When women won't talk

[morethanjustadad]

Hello girls, I?d like a female take on this one,particularly from girls with a similar tendancy. Although any males out there with a similar issue please feel free to pitch in.

It?s quite simple really, my DW and I are a bit odd. I?m from Venus and she?s from Mars?.. although not always and not in every way. I still retain that age old male trick of wanting to fix things of wanting to provide solutions, my DW still wants me ?just to listen and empathise?. But that?s where it kind of stops. My DW just wants me to ?listen and empathise? when she wants to rabbit on, but she?s not interested or can?t bring herself to be proactive in sitting and talking through the things that are important to her/us and sharing dreams and plans together.

We?ve had a topsy turvy while in the last three or four years, due mainly to family and other crises on her side of things. To me, that's not been a major problem, as a loving partnership you have your ups and downs and you deal with them together ? ? for better or worse? ? that?s what we signed up for.

However, my DW at times like this tends to retreat into herself, shut me out ? and others and makes herself ill and depressed. She can be very stubborn, or determined, or self reliant, depending on which way you want to view things. Normally, my reaction is to try to do the ?Venus? thing and provide her with as much support through listening as I can.

However, after several years and many, many such instances I?m getting very frustrated of constantly providing this kind of unconditional support, whereby I have to try to prise information and conversation out of her with a can opener.

So, the question really is this ? we?ve all read John Grey & Debora Tannen on what to do ?when men won?t talk?, but how do you reverse that and deal with ?Women who won?t talk?

When you say she is "ill and depressed" do you mean she has a diagnosed clinical depression? If so (or if this is suspected) she needs professional help. If she is depressed then her motivation to communicate will probably be limited.

Perhaps if she feels low then talking about dreams and plans as you mention are irrelevant to her, as she may well feel very negative and hopeless about the future.

If she is not depressed, have you considered relationship counselling? imo if neither (or one of you) would consider it, then you have to assess whether either or both of you want to continue with a meaningful relationship.

Hope you get further advice.

Onepiece, yes diagnosed as such and undertaken counselling and various course of medication. Which do seem to help the physical manifestation of depression but don't seem to have helped alter the underlying reluctance to open up. Of course, I know and have experienced the potential stress that my then wanting to talk with her about a variety of things can then cause, hence the several years of "unconditional" listening.

I don't know if you ever can be fully cured of depression or if it is a state which simply recedes until the next crisis.

hmm an interesting one this!
you sound as if you are going about things the right way
but i also have a tendency to retreat into myself to a certain extent
i'm more likely to open up to one of the girls
but there again im divorced and couldnt properly sit down and discuss things with my ex but so wish that i could have done

There are no easy answers here, by the sound of it.

Does your wife have a CPN or other professional that she sees? You could probably access a "Carer Support Worker" to talk through some of these issues as this type of professional will be used to advising carers and partners.

Ask you local mental health team for further information if you are interested. Alternatively perhaps some counselling for yourself just to talk things through and explore other stratgies?

Most commonly people have episodes of depression, some quite long lasting. If it seems that she is never "cured" or never really well, perhaps the treatment isn't effective. Or (more likely) there may be other issues, perhaps she has unresolved issues from her past perhaps?

Why won't she open up?

• upbringing was to bottle things up/make do and mend so opening up makes her feel uncomfortable and weak and whingy?
• she finds it hard to express her thoughts and feelings so trying to open up makes her feel angry and frustrated?
• she feels guilty loading it all on to you?
• you aren't quite as good a listener as you sound? if you are having to 'prise information out of her with a can opener' then maybe she does NOT want to share it with you, you are making her do something against her will

You can't solve the 'problem' of her not sharing with you unless you understand why it happens. Shy doesn't she want to talk to you? what does she think will happen if she does? how does she feel about this?

Some people cope BETTER with bottling things up. Let her be who she is.

Onepiece, spot on again. She has/does have ongoing support for this "issue" (inappropriate term -apologies) and it would be fair to suggest that we are aware that there might be some unresolved family issues from way back. Nothing abusive or of that nature, more lack of attention and requirement to be self reliant as a youngster.

Blondie ('xcuse the familiarity)don't suppose you have anything to add on talking things thru with the girls as opposed to with males. I fully appreciate that not every male wants to or is prepared to talk the way I am.

I suppose another thing to add is that this is where the"Martian" side does kick in, my DW readily acknowledges her unresolved issues but doesn't seem able to resolve them or to try to work with me on them.

I would tend to agree with missings post.

Your dw sounds very much like me,I don't tend to open up to my dh,most probable cause is that I don't feel the need to discuss all my inner feelings and thoughts.

I have suffered with 'issues' and depression also,my dh has learnt that I will talk when I feel like it and not to push me into it as it does make me frustrated and pressurised.

Posh and Missing, appreciate your point of view, however as my DW's lack of inclination to talk things out often leads to major problems and stresses not just for herself but for myself and our DC, stresses which can be avoided.

Sadly experience has shown that my DW does not cope better with bottling things up otherwise she wouldn't have the regular appointments with either the Doctor or Counsellor.

I DO understand what you suggest - not pressurising. Posh, unfortunately my DW won't come out when she's ready even if she's left on her own.

Onepiece, you raised the question of a meaningful relationship continuing... we have both invested far too much in our relationship for that to be a problem in the short term (we're determined to work on things), however I do sometimes wonder for how long I will be able to keep providing the support "unconditionally" and not see any meaningful change.

morethanjustadad

Consider whether you are exacerbating your DW's reluctance to expose herself to you with your superior and dismissive attitude to her vulnerability.

you say:

when she wants to rabbit on,

that's not very nice. You are dismissing her style of communication as "rabbiting"

you say:

We?ve had a topsy turvy while in the last three or four years, due mainly to family and other crises on her side of things.

here you style yourself as a tolerant martyr of problems solely caused by her. picking up on this attitude will not help her to open up.

you say:

To me, that's not been a major problem,

So it is a problem. You think she is a problem, her issues are problematic for you. very encouraging.

you say:

makes herself ill and depressed.

"Makes herself"?!?!? deliberately? Because she enjoys it? To annoy you? not dealing with everything your way does not mean she is deliberately sabotaging her own mental health.

you say - more than once - "unconditional" (listening, support). Rubbish. none of the support and listening you provide seems to be remotely unconditional. it seems to be highly conditional on the basis that she accepts that you are wise, she is foolish; she brings problems, you bring solutions; she "makes herself" ill, you long sufferingly put up with it; she "rabbits", you denigrate.

I am not surprised she can't talk to you. and not surprised she is counselling to talk to someone else.

Vezzie - thanks for your very helpful comments.

IMO your first mistake was reading (and believing) the Mars and Venus John Grey crappola.

Other than that... what Vessie says really....

Also, I don't think I have seen the female mumsnet posters refer to themselves and each other as "girls" much. Maybe not a good start. Just a thought.

I had group psycotherapy (spelling) which really really helped with my depression it also meant that I started being able to talk to other people about how I felt. This was very different to counselling.

Ok. I didn't come here for a fight so I'll respond to the last two posts and say no more on that side of things.

Grey & Tannen - DW's suggestion, we both read through, don't believe it all, but some strikes a chord.

If either of you read my OP you'll notice that I do not dismiss my wife's style of communnicating - her words " just listen while I rabbit on".

Can't see how stating facts - we've had crises on her side of family - is blaming, it is simply a statement of fact which I'm not going to detail. I didn't say they were her problems, I said WE'VE had crises.

Crises by definition are problematic.

I do say that my DW shuts me and others out and makes herself ill and depressed. I don't say deliberately, because she enjoys it or to annoy me - please don't go reading things into my post that aren't there. At no point do I say or even suggest that there is anything deliberate about this.

And yes, I do use the word unconditional on more than one occasion. And sorry, but it is not rubbish. I mention the last 3 or 4 years, however my DW has suffered from some from of depression for at least 6 now and has acknowledged that my support has been unconditional and very appreciated - yes, sure I like to look for solutions, because that's my way - but I have learned over the years that it is not hers and have acted accordingly.

I do not denigrate my DW, I do not think she is foolish, I do not think SHE is a problem, I am simply attempting to find constructive ways of living with someone who wants to but cannot open out and share their feelings with the person that they say they want to.

Vessie, I've read one or two of your own threads, please don't project yourself on others.

morethanjustadad

I really did learn how to talk about how I feel and it wa a huge part of improving my depression otherwise all that anger was projected inwardly onto myself.

Therapy can't hurt and hopefully your dw would find it immensely better than counselling, I would see if she would ask for a referral.

Now have you got any tips on getting my dh to listen to me without him feeling like it's all his fault/too upsetting etc etc

Cargirl, my DW has also had psychotherapy and it does make a difference, thanks for that. Did you find though that the benefits/changes came in small increments and that there were often times where you felt as though you were "backsliding"?

I'm a divorcee so know how to get it wrong. But I now think did I even know my husband in the last months of our marriage.

I'm dating again and the great thing about dating is you don't go to deep to quick. You slowly get to know one another - you arrange baby sitters, you meet as adults to discuss adult stuff not the kids, you do the whole wonderful romance thing.

Could you try dating again? Make some regular adult time, not talk depression, or issues, just slowly get to know one another again as adults?

Cargirl,

from what you say it sounds as though your DH cares very much, if he feels guilt or gets too upset. In our case, I guess we managed to overcome that by me simply "steeling myself" and gritting my teeth at first and seeing how it went.

I'm not the world's greatest risk taker, more of a minimiser and I did feel that it was a huge risk not to try to find a solution everytime. We men are like that, it's in our genes.

Particularly when we try things the female way and we don't get "instant" results. Then we drop back into the 'default' solutions mode.

I guess a lot depends on how much you love each other - we have been together for 20 years now and we love each other a lot. We work hard at our relationship.

A couple of years ago, one of crisis involved a situation over which we had no control, but one in which my DW was expected and wanted to give lots and lots of support to other people - at the expense of our DC and myself. Solutions weren't an option for me on that occasion, there was nothing I could do to make things easier, so learned to live with it and just 'be there".

If your DH can try to curb his natural, protective, nature and try to understand that there are things which are beyond his control and that sometimes you just have to let that be - he might be able to feel less inclined to guilt.

Sometimes it's a very big leap or a very big breath he has to hold, but doing so can pay off.

Im guessing that Blondie refers to me lol!
in my case i just didn't see the point in talking to my exh as invariably i was wasting my breath and then he'd start off on one
i just find my girl friends less judgmental and their solutions/suggestions more reasonable and workable iyswim
saying that i do have very good male friends as well who i can openly discuss things with but obviously their emotional investment in me is purely friendship based
and as i have spent the greater part of my adult life with exh i guess that i can only use him as a benchmark
hope that is of some use to you
we could do with a posting from solidgold now

aseriouslybm - I was reading your post and thought "hmm, solidgold would probably give good advice on this!" - then I read your last line.

morethan, hope you find some solutions, wishing you and your dw all the best. 20 years is a long time, far more than some of us I expect.

great minds then lol

I don't really have any advice for you MTJAD, but I wanted to let you know that I think you do sound as though you genuinely want to help your DW. I know how hard it is living in a home where somebody has depression. Thankfully, in my case, it is not DH so we are able to support each other when the other person is making life hard. And before anyone flames me for saying that, yes, OUR life is made difficult by the depressed person but we know they don't do it on purpose and we don't put any blame onto them. However, the plain fact is, it does make life hard for everyone who lives in the home. We are all affected by it. I don't know how to encourage your wife to open up more, I know the person in our home doesn't open up to me or DH except on very rare occasions. Usually they talk to their therapist. You clearly love your wife very very much and I am sure that she knows this even if at times she appears to do otherwise. I don't know what else to say except to carry on supporting and loving her so that she knows you are on her side and when she does talk, even if only tiny bits, encourage her to open up to someone, maybe more theray?

BAck from School stuff.

Yes I did backslide.

I had group therapy (the most beneficial in getting me to talk to others because it was facing my fear of speaking out loud to others about how I felt) for 2.5 years then a gap of a year then individual therapy.

Again about a year after my indivdual therapy I had got myself into the downward spiral again.

Dh does care about me but he does find it hard to listen to me as he interprets it as being "his fault" and that he has "fix" it all when most of the time it's nothing to do with what he's done/who he is etc!

Cargirl,
I think I can relate to your DH a bit. Seeing someone you love having difficulties like these and being powerless to help is quite a difficult thing to accept - especially for a bloke - we tend not to do helplessness very well!

The need to "fix" things is a natural guy thing, how I deal(t) with that is by actually taking a deep breath and counting to ten or twenty - in order to stop my self jumping in.

Another thing that I do which might be an idea for your DH is to think about what I might want to say when we aren't talking together or when we are having difficulties - when I am on own - and then to make a conscious effort not to interprupt, not to comment. In this sense it is a classic male/female situation where males need to learn just to listen, without comment - dare I say, he might also learn to "fake it" a wee bit. i.e. to pretend to himself that he's not feeling guilt -even tho' he might.

If he can make it through a couple of occasions where he doesn't interrupt and where he "bites his tongue", it might become easier.

What also helps is if you are able at some point, perhaps not immediately, but later at an "unconnected' time to thank him for doing so - to let him know that you appreciate it.

That can do wonders for making progress on many fronts.

sayithowitis,

from what you say, it's obvious you know where I'm coming from. We are all affected by it. Thanks for your kind words.