Have confronted a toxic parent and I don't see how we can go on from here...

[bohemianbint]

Don't know if you've seen my many other threads re my dad and SM (recent one re childhood) but it's all just come to a head.

Parents live round the corner and have been weird with us all year. We've had many issues but mainly that they have basically after helping with DS1 they have all but ignored DS2. I've just asked my dad this morning if there is a problem and what's going on and it went very badly.

The incidents that I brought up he tells me I've either imagined them, they didn't happen, I'm taking things out of context or am overdramatic. He told me that with DS1 I "complained" all the time but wouldn't ask for help. When he says they "offered help" (what he means by this is he told me to use formula/leave new baby to cry etc, he does not mean actual useful, practical help) I responded wrongly so now no one will "help".Is it just me - I feel like it's a sick game; because I didn't try all the fucking barbaric advice I was offered they decided they wouldn't offer help. My SM has, from what we can tell, taken things we have said, twisted them and told people things that are not true and have made them (probably) hate us.

Anyway, this post isn't all about the whys and wherefores, I've learnt from other MN threads and that Toxic Parents book that they are toxic and will not take responsibility for anything. I just need to know what I should do next. The conversation was interrupted but I don't want to talk to my dad without DH (he is incapable of showing any emotion, empathy or concern and just makes me feel like I'm going mad, or dreamt everything.)He actually came to talk to me this morning, saw DH was here and drove home again and decided to phone so he could speak to me on my own.

I don't see how, without a mediator, that we can move on at all. He will not take anything that I say on board, demands that I back everything up with examples, which I do, to be told that am either lying or said examples didn't happen. He will not back up his statements with examples. He makes me feel like one of his patients, or some sort of lab study; we cannot communicate. It's looking like there's going to be no way through this to be honest, which makes me really sad, but I just don't see what the hell I can do.

Shoudl add - he wants to continue the conversation/character assassination later. I don't. Is there a way to get a 3rd party mediator?

Heavens, poor you - I've seen your earlier threads and couldn't add to what you were told then, but didn't want to leave this.

Perhaps this is a point where you need to stand up to him. Tell him firmly and clearly (and over and over again until he hears you) that you won't speak to him unless DH is htere.

But - and I thought this from your earlier threads - there may be no way forward for now, and that some kind of a break with them may be needed - just for a bit - to make them think about what they are doing. So you must be prepared for the fact that this might be the result of being firm. Or reasonable, as it's more normally called.

But you are right, and don't let go of that fact.

Oh, and also, perhaps you should think about what you want from them.

A complete acknowledgement that they have been an arse is pretty unlikely (I know this from my own experience, hell would freeze over before my father admitted as much). But how do you want your relationship with them to be in the future? If you can work this out, then you can proceed on your own terms.

My father only changed his behavious - and then not that much - when I did 3 years of counselling. But it mainly made me much better able to let it wash over me.

Why can't you just see less of them for a while and accept you don't get on brilliantly and see things differently?
Alot of people who want to see counsellors/ mediators re their parents seem to think that will make their parents see their point of view more/ change and become the parents they want them to be. It's often more about just accepting the way your parents are and seeing less of them if you don't like it. If your parents aren't that into their grandchildren accept it and make sure you don't spend much time with them and spend more company with people who like your kids. One set of my ex's grandparents didn't like children much. They also didn't like my ex's parents and sibs visiting. His parents just avopided them and my ex had a godd (ish) relationship with them when he was older, although he always got on better with the other set of more child orientated grandpanrents, although I preferred the nonchild friendly ones as they were more interesting with alot of hobbies and friends as their lives hadn't revolved around their extended family.
My kids are still young, but when they are older I wouldn't be happy if they wouldn't see me without a spouse being present.
Get a bit of distance from them, psychologically if not physically.
I think people who live very near their parents often have more issues like this as they never properly separate from their parents and remain overly concerned with their parents opinions and approval.

Oh dear, how upsetting.

I was 'lucky' enough to have two 'toxic' parents, and learned (finally) that I had to change my interaction, expectations and to limit contact. I didn't treat them as the parents I wanted them to be because they simply weren't and were never going to be. They would never see things 'my' way, and to continue trying was deeply upsetting and futile.

Stop struggling. Stop trying to ask/explain and get them to understand. See them, but keep it brief, cordial and superficial. Surround yourself with other people who are kind, sympathetic, supportive and loving (the difference of the family you were born with, and the family you 'make' from friends).

It's heartbreaking, but that is the only way I found to move forward in an emotionally healthy way.

your situation seems horrible i'm glad i get on with my parents and in laws. although i can sort of see where they may be coming from. (please don't shoot me, just an opinion). they were giving you advice, to let the baby cry etc. and you didn't take it. as this was your pfb they had experience of parenting that you didn't. as you didn't take their "barbaric" advice they probably don't think they should give it again.

if you think about it in another situation, i found out my friends partner was cheating on her. i told her and she confronted him, he admitted it, said he loved her and would never do it again, she stayed with him and i feel like a plonker for telling her to leave him. if i came across him at it again, do you think i should tell her or just butt out, as she just ingored my advice the first time?

I'm a bit concerned about the frequency of the use of the term "toxic parent" on this message board. It does seem to imply a degree of good/ bad psychological splitting. The "child" feels they are in the right, perfect etc and the "toxic" parent is the big, bad wolf. Life is rarely that simple.
Most people have good and bad traits.
Parenting views have changed alot in the past 2 generations. Leaving a baby to cry/ suggesting formula if you were moaning about breastfeeding isn't barbaric and evil. It's just the parenting techniques of that generation.
As a baby I was put in the pram for hours outside every afternoon. My mum did that because all the mums did that. She wasn't evil, just a 1960s mum.
I also think as a parent you have to ask for help if you want it, not wait for it to be offered. Most people are too bound up in their own lives to notice if someone else needs help in theirs.

BohemianBint,

They have come out with the usual responses that toxic people come out with. They ahve a script. The sad truth is, they do not care how you feel so confronting them will not change a thing but it will bring you another venomous outburst. They cannot change, don't want to change. You can't do anything about toxics, but you can take care of yourself.

I see you're thinking of using a mediator - even if these people were to agree to any sort of mediation (which they will not because these people are actually incapable of accepting any responsiblity for their own actions, let alone reasoned argument) it still won't help. They won't listen to any mediator either, they do not want to change.

I would suggest cousnelling for your own self to talk about your toxic parents, it could be cathartic to you to get it all out in a controlled environment.

All you can do is protect you and your own family unit. Build a life without toxic people like your Dad and Stepmother in your daily lives.

Don't let your Dad in your house particularly if he still wants to do the cahracter assisnation on you. You wouldn't take this from a friend, your Dad is no different in that regard. Also get caller identity on your phone if you don't already have it.

2 rebecca

Many people who thank God do not come from families where such dysfunction is a daily occurence may emotionally baulk at the use of such a term. As it has not happened to them they cannot comprehend these types of situations in other families.

This is not just about good and bad traits, leaving a child outside for the afternoon. That's not toxic parenting.

The phrase toxic parent was coined to describe parents whose own negative behaviour grossly inflicts emotional damage which contaminates their children's sense of self.
This means parents who abuse their children verbally, physically and/or sexually, as well as parents who are inadequate or ignore their children's emotional needs. Sometimes these patterns are so established they continue into adulthood, and often are either not recognised or addressed.

There are some toxic parents whose consistently negative patterns of parenting leave a legacy of guilt and shame within their children, and worse still there are parents whose outright cruelty would be considered illegal if exhibited toward animals, let alone their own children.

Where do parents like this learn these despicable patterns of behaviour?

Yes, you are quite right! Usually from their own parents, who in turn, learned it from theirs. However, few people make the connection between their parent's parenting style and their own emotional problems. Often, these emotional difficulties only become apparent to them as they become parents themselves.

BB's situation is about far more than just feeding baby. What do you yourself make of parents who deny all accusations and reasoned argument saying that "this never happened", "you're overreacting" etc?. How would you feel?.

2rebecca - it's not like I've lived forever in the coat tails of my parents - I left home like a shot at 18 and was gone for the best part of 10 years. It's just unfortunate that the man I met lived 2 miles from them!

We didn't refuse help, I simply did not take advice which did not sit well with me. As a result, they withdrew any practical help, which they had previously given.

We have recently backed off massively but the fact that they live round the corner doesn't help. We are looking into moving far away asap and this is one of the reasons. It's come to a head because they wouldn't talk to us about our wedding, so we booked it, and now they're having a go at us for booking it and they want control of our guestlist even though we're paying!

They put me into situations where I just can't win, but hard to cut them out when they are capable of just dropping in if they feel like it.

Thank you Atila (you're always so helpful when I post about this stuff!) and earlybird - how did you find your cousellor? Sorry to hear you had two of them to deal with.

Blondie - really sorry, I don't quite get the analogy!

How upsetting for you. I am very 'lucky' that my father lives miles away and I don't have to ever see him, so I don't.
I know he woudl never have admitted anything other than being a perfect parent so years ago I gave up trying. I think you need to accept that they are never going to apologise for it or change and try and deal with it from that standpoint.
I was the same as you re contactability (IYSWIM) before I cut my father off and either left answerphone on or had DH answer the phone for about a month so I didn't have to speak to him before he got the hint. I would also not asnwer the door to him (using spyhole) if DH was not in. He woudl know I was there and would then call but DH woudl explain that he si not allowed in without him present.
Luckily for me, although DH would dearly love to rip into my father he can restrain himself to be icily polite.

bohemian, basically if you gave someone advice and they ignored it. would you try give them the same advice again?

Why can't you just say no to them wanting control of your guest list, and why can't you just tell them it's your wedding so you're booking it? If my parents had asked for control of how either of my weddings was arranged they would have been told no, even though they paid towards the first one. It does sound as though you feel guilty about telling your father he can't have what he wants though, and that that is the problem, not his behaviour. In both of my weddings my husband and I decided what sort of wedding we wanted and the parents were presented with a "this is how it's going to be" scenario. You sound as though this would have been difficult for you because you sound upset that they wouldn't talk to you about your wedding before you booked it.
I think weddings now are greatly different to weddings 40 years ago and you have to make it clear to your dad that this is your wedding, you are paying for it, and you will decide on its format.
I think moving sounds like a good idea.

blondie i think what the OP was saying was they offered crap advice which she ignored so then they refused to give any other help, not just advice

bohemianbint - Where do you want to go from here?

blondie - I try never to give people unsolicited advice as I find it pisses people off! However, if someone I cared about was having a tough time I would ask them if there was anything I could do to help. Not play mind games with them. I see what you're saying, but I think it's more complicated in this case.

DH is really angry with them - I doubt they'd play silly games with him to quite the same extent, but even so. I guess what I would like is for them to acknowldege, in some small way, that they are not perfect and this is not all our fault. And I think I have to realise that this is not going to happen and I have to move on, probably leavign this conversation with my dad half started. I imagine this may mean not having any of my family at our wedding. Which is a shame, but again, what can I do about it if they choose to believe the propaganda machine that is my SM and not check with us if any of it is actually true?

maybe it's not the fact that they believe your sm but would prefer not to become involved and take sides? therefore not ringing to see if things are actually true.

my aunt and cousin are like this, they slag each other off, say the other one is lying and making stuff up. if i'm with either of them i just try to change the subject and not get involved. but the truth is they have both been caught out lying etc by different family members, it's their relationship that is being destroyed.

bb, was it you who wrote about not being given a key to get in after school? ANd you needed to ask us if that was cruel behaviour (yes, it was I think was the consensus).

Your dad make you question yourself, forces you to standards that he himself does not uphold and shows no empathy, and tries to get to you when you are alone.

Please look at Joanna Ashmun's website about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - google her name, it comes up. You may find it rings bells regarding your dad.

If he is anything like my NPD dad, then you are better off taking him for what he is (ie completely self-centred and unlikely to change) and ignoring him forevermore. Might sound extreme, but he is a nasty man.

I should also say that not everyone has been brought up by a poison-breathing dragon of a parent and therefore may not understand just how threatening it is to one's physical and mental health.

2rebecca

I am sure there are very many people who have had very good upbringings who do not have 'toxic' parents. This board is a help board for people who are in distress. There for by definition, there will be a much higher percentage of people struggling to come to terms with their truly appalling childhoods than in the general population.

The way these parents operate...and others who may or may not have Narcissitic Personality Disorder, which Bohemian bint's parents sound as thought they may have, is to isolate and confuse the victim. The victim is made to feel as though they are the one who is mad. This is the modus operandi of these people.

We are not talking here about the odd moment of annoyance, or changing styles of parenting. We are talking about very disturbed people and their effects on their children for the rest of their lives.

Did your parents make you feel as though you wanted to kill yourself, and then tell you it was all your fault? Are you on anti-depressants and having therapy with a clinical-psychologist because of your experience with your parents?

Many people are... when they pluck up the courage to post on a public forum for help, and for someone to say to them, perhaps for the first time in their lives...you are not crazy...it is very unhelpful for someone to come along and make sarcastic comments about the people who are trying to help them.

Many people on this board have had terrible experiences, and we are just trying to reach out and help somone else who sounds as though they are going through something similar.

The point about these people is that they all sing from the same hymn sheet, which is not surprising given that they probably all suffer from the same disorder. Victims who have lived though this can recognise these manipulative and cruel behaviours and so try to help.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Oh and PS...no they do not have good traits!!!!

None!

mitford - yup, that was me with the key business. And thank you for that link - it was very, very interesting and an awful lot of it sounded quite on the money. Especially the parts about Narcissists not talking about dreams, or memories, or past life, or friends; my dad is dismissive, offhand and almost rude if I ever ask him anything about mine (or his) childhood.

Gettingagrip - nearly 10 years ago I was depressed and on anti-d's and a lot of it had to do with my childhood and specifically my father's attitude to me. Bearing in mind he works in psychiatry he told me "no one ever said life was supposed to be good, it's shit, pull your socks up and deal with it" and staunchly refused to tell me that he loved me during one conversation where I was begging him to tell me if he cared about me at all.

I spoke to my mother who thinks that we have to act in a way that is morally above reproach, in that we shouldn't should the door but be very clear on who we are and how we do things, and that's that.

I find it hard not to be angry about it, and am quite interested to find out how I can rise above it in practical terms. Very hard not to be angry with people who abuse you, I guess I'm just not that evolved yet.

I really really feel for you bohemianbint.
I don't have toxic parents myself (although I could complain about them 'til the cows come home).
I also don't really know your whole story but my DH had a toxic father. I have seen the immense psychological (and physical but not by his own hand) damage that has occurred due to him. My sil has been in a secure unit for a year due to this. At 10 years old she contemplated suicide - that's how bad it was. (and of course when she asked for help he told her not to be stupid there was nothing wrong).

This man has now passed away but his legacy lives on in his children (2 were targets and 2 have taken after him). When he was alive I would get furious daily with his horrendous guilt mongering, emotional blackmail and controlling ways but no matter what anyone did, there was just no getting through to him. He made me feel sick that he took pleasure in upsetting others. I have no idea what drove him.

Anyway I suppose what I'm trying to say is please keep your sanity and remember that many other people love you unconditionally. Try to rise above it as you are better than this. You can't change him but you can be nice to yourself and your own family.
(probably useless advice but just wanted to lend some support)