned a whole new language. This chap had Red Flags written all over him and I knocked things on ahead straight away. I see these men now. I recognise them. I am no longer the blind, vulnerable and easiy duped woman I was two years ago.

And I suspect I am a lot older than you - I am about to be 45 for chrissake. So you have much to be thankful for in that you have recognised what has been happening and are acting now. You can have a long and happy life ahead of you. Isn't that fantastic!

Bumperlicioso · 08/03/2009 11:24

I am horrified reading the OP and all your stories. But Honeybadger, you sound organised, switched on and like you have lots of support and excellent advice.

I don't know how you feel at all, but my DH was with another girl at the time we decided we wanted to be together and she had some kind of personality disorder, she refused to accept DH leaving her (no-one knew for years), threaten suicide, self harmed and for the year and a half we had left at Uni mine and Dh's relationship had to be kept secret, DH just wanted to wait until she was back home with her family, she blamed him, and he blamed himself, I blamed him too in some ways as he too had been colluding (I've never heard that before, but it makes sense) and in my eyes was letter her get a away with it. Obviously it's not that easy though, and I really feel for you and the fear you have of losing your children.

It sounds like other people are less conned by him than you think, I would hope that no court would take children away from a loving mum who could provide for her children. Do you have any proof of his lies? I wonder if it went to court whether people could testify that he was lying when it would be on record that he was off depressed and on benefits?

Anyway, good luck. You must be feeling terrified right now. We are here to hold your hand.