Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

[Nabster]

Here we go again.

I know I hava cheek just dipping in.

One day, when I am well, I promise I will try and help and support all of you.

My psych just rang to say I won't hear this week but when I do finally get somewhere, there isn't a waiting list.

My heart is broken, by the same person who has broken it on and off since I was 15. The psych said it is because everything is tied up with him, as he was the first person to ever be nice to me and the first time I ever felt happy in my life and because I am so depressed and low at the minute all I can think of his him.

I am doing all this to myself. He doesn't want to know me but reads some emails and deletes others without reading so no wonder my head is messed.

Need to get some self respect, some self confidence that I don't deserve this crap and a massive bottle of wine.

smithfield, i know what you mean. I used to feel bad because DD not so long ago seemed to prefer my MIL to me as well. I kind of knew it was because she got the warmth and acceptance from MIL that she longed for from me but which i was unable to give her. That must be why insecurely attached children are willing to go to any stranger who shows them attention, they must feel that perhaps their needs will be met by this person who seems to want them more than their own mother and so they go to them, like a flower will always grow towards the warmth and light of the sun.

smithfield, i'm glad things are better between you and DS now as they are between me and DD. I've no doubt this is a result of the work you are doing on yourself and the progress you have made in resolving your childhood issues.

The book I'm reading says bonding and attachment are 2 sides of the same coin. A bond is what a mother feels (or should feel, providing she does not have issues like us) towards her child and the child feels an attachment towards the mother and I suppose they feed off each other. If a mother feels that bond she will be warm, caring and loving towards her child and the child will feel safe and secure with her and will become attached to the mother. If a mother does not feel a bond she may be unable to offer her child the warmth and love he/she needs and the child will not form an attachment to the mother or will form an insecure attachment.

In my case my mother did not bond with me and i did not become attached to her; no wonder i always felt so lost and alone within my family, i think it is this attachment to the mothher that makes a child feel he/she belongs to the family. And instead of the bond/attachment growing stronger and deeper over time, me and my mother grew more distant and further apart over time, ending up where we are now, totally cut off from each other.

Hey Nabs, don't worry about helping others, like you said you need to help yourself before you can help anyone else. Please keep posting and getting things off your chest on here.

I feel completely broken hearted and don't know if I will or can get through this. Don't know if I even want to try, or have the energy to do so.

Nabster - you are not being cheeky! Please keep posting and talk to us. When you are in a low point there is no way you can support other people, you need to look after yourself.

Oneplusone - your post rings so true with me. I too felt numb when I fell pregnant with my DS. I had wanted children all my life, obsessed about it, yet here it was and I wasn't happy. I too fell pregnant very quickly and had issues around the sex of the baby. I was the other way around, I wanted a girl. To make up for the mother/daughter bond I never had with my adoptive mother and didn't have the chance with my birth mother. I too think I had a degree of antenatal depression, looking back, or certainly anxiety.

I worried obsessively about my weight gain. I had been brought up to believe that being slim was everything and I couldn't get used to my changing body. I didn't bond with my DS in utero, despite desperately wanting children. It is strange. I also was dealing with my toxic parents, having frequent rows with my mother.

When he was first born, I loved him right away and I think the want for a girl wained to some extent. However that fierce bond took longer. I did feel a bit detached. He wasn't a settled baby and I used to get angry with him. I think some of the anger I had buried for years came out. Your theory about the eldest child being scapegoat really sent shivers down my spine. I was anxious, depressed at times and lonely and I knew I had to sort myself out for my DS sake.

I was still trying to please my parents. Visiting them more than I wanted to and lettting them ruin my happiness. Crunch came after a nasty row at my parent's house which my DH witnessed. He finally realised how toxic they were.

I saught counselling, took ADs for the anxiety and began to rebuild my mental health. The bond with DS is now strong but I do remember that he never really had stranger anxiety either. Was that because I didn't bond straight away?

I have created distance with my parents. I don't phone very often (in fact I never speak to my father on the phone). Contact is limited to a couple of times a year but on my terms. I NEVER spend time on my own with them, DH is always there.

Consequently I am much more positive about this pregnancy. I have already bonded with my daughter (it is a girl) and the anxiety/depressive feelings have lifted. Although I am tired and I do snap at my DS sometimes, I feel more love for him than ever. My parents won't be here to ruin it as they are only visiting once.

The grandfather I never got a chance to meet (my adoptive mother's first husband) is coming to visit in September. I believe they manipulated and kept him out of my life because of their own issues.

I don't want this to sound smug. I still have issues/bad days. Just want to suggest it is possible to find happiness after a toxic childhood.

This thread has been so helpful in keeping me positive during this pregnancy I must thank you all for being there.

Thank you.

Going to the group again tonight. Was told last week my mother rejected me. Never actually thought about it in those words before and feel a bit mixed up by it. Have been rejected quite a lot now I come to think about it.

I have never understood "better the devil you know" more than right now.

I am feeling relieved that I have finally managed to really face up to the skeleton that was lurking in my cupboard that i was too scared to look at.

I was beginning to realise a while ago that i probably had an insecure attachment to my mother as a child. My counsellor mentioned it quite a few times but i just ignored her. I didn't want to go there. I was too scared of what it had meant for me as a child and the long term consequences for me as an adult. I was also scared as as i have described above i had started recognising signs in DD that probably meant she had an insecure attachment to me. And my worst fear of all was that i would inflict the same pain on my DD that I had inflicted on me by my mother's distance, however unintentional and inadvertent.

It's only now that as i said i can feel a bond growing between me and DD that i feel I am out of danger and that i won't make my DD go through what i went through.

As Nabster said most definately "Better the devil you know...."

I didn't want a DD as I didn't want it to be like my mother and me all over again. I find my boys easier. I love all of them but worry about DD. She is the only girl, the middle one and I know my MIL prefers the boys. Makes me think it would have been easier all round if I had just had boys.

I just looked at her and felt crap. I would go to the ends of the Earth for this child. Why should I let others spoil it?

I have fought for her as she has had medical problems.

My mother always brings up the time when I said in front of all her friends that I hated her. I was only about nine. I know to some extent it is normal to have negative feelings about your parents particularly in the teenage years. But why would I have said this at such a young age? Did I have an insecure attachment also?

Nabster - I feel the sense of rejection. My biological father left when I was a baby. I have never met him and don't know anything about him. My birth mother had schizophrenia so she didn't reject me as such but she couldn't give me what 'normal' mothers can. I never bonded with my adoptive parents and I always thought my biological grandfather didn't wnat to know me (although it has recently come to light that he would love to meet me, he has been kept away by my parents I think).

Rejection, rejection and rejection. That ugly feeling that plagues everyone on this thread I think. Most children grow up with an automatic sense of worth and esteem. We have to work at it.

I think there are a few type of mothers. Those who have had a normal childhood and adapt to motherhood well. Those like us who maybe have to work at some issues but have insight enough to overcome hurdles and be good mothers. Finally those who should never have had children. Who are damaged and don't have any insight into this. Who could never offer what a child needs.

My DH said he read somewhere about a very strong link to PND and difficult upbringings.

My mother remembers me telling her I would never forgive her for giving me up. She didn't seem that bothered but my social worker wasn't happy I had said it.

AN - I always play down my achievements and don't want to make people feel bad.

My mother used to jump in and spell words when I was asked to as a kid

I went to visit my parents when my DS was about 8/9 months. I was still finding it tough. I was supposed to stay for a week without DH and get some rest/help. I was met with coldness and a lack of warmth/joy to see me (although they were delighted with DS). I was told I looked awful and overweight. That I should make more of an effort for my DH. I was gutted and tried to defend myself by saying I thought I had looked nice at my DS Christening a few months earlier. My mother told me my footwear was inappropiate. My father said I should take my mother as an example, as she looks great for her age. I will never forget the smugness on her face. Even though I was breaking my heart, she basked in my father's praise and continued to put me down.

She has always found it difficult to praise me. I think she resents giving up her life for her children and for me (her grandaughter).

Oneplusone - facing the skeletons in your closet rings true. Mine involve the anger that used to boil inside me when DS would cry a lot or not settle as a baby. I am ashamed to admit at times I would lash out at him, be quite rough or nearly shake him .

My counsellor suggested I had to forgive myself. I admit it was wrong and hope I have dealt enough with my issues so that should this baby be unsettled, I won't get so angry and boil over. At least my DS won't remember those dark days, although at the time I am sure it unsettled him further. Consequently I will never hit/smack him now. However I am so ashamed of those moments.

I'm so tired but this thread has become so important to me that I want to keep posting as often as I can. AN, I was so moved by your post, and so very, very sad for you/the little girl that you once were but can't yet embrace. Yes, personally I do think that learning to love that little girl is fundamental to changing your relationship with your DD, and also to your own healing. You cannot carry around that much self hate and be happy. It is so wrong that your parents/old family made you feel that way about yourself. I think you posted a while back about whether to be angry at your parents or brother, seeing as it was your brother who hurt you the most (paraphrasing, but am I getting the gist of it right?) - to me, it always seems like it's the parents who are responsible for whatever happens when we are children. As you said, he was a child himself, and they should have been protecting you and setting boundaries for him. He was playing his role within the dynamics of the family they created. They were the adults in charge, and allowing, tolerating or ennabling one child to hurt another that much is the same as if they'd done it themselves, IMHO.

As for ideas of symbolic things to do - there's an exercise I've done quite a lot of to do with taking back projections, which might help. If you're interested I'll tell you more but getting a bit late now and it'll take a while to write it out so let me know if you'd like to know more.

I was defnitely our family scapegoat/whipping boy/sacrificial lamb and i was the youngest. Saw it happen with my nephew for quite a long time too tho things seem to have got better for him now, and he's the youngest. PurpleOne, I'm still digesting what you said about your DB - I was actually the third child tho I grew up in a family of two children, but I find it very hard to refer to the one who died as my sister, even though biologically she was. We weren't alive at the same time, I never had a relationship with her, and if she hadn't died I wouldn't have been wanted, conceived and born. So I have a very different idea of her to yours - it's very interesting that you see your DB that you never knew as someone who might have made your life more bearable; I have always seen my "sister" as a threat more than anything I suppose, as if I had stolen her life and one day she would come back to reclaim it. Other times I have thought she was the lucky one, to get out of that toxic family so damn quickly. But I know that all my feelings towards "her" are primarily a result of the way my parents handled (or didn't handle) her death/my subsequent life and teh (appalling) way they parented in general, rather than really anything to do with a little baby I never knew. I was told at the other end of the spectrum, far too early instead of far too late, when I was only 4. It was absolutely indigestible to a child of that age to discover that I was not "their daughter" but "their second, replacement daughter". (Quotes are mine, to indicate how I felt about it, not words my mother used.) I read somewhere once that children under 5 can only see things in black and white, as in good or bad - no inbetween - so if her death was bad, which it evidently was, and my birth had only come about because of her death, which was made clear to me - then my very existence must be bad. Shitty fing cs of parents, I am so angry with them. I am so angry at their lies and lies on top of lies. They try to make out it was a caring thing to do to tell me that young, "so it didn't come as a shock later". It wasn't. I can't go into that any more now. I don't know if anyone will understand this.

Nabster, it was lovely what you wrote about going to the ends of the earth for your DD. PinkyMinxy, I too thought the image of you leaving your old family in that dark room and going out into a sunshiny garden with your real family was beautiful. Hooray for these small (or not so small) victories.

nabster - your social worker indeed. I didn't know social workers were also part of the thought police. free speech?? You being allowed to voice your feelings?? I hope that person isn't in your life any more.

she is. We phone occasionally and send cards. I don't talk much about what happens as she "doesn't rememeber much" and thinks as I am not happilly married to a fabulous man, I should just concentrate on that.

So many things people have said have struck a chord with me.

Roseability, I like your description of the different types of mothers. And I agree with you. I have often thought to myself that my parents should never have had children as they are/were incapable of giving them what they needed. And I am absolutely convinced that there is a strong link between PND and difficult childhoods, although i haven't really come across anything saying that clearly. Can your DH remember where he read that? I would be interested in reading up about it.

And I totally understand what you say about all of us feeling rejection all our lives. Recently I have made some new friends and they are so positive and supportive towards me. It makes me realise what i have been missing all my life; they seem to value and like me for me, when i have done something good/clever they are able to praise me. They do not have issues which mean they always have to put me down to make themselves feel better, they are healthy people and our relationship is healthy and it is a revelation. I come away from times when we've met up feeling so good, so accepted, so valued, so appreciated. And not rejected, put down, criticised. They have no agenda; they are just nice, normal people and I realise that there must be others like that out there, not everybody is like my parents, my sisters and my so called 'friends' who have actually treated me very badly (have got rid of them now).

Your parents sound dreadful, how awful to put you down like that so soon after you had your DS. You do know that it's them and their issues and not you at all don't you?

AN, i think Bop is absolutely right, you need to find compassion and love for the little girl you once were and this will help you find empathy for your DD and improve your relationship with her. I think this is actually what has been at the core of the improvement in my relationship with DD. I feel so much sympathy and compassion for myself as a little girl, i keep imagining myslef at various different ages and i remember from photos i was a fairly cute, sweet little girl and i feel so sorry for what she went through.

Do you have any pictures of yourself as a little girl? I think looking at childhood photos is a good way of 'connecting' with that little girl; that's what i do although i don't actually have any photos i can remember what i looked like in photos my parents had at home. I actually want to ask my parents for all my childhood photos but am not sure how to go about asking them.

Bop, i do feel i understand how you felt about how your parents handled the death of your older 'sister.' Although it's not an experience i've had myself. But i can see from what you've said that your parents gave no thought to 'you' and the child you were. Of course it was totally impossible for you to 'digest' (I like that word) what they were telling you at the age of 4. They were telling you not for your benefit but for theirs. In some way telling you was perhaps easing their pain/guilt? about your sister's death and they were trying to pass off their difficult feelings onto you and it seems they succeeded. You then felt bad after they told you and it was nothing to do with you, certainly not at that age. They were not thinking of you and your needs, they were clearly still too wrapped up in issues to do with your sister to really 'see' that they had an innocent, vulnerable 4 year old girl who needed to know she was loved and wanted by her parents.

PinkyMinxy, a while back you brought up an image of your mother's hands with her fat fingers, and I can't get it out of my head. You were talking about feeling revulsion for them, and I think you asked if that made sense. Well, it does to me. To me, it would be sympbolic of the revulsion you feel for the way she treated you. A mother's hands are supposed to protect and care for her child, to show love and gentleness and provide safety. Doesn't sound like that was what you got at your mother's hands. If she was cruel and emotionally violent to you, if she used her hands to hurt you, as she obviously was and did, then her hands would appear repulsive to you. It's not that there's anything horrible about her hands/fat fingers per se; if she had had exactly the same hands and given you the love and care you needed and deserved, you would picure them with the profoundest love and warmth. The fact that you feel the opposite is a proof of the hurt you went through. As others on this thread have said, it takes a lot to shake a child's love for her mother - we go on loving them and hoping and believing in them even when they give us no reason to, because we are biologically wired that way, so it's actually very hard to feel the real pain underneath. This is an image that allows you to access those negative feelings. Maybe it's another form of projection/pegging - you project/peg the negative feelings that you have for her in general onto her hands at at time when you don't have the safety to acknowledge that those feelings are about the whole person.

Don't know if this is helpful or not; but it's been rumbling away inside my head since you posted about it so I thought I'd share it with you.

OPO, cross posts, thank you for those words - and yes, you're absolutely right, they were telling me for their benefit, and they did dump all their unresolved (undigested!) feelings about it all onto me, and there's a whole theme there but haven't got time to go into in any further for now, DS is up and doing. But thanks again, it's so good that you can see those points.

Although Oneplusone lets be glad your parents did have children in that you are here and breaking the horrible cycle of emotional deprivation.

It really strikes me that all the posters on this thread (I am not big headed enough to include myself!) are very bright. I can tell by the insight you all have and the way you write about your feelings.

It does seem a common theme in dysfunctional families, that one child is given the gift of insight and emotional intelligence and they go on to break the cycle of dysfunctionality. This is possibly why that child feels the pain more deeply.

My DH read it on the BBC website. He usually sends me a link but forgot this time (I am a bit cross about that!). I tried to look for it, but can't find it anywhere. Will let you know if I find it.

If I was a health visitor and screening women for PND, I would ask them about their childhood and family life. Of course some mothers might not want to discuss it and that is fine but those questionnaires are far too simplistic IMHO

Bop yes it does make a lot of sense, about my mother's hands.

Had a strange day. Got to therapist. Keep getting lost/disorientated when I go there. It's just up the road but I get very muddled up and go down the wrong road.

It is strange but every time I say something bad about my parents I feel bad. I feel like I had a happy childhood and I am making it all up for attention. But why would I do that? So I start thinking I have some sort of mental disorder. I then decide eveyone would be better off without me, that I should disappear. But then I think of how that would make DH and the children feel and I feel trapped in a situation I cannot resolve. Then I feel guilty for thinking of my lovely little family as a trap.

I am stuck in a loop. All because I am scared of my mother, of saying 'no' to her. It seems I would rather contemplate suicide than actually say 'no' to her, to say that I feel better when I don't have any contact with her.

I am such a coward.

I cleared out my wardrobe today and found my old teddy bear. I sat in the wardrobe and cried and talked to him. It was what I used to do when I was little. I would tell him that it would all be ok and that I loved him. I used to hug him really tightly and imagine he was hugging me back.

I found myself saying it's ok, mummy loves you really over and over again. I don't know where it came from, somewhere very deep down,it seemed instinctive. I think I used to try to mother myself.

This is a conflict that I have going on. I know the things my mother and father used to say were wrong, and I don't say these things to myown children, so why do I believe the things they said to me- that it was my fault, that I was wrong, unlovable etc.?

PinkyMinxy - We are conditioned to believe that our parents are right, all loving and worthy of respect. By society, by biological conditioning and by a survival instinct. To go against these deep instinctive feelings is so so difficult.

However once you can break free of this trap (for this is the trap, not your own family) you will find things easier. You are not bad for telling the truth about your childhood. I remember wanting to tell my therapist that I wished my parents were dead that I believe I had been abused. I was too scared to say it, probably for the same reasons as you.

You are not a coward. Your suicidal feelings and lack of self worth are because you were denied the most basic, but most important human need of a loving mother and childhood. You are brave because you are dealing with these feelings by seeking therapy. YOU DO NOT have a mental disorder. People who had normal childhoods do not grow up feeling like this about their parents.

You keep working at this and allow your feelings. I used to rely on my childhood pet cat for comfort, just as you had your teddy. If this cat was still alive, it would trigger deep emotions for me. You are not the only one and are not abnormal in any way. We all have that little girl in us, who just wanted to be loved and accepted.

Don't feel guilty about your family. When you are trying to deal with such exhausting emotions, looking after your family can seem a real burden. I am sure this is why I had PND. I just wanted head space to deal with my sadness but I had a colicky baby to look after. I wish in a way I had dealt with my childhood issues before DS was born, but then it was him being born that triggered it and for that I thank him because it forced me to face up to it.

You can't change your mother or your childhood but you have a family of your own now and the strength to give them what you didn't have. Be proud of yourself and never doubt that your parents were wrong.

No amount of money, success or beauty can make up for giving the most important and beautiful gift of a loving mother to a child. This does not mean you have to be perfect all the time (boy have I had bad mummy days!) but you have the insight to be a better mother than your own mother.

I find the mere presence of my mother repulsive sometimes, so I understand the hands issue, especially if those hands were used to be cruel to you.

A big hug to you